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Thread: UT Movement Mechanics Design

  1. #1
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    UT Movement Mechanics Design

    Movement Mechanics is the first design topic we will be focusing on. Epic’s team will be very actively participating in the discussions in this subforum.

    The UT Movement Mechanics subforum should be used for all discussions about the design of the core movement mechanics of Unreal Tournament. In some ways, it would have been nice to establish our open design process with a less controversial topic, but as movement mechanics are absolutely fundamental to the game and have major implications for other essential game systems (like level design and weapon design**), we really have to start here.

    It won’t be possible to end up with a result that perfectly pleases everyone. However, I know we can end up with mechanics that feel true to Unreal Tournament, are well balanced, and enable great gameplay. While of course with mods you’ll be able to customize the movement mechanics however you’d like, it’s still vital that we establish core movement mechanics that define Unreal Tournament for general gameplay.

    Please read these tips (link to sticky on how to contribute) on how to be an effective design contributor.

    The initial discussions on this forum will lead to a paper design that we will implement provide a rough initial implementation of in our Deathmatch Alpha. With the Deathmatch Alpha we’ll iterate on and polish the movement mechanics based on everyone’s feedback. Once the movement mechanic design is complete, we’ll also be able to establish level design guidelines and start working on weapon design and balance.

    We love seeing the movement prototypes being created! This is a fantastic way to experiment, and to demonstrate and iterate on your ideas. We'd love to see more people working on prototypes, or working with prototype developers on refining their ideas.

    With that out of the way, I’m going to summarize the movement elements we are going to be talking about:

    General Movement:
    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    • Jump height
    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)

    We can also certainly discuss and consider new movement elements.

    ** For example, the movement mechanics in UT2003 and UT2004 biased the game toward hitscan weapons, and also caused scale issue with interior levels which had to be built to support large scale jumps. This isn’t meant to bash those movement mechanics, which were also a lot of fun, but to point out the consequences of the design.
    Last edited by FIXMESTEVE; 05-14-2014 at 12:34 PM.

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    Thanks for your hard work

    I know this is a heated topic, after 10 years we still have two groups at each others throats

    And they're not always the most fun to deal with so with that in mind i wish you and your team good luck
    Last edited by tigerclaw; 05-12-2014 at 06:11 PM.

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    Look forward to trying the moves in deathmatch alpha. We can talk and talk about all these things, but a lot comes down to how it actually feels in-game too.

    Also I need to hold off making any real solid mapping decisions until the movement is pretty well established

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    Hey Stephen! The info is great. I have a question about posting etiquette regarding prototyping in Unreal Editor 4, I don't know if you've seen my video on the movement mechanics I've been working on using blueprints. But I was wondering that kind of content should be in this forum for movement mechanics or stay in the Work in Progress. Technically it isn't a discussion topic and it's development. But also it's designed simply as demonstrating movement options in the engine and I wouldn't imagine any of it will get pushed on github. So it's not technically Work in Progress since it isn't going to be further developed. If you'd prefer that kind of material here if a mod could move it that would be great.

    Thanks again.

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    I want to say thanks too. You guys are fearless taking on this task.
    I can only hope that somehow this community could be united.... all playing the same UT....
    Good luck.

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    Hello! This was my original post concerning the new UT movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by darksinn3r View Post
    In my opinion movement needs to be designed with animation in mind.
    There are two (at least) perspectives: yours and the enemy's!
    1. Regarding double-jump I propose the following: double jump needs to stay but will be used also as a defensive manoeuvre! I like to fly but I don't want to be killed in mid air .
    The initial jump should be high, approximately 70% of player's hight. The double jump should reach at 100% which is double the high of the player's model.
    It will be visually represented by a roll in mid air not like been propelled in mid air by invisible rocket busters.
    This will force the player to land at higher speed than just falling. It will be like a nerfed downwards dodge but will allow you to reach higher just like original double jump.
    2. The animation principle will be also applied into dodge. Your body will jump into 30-45 degree angle for 70% of your high then do a side roll in mid air equal to 1.7 times of your body high and then land the same way as you started.
    3. I think that dodge jump should be removed.
    4. Keep that wall dodge as it was!
    UT2k3 was the first ut I played against real players (not bots) and I was always amazed by the acrobatic animations of player models!
    My real suggestion here is to re-introduce those crazy animations!

    Also!

    • Running speed -- 2k4 or higher
    • Acceleration -- 2k4
    • Air control -- 2k4
    • Jump height -- my post above
    • Gravity -- ut3 (I want to feel able to perform all those crazy movements but not feel like floating...)
    • Dodging -- 2k4
    • Double jump -- my post above
    • Wall dodge -- yes
    • Impact/Rocket jumping -- yes!
    • Team boosting -- yes!
    • Ramp boosting -- yes!
    • Lift jumping -- yes! (on all lifts )
    • Jumppads -- yes!

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    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    Same as in UT200x, maybe a bit faster. But won't that make a normal dodge (if the same length in UT99/UT200x) less important for getting faster around the map?

    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    Instantly change directions. It is horrible when there is a delay. Feels like lag to me. Even if it is coded into it.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    Some but not to much. Can't really say it any better.

    • Jump height
    Just enough to hop over a rocket that is aimed at your chest.

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    UT2003

    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    Yes, UT2003 style.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    Yes, it takes predictability a bit more away when you see someone go in the air. Also when done next to a wall and someone expects you to do a wall dodge you have a bit more fall height to choose from when you wall dodge. Gives you more survival chance in a open area. Same for the Dodge Jump (double jump during dodge).

    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    Yes, it takes predictability a bit more away when you see someone go in the air next to a wall.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    Yes, it adds escape routes and trick jumping.

    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)
    Server based optional.

    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    Yes, it's fun.

    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    Yes, it's fun to catch someone with a upskirt shot with any type of weapon.

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)
    Yes, they provide some nice jumps, fun moments, quick movement and sometimes frustration.

    We can also certainly discuss and consider new movement elements.
    I personally like the sliding feature someone pointed out. That is if implemented correct. Crouching is already used often as a movement option to throw your opponent off. Sliding sounds to me like a crouching dodge, which could be fun.

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    Remove double jump, keep wall dodging
    Thank you Steve for the thread

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    Dont forget the shield jump from UT2003 and UT2004 please. Turned lots of tense duels with a surprise jump Was also funny failing the jump with low HP from time to time

    To the general movement I agree with the people posted above me. The boost jump was so awesome in UT2003, definitely give it a try in the next one!

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    "I have a question about posting etiquette regarding prototyping in Unreal Editor 4, I don't know if you've seen my video on the movement mechanics I've been working on using blueprints. But I was wondering that kind of content should be in this forum for movement mechanics or stay in the Work in Progress."

    It's great that you are prototyping movement ideas. This forum is definitely the right place to post on that topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vaderz View Post
    Dont forget the shield jump from UT2003 and UT2004 please. Turned lots of tense duels with a surprise jump Was also funny failing the jump with low HP from time to time

    To the general movement I agree with the people posted above me. The boost jump was so awesome in UT2003, definitely give it a try in the next one!
    Please do forget everything about the shield gun... in fact forgetting ut2k3 and 2k4 would be best in making this game successful.

    General Movement:
    Running speed -although I thought UT3 was by far superior in terms of movement to 2k3 and 2k4 it did feed a litter heavy sometimes, so i'd go ut99
    Air control -I would say one of the most popular mods for UT99 was bun*ny track. I think allowing people to have real control of where they land would bring that community to the game
    Dodging - UT99, fast and simple
    Double jump - The single worst thing you could do is reimplement the ability of being able to jump during a dodge. It made the game feel slower, made players more predicatable (despite the views of gitzz), made maps larger which turned ut into a completely different game where players spent 90% of matches running away from each other. I'd also strongly recommend not implementing double jump... its slow and just adds unecessary map design... "oh great a ledge thats slightly to high, guess i'll have to double jump that one".... adds nothing. Instead map designers should be thinking about power up control, weapon placements dodge distances etc.
    Wall dodge - you should keep this feature. It isn't game changing and is a nice little addition
    Impact/Rocket jumping - despite the views of 'gitzz' which i suspect isn't really him, the impact hammer is a great utility in game. It isn't meant to be used as a means of moving across the map... its to gain access to areas you are unable to get to from your current map position. You sacrifice 2 seconds of loading time to get a belt or to get up a level. You can easily get high boosts using the impact hammer with an almost instant cast.
    Team boosting - This is just silly, for starters it means you can just spam rockets anywhere you like with no chance of killing your team mates, secondly why bother with dodging or impact hammer when i can get across the map easily with a team mates rocket up my ****.

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    Ramp boosting - seems like it could promote lazy map designs, forget having to do a perfect wall dodge or quick switch to impact hammer and boost up... instead i'll just ramp dodge up there. Could be useful for ***** track but I would limit as to how much of a vertical lift you can get from this.
    Lift jumping - don't see why this is even up for discussion. lift jumping isn't game changing and as far as i'm aware its been in all uts without any complaints.
    Jumppads - this is a shooting game... leave the jump pads and boost pads for mario kart...

    I'm slightly biased i much prefer the movement in ut99 and i think UT3 was significantly better than 2k3 and 2k4. It doesn't mean that personally i'm not open to further suggestions or ideas on movement. I just think we should move away from boost dodging which was a terrible mechanic.
    Last edited by reloaded; 05-12-2014 at 08:43 PM.

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    I can get back to unreal tournament 2004.
    The spacemaps are epic where when outside you move slowly through space and are prone to shock rifles but inside you move and jump like normal.

    But in general it should just stay like ut2004 because i feel thats how UT should be. Double tap w a s or d dodges to that direction and if followed up by spacebar you move forward. This allows for some nice dodging and jumping around where players have little time to respond to "where is this player touching the ground again so i can hit my biocannon/flak grenade/rocket launcher in close combat.
    For the rest normal movement speed should remain desame too. The method i just destibed should again make people able to move a -little- faster.
    Also movement speed should definatly remain desame for every direction.

    With air/space control, again ut2004...you can move like normal but still have a little bit of influence.

    Double jump from double spacebar....i think it will be nice not really that important.

    Lift jumping: DEFINATLY! You die anyway when going down from high altitude but can still fire some snipes or rockets! Its also nice to snipe those persons down. Don't forget lift jumping!

    Jumppads: ofcource! In fact what would be the logic to remove this...i mean a map designer can put it in or not right?

    I'm open to sliding but we need to think about how to do that. I mean if all normal movements are desame, and there is no gain in running speed....why would we want to slide then? It would be desame speed but maybe making the character hitbox smaller? I don't know this could mess up snipings and stuff.

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    Steven

    There's another alpha testing solution which can be easily implimented for movement testing, without the use of weapons

    Bunnytrack, in a cut down form this UT99 mod is only about movement

    There are thousands of simple and complicated BT maps which can be taken from for testing, the inclusion of a single trace hit weapon such as primary shock also allows people to test hitting targets whilst moving, which is basically just testing mouse and keyboard co-ordination

    With this we can effectively test;

    All forms of dodging and jumping
    Ramp dodging
    Air control(a massively important factor in getting the feel of the movement right)
    Bounce pads
    Lift jumping

    Whilst bunnytrack uses flags there's no need for this, all we need are the obstacles

    Here's an example of some BT maps



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbr1KE-uLn8

    This way movement can be tested for longer and perfected easily, as there are many skilled UT players who focus on their movement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Polge View Post
    Movement Mechanics is the first design topic we will be focusing on. Epic’s team will be very actively participating in the discussions in this subforum.

    The UT Movement Mechanics subforum should be used for all discussions about the design of the core movement mechanics of Unreal Tournament. In some ways, it would have been nice to establish our open design process with a less controversial topic, but as movement mechanics are absolutely fundamental to the game and have major implications for other essential game systems (like level design and weapon design**), we really have to start here.

    It won’t be possible to end up with a result that perfectly pleases everyone. However, I know we can end up with mechanics that feel true to Unreal Tournament, are well balanced, and enable great gameplay. While of course with mods you’ll be able to customize the movement mechanics however you’d like, it’s still vital that we establish core movement mechanics that define Unreal Tournament for general gameplay.

    Please read these tips (link to sticky on how to contribute) on how to be an effective design contributor.

    The initial discussions on this forum will lead to a paper design that we will implement provide a rough initial implementation of in our Deathmatch Alpha. With the Deathmatch Alpha we’ll iterate on and polish the movement mechanics based on everyone’s feedback. Once the movement mechanic design is complete, we’ll also be able to establish level design guidelines and start working on weapon design and balance.

    With that out of the way, I’m going to summarize the movement elements we are going to be talking about:

    General Movement:
    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    • Jump height
    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)

    We can also certainly discuss and consider new movement elements.

    ** For example, the movement mechanics in UT2003 and UT2004 biased the game toward hitscan weapons, and also caused scale issue with interior levels which had to be built to support large scale jumps. This isn’t meant to bash those movement mechanics, which were also a lot of fun, but to point out the consequences of the design.
    Sorry, I did post this in another thread, but it's extremely relevant here. The vehicle section seems off topic, but it's not -- the movement of the game will dictate map sizes/scale and other design, which most definitely could affect vehicles and how they perform in contrast to how the player character performs....

    I'm not biased, I've literally played every single Unreal franchise game -- also, since the announcement, I've been playing them all quite a bit in rotation -- '99 -> 2K4 -> III, below is how I feel about all three NOW, no nostalgia goggles on.

    '99 is the best game in the series and UT3 has the best balance. The 2K series screwed the pooch/jumped the shark, especially so by adding in Onslaught.

    Onslaught is NOT Unreal. It's Halo/Battlefield. It's not an Arena based game, and since the weapons are designed around being trapped in an Arena, it's an awful game, it's a whole bunch of people running around with the Lightning gun/shock rifle, hitscanning you to death over huge distances... It's not fun.

    Now I'm not against vehicles outright, I'm more against the entire game mode of ONS/Warfare.

    Unreal Tournament and Unreal Tournament 2003 both have Assault mode... this mode is the one that should be fleshed out while ONS gets clipped.

    Vehicles can exist in Assault mode, just as long as they are only on some maps, and only for certain phases of the attack.... Like "Breach the fortress" -- okay, so we roll up in vehicles until we get inside, then the vehicles are done.

    2K's scaling was all messed up, the people too tiny because the maps too large, the movement speed on the tiny people too high, and the ability to change directions mid air with the double jump gave too many jukes. Jumping in an Arena game is supposed to be used tactically, being airborne is bad because there should be a rocket at your landing, also -- the higher your are, the easier you are to pick off with the LG/Sniper/Railgun. Allowing people to just change directions mid air ruins the entire delicate balance of the game and raises the skill ceiling beyond "Pro" to "Robot" levels.

    The other, not so obvious, but at the same time still glaring issue with 2K4, is that -- the added movement options, the extra jukes, destroy your ability to play online. At a ping of 100, you almost can't hit anybody with anything, because you have to lead your target, but how do you lead a target that can change direction at ALL times in angles as extreme as 90º/180º at will in all scenarios -- when they are in the air, by a wall, on the ground, nothing stops you from moving right and then going left, even in the air. There is no conservation of momentum, therefor, no reliable way to predict opponent movement, so ping advantage is the absolute strongest in the 2K series... This is a huge problem now, since most of the active servers ping over 100 for me, and I'm based out of Florida.

    The only way "Double" Jump could work, is if you didn't have air control on the second jump. The only way it could work, is if when you initiated the second jump, you kept the momentum you had prior to the second jump. Being able to jump forward, and then use your second jump, to jump backwards passed your starting point ruins your ability to predict movement, which is by and large a SUPER HUGE part of what makes arena games successful. Also, double jump height would have to be reduced, because the second side effect of the double jump, invalidates the use of rockets and other splash damage weapons by allowing you to extremely dampen the damage by jumping out of it's splash radius. This is why double jumping should be removed, or replaced by a powerup like the jump boots. [In UT4, we could have Jump Boots and Super Jump Boots, where normal jump boots, give you 6 double jumps and super jump boots give you 3 super jumps.]

    While the "Double Jump" and "Dodge Long Jump" are "cool" the damage they actually do to the weapon balance and your ability to predict player movement is waaaaaaay too severe, this is the reason why 2K only survives by ONS and Invasion. Because ONS has gigantic maps and being on foot is generally a death sentence since the vehicles are so strong, hitscan long range weapons like LG and Shock are dominant here when on foot, and over larger distances, it's easier to acquire your target/predict his movement, since he's generally focused on getting from A --> B and invasion because it was Coop, and you weren't shooting at other players that had these abilities. As much as the 2K only community is vocal, they are indeed the minority as all the '99 players and most of the III players agree that the double jump/long jump is what destroyed the continuity of the game.

    Also, if we look at all "Successful" arena games, they all have one thing in common, conservation of momentum. From Tribes --> Quake --> Unreal Tournament '99 --> CPMA they all have that one thing in common, you carry your momentum and cannot change on a dime. While CPMA gave you a metric ton of air control, you still had to maintain a vector. This allows opponents the ability to predict your movement. Same with Tribes, you had to maintain your vector, despite flying around with jetpacks, you couldn't be moving forward at 100mph and suddenly decide you wanted to move in the exact opposite direction and just bounce back on a dime, you'd come to a stop and then have to build your speed from scratch with a slow acceleration curve. Same with CPMA. And Quake, while it allowed you to move really fast, you couldn't change directions on a dime without doing a "trick" jump, which caused a hefty amount of damage to yourself, much like impact hammer jumping in UT. This is why UT '99 has the best foundation, because at it's core, it KNEW it wanted to be an Arena game -- the Dodge and Alt fire were it's gimmicks over quake, and even though the dodge gave you a juke, it was still VERY possible to predict player movement, because once you initiated a dodge, you were STUCK on your vector until you landed, same thing with Jumping, as long as you were airbound, you were predictable. In 2K, I could be running straight at you, Jump into the air, and then woopsie, jump again to the right, and literally change my vector by 90º instantaneously. You could also jump forwards, and then backwards, or forward and right, to back, you had waaaaay too much control and being in the air was no longer a deficit, but the SAFEST place to be, which is exactly 100% opposite of the very core that makes an arena game work... this invalidated every weapon that wasn't hitscan, and even made sniper shots virtually impossible to predict, the shots that land, are mostly luck that you guessed right than skill proving that you could aim. This also made the game exponentially harder the higher your ping was, because having a high ping = a delay, which means you have to LEAD targets, leading targets is impossible if they can change their vector at will.

    Wall Dodging was a SOLID gameplay mechanic and an overall improvement to the base game, it was only situationally useful and still left you vulnerable to prediction provided it didn't catch your opponent off guard.

    So in short, I don't care if you EFFIN LOVED 2k4, the design is broken logically, and if they choose this route as the base game [double jumps/dodge long jumping/ignoring the conservation of momentum] UT4 will be dead before it ever starts.
    General Movement:
    • Running speed -- Keep this very close to UT '99 [Not too much slower or faster, but start with '99's as the base and ultimately we have to make sure it feels genuinely good]

    • Acceleration -- All UT games have pretty acceptable baselines for movement acceleration.

    • Air control -- Should be 0 in the traditional sense. You should not be able to jump forwards and in the air move backwards. Slow your self down, sure, have control in curves, sure [Q3CPMA style] but you CANNOT have fluid air control that ignores the conservation of momentum, this is critical to the core enemy "prediction" part of the game. If someone is moving forward and they jump, they must maintain forward velocity, always, even if you don't remove double jumps, even if they can turn, IF they can turn, the turning arc should be shallow. CPMA or LESS. [Challenge Pro Mod Arena for Quake 3 is a great example of how to maintain the conservation of momentum, but allow players lee way to influence their direction, we're talking bank turns like an air plane or a car, not 90º turns like a UFO.] Your ability to predict the movement of your opponent is intrinsically tied to the concept of conservation of momentum. If players can air juke like the 2K series, the damage caused to the weapon balance and the reliability of player prediction is unfixable.

    • Jump height -- Doesn't matter very much, a slightly higher jump than UT '99 would be fine if we remove the double jump and have the gravity proportioned to NOT give you a ridiculous hang time, moon jumping should stay on the moon maps.

    • Gravity -- A little less heavy than UT III, UT '99 is probably the best baseline, but it should be tweaked to stay in proportion to the jump height. It shouldn't be floaty, but you shouldn't feel like you're legs are made of steel. If it's too floaty, jumping becomes too dangerous, if it's too heavy, jumping becomes too safe.

    • Dodging - This is perfect as is, in all games but could use it's own bind [shift + w/a/s/d] since double tapping isn't really intuitive to a lot of people and actual finger dexterity requirements will be different on every unique keyboard [some keyboards are really spongy with tons of space between pressed and not pressed, and some are hard contact style buttons with less distance to travel, if you have a spongy keyboard, UT is downright not fun to play.] Keep double tapping, but also add a "Dodge" modifier please.

    • Double jump -- REMOVED

    • Wall dodge -- Something in between 2K and III, less boosting on the way up and less absorption on the way down than UT 3.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping -- Rockets should maintain their suicidal damage, and therefor should not permit you to RJ. IJ is guaranteed.

    • Team boosting -- Is a fantastic addition to any Arena game, it adds a layer of teamwork to the Arena cake. Shock Rifle pushing/Rocket Bouncing are both solid options for team boosting. Shock Rifle helps you push teammates carrying objectives, you see this the most in InstaCTF/Freezetag game modes all the time, for boosting flag runners/moving frozen enemies around to more defensible locations.

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting -- Solid, keep it. [Core]

    • Lift jumping -- Solid, Keep it. [Core]

    • Jumppads -- Solid, Keep it. [Core]
    Last edited by Laokin; 05-12-2014 at 09:48 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Polge View Post
    ** For example, the movement mechanics in UT2003 and UT2004 biased the game toward hitscan weapons, and also caused scale issue with interior levels which had to be built to support large scale jumps. This isn’t meant to bash those movement mechanics, which were also a lot of fun, but to point out the consequences of the design.
    The cons most certainly outweighed the pros for me here. Not that I haven't been plenty vocal about this thus far, though I do enjoy hearing my sentiments echoed almost verbatim by someone at Epic.

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    • Running speed
    Direction wise it should stay the same in all directions to enable effective backward movement.
    Speed wise it shouldn't surpass the top movement speed of previous iterations, in general
    it needs to be fast without getting out of control.

    • Acceleration

    I personally think thats an important point and that acceleration should be very fast to the point
    that it's almost instant. Being able to change directions while walking is what made "walking" viable
    as opposed to dodges against any kind of weapon type.

    • Air control
    Air control should be fairly limited, i think that is part of the risk/reward of jumping or dodging.
    Being in the air generally makes you vulnerable to but you gain speed/position.
    The one person in the WIP forum had an interesting video where he showed his implementation
    of a "quick-fall" button that enables you to accelerate your falling speed.
    I think this is a great idea to implement because this could allow higher/further jumps without
    the game becoming a flying simulator.

    • Jump height
    • Gravity

    Thats a topic that i think is hard to really talk about without testing it and experiencing it first hand.
    In general i liked the jump height in 2k4 because it enabled much more interesting map design but people have been complaining that it feels very floaty.
    The best compromise (at least worth testing) could be high jump height + high gravity.

    • Dodging
    • Double jump
    • Wall dodge

    I think the 2k4 "moveset" was perfect feature wise. Improvements on height/arc/speed of the jumps are possible though.
    In general i think double jumps should be quite high but slow to establish a risk/reward scenario.
    Dodges have been great previous iterations, fast and low to make them viable during combat.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping
    • Team boosting
    • Lift jumping

    All i can say is "Please don't remove those".

    • Ramp boosting
    Ramp boosting is great. I think it would be gread if it was very fast depending on the slope. Similar to a dodge. I think it should be less focused on "sliding up a ramp"
    and more on "fast sliding along ramps"

    • Jumppads
    Jump pads are neat, one possible improvement would be if jump pads could alter the jump properties completely including gravity.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybz View Post
    Point #1: I think that the game needs a unique style of movement to not alienate either ut99 or ut2k4 player bases and instead try to get everyone on board.

    Point #2: I think the more options and the more elaborate movements are the better. It increases the skill ceiling and adds a whole new dimension to the game and also allows for more diversity in trial maps (bunnytrack in 99)

    Point #3: Running should be more of a mix between quake style ***** hopping and ut style where you can reach insane speed if you're really good but while keeping the in-fighting dodge style of movement. I should be treated as a skill to master as hard as shooting. Shootmania and quake are good examples of this where you can spend hours in maps trying to find little ways to improve your game by running better. UT never really had that level of dept to running and it needs to.

    With that said :

    Running speed : should not be too fast by default but when you use all the modifiers like acceleration and trick jumping and dodge jumping and what not you should be able to move super fast
    Acceleration : not too sure what you mean by that but I think quake style ***** hopping acceleration should be mixed with ut style dodging to add a new dimension to running
    Air control : not sure about that, has to be balanced with everything else I guess
    Jump height : ut3 jump height was weird imo, should be more like ut99 or ut2004
    Gravity : I think you should aim for a more realistic ut99 style gravity without hindering the feeling of speed you can attain if you're a really good runner
    Dodging : should definetely be there can't be UT without dodge and I also think dodge jumping should be in
    Double jump : yes
    Wall dodge : yes
    Impact/Rocket jumping : absolutely, it adds a new dimension to the game
    Team boosting : absolutely in 99 it was really fun to use teamwork to find ways to bypass the ennemy to reach objectives in assault for example
    Ramp boosting : yes
    Lift jumping : yes
    Jumppads : yes

    Believe it or not, but, there is a point when the skill ceiling can become too high -- when this happens, you have no community outside of the 1% of people who are comfortable at this really high ceiling. Too many movement options can reduce the game to "Impossible to hit each other" rounds where two people duel for 10 minutes before one kills the other, or at the most extreme levels, to a point where it's out right impossible for them to kill each other. The more movement options you have, the less value weapons like rockets have, because rockets take time to travel, so a certain amount of prediction is REQUIRED in order to land a rocket shot.

    High skill ceilings are important, 600 floor skyscraper skill ceilings are just as bad as matchbox 1 inch skill ceilings. If you have too many options for movement, it becomes virtually impossible to hit people using those movement options at peak efficiency.

    This is the exact reason why UT2K4 survives with it's most popular game modes being Onslaught and Invasion.

    Onslaught invalidates your movement options by adding vehicles and tremendous map sizes, Invasion puts you against A.I. enemies in a COOP environment with the other players that have the same move set as you, so you are not even competing against other players with these move sets in either of these modes -- all the other modes are barren wastelands devoid of activity because the movement was WAAAAAAAAY too unpredictable in the actual arenas, the life blood of the Unreal franchise.

    In contrast UT '99 survives on Instagib/DM/CTF servers -- because the movesets retained enough predictability for the combat to be fair and satisfying, but still retained enough required skill and precision to foster an earnest competitive game.

    The higher your skill ceiling, the less people who play it will be good at it... The lower your skill ceiling the more people will be good at it.

    100% of the player base being god like is just as bad as 99% of the player base being terrible.

    You need to bring that to the middle, extremes are always bad.
    Last edited by Laokin; 05-12-2014 at 10:04 PM.

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    Steven, glad Epic is tackling this topic first--couldn't be more excited about this project. Arena FPS will always be the greatest genre, and I hope this game revives the community and introduces a new generation of gamers to the experience.

    Although I primarily played Quake (Quake 3 in particular), I also played quite a bit of the various UT games, particularly UT99. I'm far from an expert at the series, but I did somehow manage to place 2nd at a small tournament behind r3v3lation.

    My two cents...

    General Movement:
    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)


    Keeping the same for forward/back/strafing is good. It's hard to comment on the speed itself without actually playing and feeling it. As you mentioned--speed and a combination of other mechanics can really bias the game toward hitscan weapons. It would be a problem if it felt like I was trying to hit a TF2 Scout with a rocket.

    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)

    Instant, or very, very close to instant. Anything else makes a first person game feel sluggish. When I'm viewing my character with a third person camera, the animations help make momentum feel more natural. In first person view, it feels like the game isn't responding to my inputs.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)

    I'm more familiar with the difference in air control between Q1 and Q3 than UT series (sorry!). Somewhere in-between those would be great. In other words, if changing direction on the ground is instant, then in the air it should feel half a step less responsive.

    • Jump height

    Would have to test it out, but somewhere between half the height of the player and 3/4 height would be my guess.

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)

    Definitely should feel some weight. This is more of a personal opinion, but I enjoy fast, fluid but solid-feeling movement.

    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)

    Yes. Also, thought I love bunn*y-hopping in quake, UT should not have it in the core game.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)

    No. I would rather see people gain extra height through mechanics like impact or rocket jumping.

    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)

    Sounds good.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).

    Yes, yes, yes. This mechanic is super fun and has a nice trade-off built into it. You have to sacrifice health for quicker movement or better positioning.

    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

    My gut says this may open up to many opportunities to break level designs in unexpected or hard to test ways, but this could be a nice little mechanic to play with as well.

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)


    Unsure on this one.

    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)

    The mechanic seems a bit superfluous and, for me, oddly unnatural feeling.

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)

    Yes. It's not great when levels overuse them, but I think a jumppad is a useful, flexible tool that gives more options for level designers to play with.
    Last edited by adobbs; 05-12-2014 at 10:17 PM.

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    Only thing I immediately think isn't something that should be in the game is double jump since it just seems rather redundant but then again.. Probably a lot of people who love to press twice on buttons here for some reason or other

    Would be nice if you could trigger settings for these movement mechanics with easily changeable mutators that's a breeze to switch between rather quickly on the server for less cognitive memory bias as we feel it out

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybz View Post
    I would not agree with that. As long as they make it like quake where you have to stop your running to engage in battle it will be fine.
    It's not an opinion that skill ceilings can be too high, just like it's not an opinion that skill ceilings can be too low.

    It's also not an opinion that the more complex and difficult game you have, the smaller number of people are going to be great at it.

    It's also not an opinion that UT '99 survives with Instagib/CTF/DM while UT2K4 survives in Onslaught and Invasion.

    These are all FACTUAL statements, not opinions, or intuition, or "what I feel." They are independently verifiable to every single person on this forum if they wished to test any of those statements.

    You know why players have to "Stop" in quake to fight? Because of conservation of momentum [no air control or double jump direction changes] and because Quake's free base movement options are extremely limited.

    Forward/Reverse
    Strafe
    Jump
    Crouch

    They don't have double jumps, dodges, dodge jumps, wall dodges, jump boot dodge jumps. They don't have the ability to change direction completely in the air, like in UT2K series... in Quake, if you're in the air, you're a sitting duck because they have a system built off momentum, the more you move this way, the faster you go -- slowly accelerating each jump, in order to turn, you have to stop. Quake is a masterpiece in the same vein that UT '99 is, and that's because they DON'T have arbitrary movement options, they have a very BASIC movement skill set that is PREDICTABLE. This is why the games both feature HEAVILY -- guns that are "PREDICTION" based, like the rocket launcher.

    Quake has more trick jumps, but they all cost life at significant values putting hard limits on what you can and can't do and when it's wise and when it's unwise to do those things.

    Adding MORE movement options wrecks this entirely -- essentially it would remove their need to "stop" to fight, and makes the movement UNPREDICTABLE, and so the rise of hitscan dominance, you might as well just delete every prediction based weapon in the game.

    LG/Sniper/Shock/Minigun ONLY.

    Does that sound like a fun game to you? Because if it does, UT isn't that game.
    Last edited by Laokin; 05-12-2014 at 10:43 PM.

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    what about 2x wall dogdge or more? like climbing between two close walls? be able to dodge on the enemy or teammate would be cool too "enemy dodge" hehe
    Last edited by myxomatosis; 05-12-2014 at 11:15 PM.

  22. #22
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    Playing the previous unreal titles, it may be prudent to keep the run speed at maximum as fast as the fastest game? I played the 2K series and I enjoyed the movements, but I certainly see how the design decisions there made that game biased to hitscan weapons. I also enjoyed UT3's movement speed (as some have mentioned above).

    In UT3, the gravity, IMO, seemed very heavy, but I understand this was closer to the original. I adapted quickly so again, this may just come down to finding some sweet spot between gravity, air control and the jump height. I have read some other players sentiments on removing the double jump in favor of a possibly higher jump height which may be a good idea as well. I see a post above suggesting the jump height be the same as the character height which is another possible good idea. The thing is for the most part, the players I played with and against used the dodge a lot instead of jumping and only jumped over obstacles or barriers, etc.

    Impulse jumping seems to me like it should still be possible so I think that will be a plus from everyone. I'm on the fence on team boosting - especially with no damage. Well, in all the previous UTs I mostly played CTF and TDM and while I didn't observe this happen a lot, I would imagine this may break those game types? Not quite sure.
    Last edited by jayoplus; 05-12-2014 at 11:22 PM.

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    Hello Community,

    I wanted to introduce myself first and foremost and say that I am excited about what EPIC is doing with the new Unreal Tournament. As most of you guys know this is a big deal to see how a game of this caliber is developed from the beginning.

    Having said that, the direction that I believe Unreal should go in is to be bold in its design. Unreal Tournament is the biggest name in arena shooters and with it being gone for so long its return must be triumphant. Its design must be bold and forward thinking. Influencing a generation of games for the moment it is released not just in its genre but in other genres as well.

    Give this opportunity I am happy to present some game design ideas for the Movement Mechanics. Steven Polge definitely hit the nail on the head when he said that this is the first area that needs to be worked on. How a player interfaces with an experience the game is key to any game's success.

    First Player's Movement Mechanics:
    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    Running Forward, and Strafing should be the same speed relative to each other. The overall speed I would say should increase around 30% from UT2K4. The rationale is that UT is a fast paced game, in this era one of the crowns it should have is "fast gameplay". Simply moving backward however should be reduced by 25% to 10%. The rationale for this is strategy and to create more intense battles by keeping players in "each others faces." To make up for the lack of the retreat ability, players should be allowed to dodge in 6 directions and not just 4. More on this in the Dodging section.

    The running speed should be the first movement system designed and run through the ringer. This will require iteration after iteration to get the feel right.

    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    There should be some slight acceleration, 0 to full speed in less than 200ms. ONLY from dead starts however. I think this will create a greater sense of speed and movement for the player. However this is a cinematic change. For a competition level FPS, near instant acceleration would work for NOT having to factor that into your attack strategy and would also have the added benefit of making the gameplay more accessible to new players.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    This should be more of a physics based ability as you want it to "feel right" What makes competition level gameplay mechanics is predictability. If a player can predict how he or she is going to fall and that fall closely matches the other movement mechanics then this is good design. Air Control maybe on of the movement controls we work on last as getting everything else is place is what will play a large part in getting this feel right.

    In this arena I would suggest allowing the Jet-pack to give a player more control over what they can do in air, Dodging, Extended Jumps, etc.

    • Jump Height
    Jump height should be one of the first mechanics worked on and made to feel right. If jumping is a combat mechanic the, The height of the jump should allow a player to leap over rockets fired by other players at the same elevation. If jumping is a tactical mechanic or movement mechanic then it should be only as high as allowing the player to traverse the environment better. In a game like unreal i would stick with the jump as a combat mechanic.

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    This is the fun area and should be designed as such. With lots of iterations. Gravity should be one of the core combat mechanics. Manipulating and Mastering gravity should be part of the way players gain more skill. The gravity should be tight and not floaty but it doesn't and should not be realistic. There should also be maps, weapons, pick-ups that can manipulate the gravity in a certain area, raise or lower the gravity, create vacuums, etc.

    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    Dodging is one of my favorite things to do in games. This Muhammad Ali and not Mike Tyson when it comes to dodging. dodging should be a skill that is honed and when mastered should grant the player numerous offensive, defensive and traversal advantages. A dodge should be very quick and tight while allowing the player to get right back in the action after executing it. Kind of like a counter-punch. I think by adding a delay at the start but allowing the player to attack a few frames before the end of the animation that would create a dodge that requires skill to execute and is also fun to "slide around" projectiles.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    The double jump should be the third component designed along with the Jump height. I personally believe that a Double Jump is a mandatory mechanic in this era of FPS and gaming. The Double jump should produce the same height as the single jump and the player should be allowed to trigger it at anytime during a jump and not simply at the apex. The rationale for this is to allow unpredictability during aerial combat. However, the Double Jump has its limits in that you don't have as much control over the second jump as you do over the first. Basically when you double jump and pick a direction, you are pretty much limited to landing at the end of that arch. This benefits both the jumper and the attacker as the attacker could fire a rocket at the jumpers first landing arch location forcing death or a double jump and then unleash another as now he knows exactly where the player will land.

    The Double jump should serves a few purposes not just mobility but of strategy and allowing the player to move around the map more quickly and avoid projectiles as well as accomplish task during various game modes. In short it give the players more options. The double jump is also essential in tying into the newer features that I think should be added like Wall Running.

    • Wall Dodge/Air Dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    The Wall Dodge should feel about weighty and skillful and have about the same speed as a ground dodge albeit covering a slightly greater distance as the player will use the wall to generate force. The wall dodge is another high skill maneuver that is primary used to dodge in coming projectiles and keep opponents off balance. Also to add a bit of flavor to the wall dodge it might be fun to see how we can use direction based dodging to allow the player to dodge straight off the wall or up or down at a 45 degree angle. This would create even more unpredictability for the shooter but more options for the player to transverse the environment.

    Air Dodge is an extension of wall dodge meaning that you don't need a wall to bounce off of however you would need a jet-pack. You have the same options however with noticeable reduced distance. The Air dodge is more of a last ditch maneuver to that when you see that rocket out the corner of your eye you can react. This one will take some iterating to get the feel and the distance right.

    • Impact/Rocket Jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    &
    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)


    An excellent feature that should remain in the game. It promotes teamwork and provide a way to boot a character to heights unobtainable by simple jumping or double jumping. There should be a limit to this however as if a player uses impact jumping they cannot double jump. The rationale is to cause the player to think creatively about using double jump or impact jump and it will foster creativity.

    • Wall Running (ability to run on walls for a limited time)
    In a game focused on twitch combat and speed, wall running is essential to the experience. Wall Running allows the players to get places fast and smoothly and it will open up a whole host of offensive defensive and traversal options. Players should be allowed to Dodge off the wall with increased range due to the increased speed that is generated from a wall run. The cool thing about a wall run and how it ties into the physics of the game is that after a player executes a wall that speed boost they gain from it remains as long as they keep sprinting. This in turn will allow them to jump further on a single or double jump. This momentum also persists through the jumps allowing the player to get around a map fast. This is an excellent feature and will be highly utilized in game-modes like Capture The Flag(CTF).

    • Sliding (an extension of dodging in the forward direction while on ground)
    Sliding would be a great feature to add as it would allow the player to dodge an incoming attack at relatively the same speed in which they were running and like the dodge proposed earlier, allow the player to attack just a few frames before the end of the animation. Tight and controlled and to be using like a boxer's counter punch. Also CTF levels would definitely benefit from this mechanic as it will allow the player to keep their momentum while moving through a dangerous battlefield.

    Remember that all of these mechanics are paper design now and will need iteration to get right and maybe even some features will be scrapped due to just not being fun or unbalanced. If anyone in the community has any questions or would like me to further explain my rationale for my design decisions just hit me and we can discuss.

    Like I said I am very excited for this opportunity and I will be contributing much more in the future.

    firstplayer

  24. #24
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    I honestly thought UT3 hit a pretty good point in terms of striking the balance between UT2004 movement and UT movement. I'm probably an outlier in that I enjoyed all 3 UT games quite a bit, although for different reasons.

    UT being the original was my first love and I think, quite honestly, that I'd be happy with just UT99 HD. Back in UT days I loved almost everything: Deathmatch, TDM, CTF, even occasionally Domination. Assault was kind of fun too, but as soon as it became about learning very specific jump tricks I lost interest.

    That being said, I probably played more UT2004 total, and have worked with and modded for the UT2004/UE2.5 platform much more than the original game. UT2004's gameplay was well suited to Onslaught, where giving players dodge jump made footsoldier vs. vehicle battles pretty interesting. Onslaught did a really good job of making a skilled footsoldier relevant against vehicles, something I haven't seen most games do. The core gameplay of UT2004 was not rewarding to me in DM / CTF though. UT2004's Assault was an improvement over UT99's, and the TAM/Freon gametype worked with UT2004's gameplay much better than DM/CTF did.

    UT3, to me, was a good in-between step gameplay wise that was dragged down by a number of surrounding factors. UT3 was actually fun in DM / CTF, so it was pretty successful there for me. The areas where it fell down in these gametypes were almost all aesthetic -- By which I mean that the gameplay didn't feel crisp, the visuals were muddied by excessive level detail / unclear character silhouettes, and innumerable other UI annoyances. What UT3 did most poorly, in my opinion, was Warfare, which is a shame since it was touted constantly as the big 'new' thing of UT3. Throughout the course of UT2004's life I modified a number of ONS maps to improve playability from years of experience playing the gametype and learning what was fun and what wasn't. Warfare seemed to disregard all of the lessons learned from UT2k4 (or maybe no one at Epic liked ONS enough to care) and ended up making a gametype that was superficially similar to Onslaught, but lost the subtle balance between footsoldiers and vehicles, and the nuances of vehicle use that made ONS interesting for years. I'm under no illusion that ONS was perfect, and I introduced a lot of mods for ONS in UT2004 to improve the gameplay, but Warfare was satisfying neither to existing UT2004/ONS players nor to people new to the UT series.

    When it comes to core movement I would be content with any, but I do feel like UT99/UT3 have better movement for DM/CTF than UT2004. The dodge jump just became to necessary as a movement mechanic in UT2004, with side effects rippling through the rest of the game. One thing that did disappoint me in UT3 was that ramp-dodging was effectively removed. There weren't many areas with angled walls in the UT3 stock levels, but I remember trying it in a few places and sliding down ineffectually. Ramp sliding and rampdodging isn't strictly core to UT, but it's one of those movements that is fun and has been in for long enough that it's expected. Same thing with lift jumps, piston/shield jumps, etc.
    One thing that UT2004 had over UT3 in the movement arena was that UT2004's wall-dodge movement reset the player's Z velocity. UT3's walldodges were not as satisfying because the Z component of velocity was maintained. While resetting the Z has consequences for designing vertical spaces and the risk/reward of elevation, I think the upside outweighs the downside. Resetting Z keeps the wall dodge a consistent mechanic, whereas if Z velocity is maintained, the dodge often feels like it does nothing. As a general game design principle if I execute a button press expecting a certain behavior I think it's better if that behavior is consistent (and fun/noticeable) rather than strictly realistic.
    Last edited by Wail; 05-13-2014 at 09:37 AM.

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    My short two cents

    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    - I would like to see characters running slightly slower backward than forward, OR, make aiming harder while moving backwards. This promotes an agressive forward-moving playstyle.

    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    - I would like to see this based on character size and mass as well as current speed and angle of direction change. Smaller, lighter characters turn faster and making a right turn is faster than a u-turn.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    - you should not be able to move - aside from turning - while in midair. If you can, it should be very little.

    • Jump height
    - Having a slightly higher jump height than realistically possible would give the player a sense of strength, but too much seems comical

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    - based on the map. I loved the outer space levels and gravity should be moon-like in space maps so the player has a reference and feeling of "this is what it would really be like". Maps on a planet with gravity should allow for 1-2s of air-time while jumping to keep it somewhat realistic. It would be neat to play on a space map and be able to jump 3 meters, playing another map on a jupiter-like planet and barely being able to jump, then playing on earth with normal jump height. Controlled by gravity not player jump height capability.


    Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    - I would like to see double jump REMOVED with the exception of gun or device-assisted double jumps.(ie rocket jumping). You should be able to double jump, but only with enough skill and knowledge of the game to do so.

    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    - keep, fun tactic

    Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    - KEEP, see above note in double jumping.

    Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)
    - KEEP, promotes teamwork and skill while making things entertaining and fun. Who doesn't like to shoot their friends with rockets with no consequences?

    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    - If kept, limit it. You should not be able to reach areas of maps you weren't intended to on foot, that is what jump pads are for. That said, it can add some very fun gameplay if kept in mind during level design.

    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    - keep

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)
    - Take it or leave it with me. If using them, use them sparely and only for strategically meaningful reasons. (In order to provide a way of getting somewhere on foot quickly when no vehicles available, or to high-up otherwise unreachable areas of maps etc.)

  26. #26
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    so much this.
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerclaw View Post
    Steven

    There's another alpha testing solution which can be easily implimented for movement testing, without the use of weapons

    Bunnytrack, in a cut down form this UT99 mod is only about movement

    There are thousands of simple and complicated BT maps which can be taken from for testing, the inclusion of a single trace hit weapon such as primary shock also allows people to test hitting targets whilst moving, which is basically just testing mouse and keyboard co-ordination

    With this we can effectively test;

    All forms of dodging and jumping
    Ramp dodging
    Air control(a massively important factor in getting the feel of the movement right)
    Bounce pads
    Lift jumping

    Whilst bunnytrack uses flags there's no need for this, all we need are the obstacles

    Here's an example of some BT maps



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbr1KE-uLn8

    This way movement can be tested for longer and perfected easily, as there are many skilled UT players who focus on their movement

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    IMO:

    Running speed: Some happy medium between the previous games, but will depend on other factors.
    Acceleration: Instant, like I believe it has always been.
    Air control: Some happy medium between the previous games.
    Jump height: Single jump a little higher than it was. No double jump.
    Gravity: Some happy medium between the previous games.
    Dodging: No dodge jump. UT3 had a good dodge distance, but it should be faster and the arc should be lower.
    Double jump: No double jump, no dodge-jump.
    Wall dodge: Yes, in some form. I don't really have an opinion on the details, but it's a cool mechanic.
    Impact/Rocket jumping: Definitely keep this in.
    Team boosting: Yes. It shouldn't have a huge impact on TDM, but it adds an element to gametypes like Assault.
    Ramp boosting: UT2004 system seems good.
    Lift jumping: I would definitely miss this if it was removed.
    Jumppads: Up to the LD.

  28. #28
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    Preferred Game Play / Movement: UT99 style

    Running speed: 115% default UT99 speed. Just make the default a little faster and give server admins the option of increasing or decreasing the speed.

    Acceleration: It never seemed to be an issue in UT99, so keep the UT99 settings.

    Air control: Enough so that if you are jumping over a low gravity area (Lucius's Pit) or using a jump pad that you can curve your trajectory to land several meters to the left or right of a straight line, but not much more than that. This could probably be expressed in terms of "how far should a player be able to move in a direction perpendicular to the axis of the direction of the jump".

    Jump height: Being able to lift your player cylinder off the ground by 60% of the player cylinder's height seems like a good ratio.

    Gravity: I thought that UT99 felt pretty good and that UT3 just a little heavy.

    Dodging: The simple 4 cardinal movement dodges of UT99 worked out well, but the UT 2004 dodge jump seemed overpowered, so I'd axe the dodge jump.

    Double Jump: The only value a double jump has is to activate a pair of jump boots on the second tap. What was frustrating in UT99 was that if you had the jump boots and wanted to make a small jump, you were forced to activate the jump boots, so I wouldn't mind seeing a double jump mechanic but only for the jump boots. Without the jump boots it didn't seem to add anything of value to the game..

    Wall Dodge: Get rid of it.

    Impact/Rocket jumping: This mechanic works out well because it has a significant negative cost and can be disastrous if not executed properly.

    Team Boosting: Off by default, but available as a Mutator.

    Ramp Boosting: This worked out pretty well in the UT99 map CTF-Bleak, so I don't see the harm in including it in the game.

    Lift Jumping: It doesn't have much of an effect on combat, so it should remain in the game.

    Jump Pads: These are useful additions in certain maps. One of the most popular UT99 maps, CTF-w00tabulous, used these to great effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Laokin View Post
    It's not an opinion that skill ceilings can be too high, just like it's not an opinion that skill ceilings can be too low. It's also not an opinion that the more complex and difficult game you have, the smaller number of people are going to be great at it. It's also not an opinion that UT '99 survives with Instagib/CTF/DM while UT2K4 survives in Onslaught and Invasion.
    Steve, I hope that you guys will invest deep thought in contemplating the following argument:

    "If it's not broken, why 'fix' it?"

    The most objective, factual argument I can make in favor of UT99 movement style is, very simply, that UT99 was a huge success and UT 2003/4 did not fare as well. UT 2004 seemed to succeed primarily in the area of the vehicular game Onslaught and the non-competitive game Invasion. It didn't do so well for traditional on-foot games, including CTF which was the flagship game of UT99. If you take a "the player counts don't lie" approach and compare the online player counts for UT99 and UT 2004 at any given amount of time after the release of each game, (say UT99's player counts in 2002 v. UT 2004's player counts in 2007) you'll find that UT99 trounced UT 2004. UT99 also had far, far more clan match activity. (This analysis does not work with UT3 because it had a great many non-game play/movement problems that affected player counts.)

    Furthermore, we should consider which player base is most important to please with the default game type: Experienced UT players who are already sold on the UT franchise or brand new people who had never heard of or ever played a UT game prior to UT4? Which movement style will make the game most accessible to the new players? (Those who prefer UT 2004 movement can always invest the small amount of effort needed to use a mod.) UT99 style is the tried and proven winner; it seems like UT99 style offers less risk of failure.

    Whether your team settles on UT99 or UT 2004 movement style, a great many devoted and passionate fans of either UT99/3 or UT 2004 are going to be severely disappointed. It's an intractable problem. Perhaps you could reach a compromise by offering to include the other style as a mutator option for server admins. If that is done, there should be a good way to differentiate/filter servers in the browser based on movement style.
    Last edited by WHIPperSNAPper; 05-13-2014 at 05:47 AM.
    UT4 CTF Maps: CTF-Whiplash | CTF-Sidewinder | CTF-Highpoint | CTF-Hardcore | CTF-Tubes-Of-Spam

    UT99 CTF Maps: CTF-DagnysBigAssMap-V2 | CTF-Dagnys-P****WhIpPeD | CTF-Dagnys-Dark-Delight-LE102 | CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam

  29. #29
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    Impact hammer jumping and jump boots must remain in the game, a crucial component for CTF, vCTF and assault

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    My thoughts:

    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)
    It should be like the 2K series, I thought it was the perfect speed.
    Maybe, running backward should be 20%-30% slower, promoting aggressive play, but really it should be tested out to see if it's good.

    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)
    Instant, or almost. Having too much accelleration would result in a laggy feeling.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)
    None. I think in a shooter game if you make a bad jump you should take the consequences it brings, without the ability to adjust your trajectory in mid-air.
    Also, it could be a valid compromise in order to keep the double jump.

    • Jump height
    UT2K edition. I feel it was the best in any UT game I played.

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)
    In UT3 the feeling was like being crushed to the ground, so I would make gravity certainly less heavy than that. At the same time I can see the point of the ones that describe UT2K "floaty" (although I was just fine playing there), so it could be tested out a gravity value between UT2004 and UT3.

    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    Always been a staple in the UT games, keep it.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    Keep double jump. For me is one of the things that make UT unique. I would love something similar to UT2003/2004, but I'm open to some tweaks on it.

    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)
    I'm fine with it, keep.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

    Keep 'em. All the mechanincs that add variety are welcomed.

    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    Keep.

    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    Absolutely keep. They are no way gamebreaking and surely are a lot of fun.

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)
    Absolutely keep. I found them very useful to reach some areas of a map, or quickly return to the battlefield after a death.
    Last edited by L4NZ10; 05-13-2014 at 07:11 AM.

  31. #31
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    I had posted the following in the General Discussion thread before this subforum was created, and because it hasn't been moved yet, I'd like to quote it here

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimeIcarian View Post
    1. Mixed gameplay gravitating to UT99, but including UT2004 mutators:

    The movement set could be a mix of 99's and 2004's, a lot like UT3 did but with some differences:
    -Single jumps by default, and as high as UT99's jumps
    -Double/Multi jumps could be activated by a mutator (weirdly a name I haven't read much in this forum, despite UT's vital need for them)
    -Wall Dodges by default
    -Dodge Jumping configurable in the Multi-Jump mutator, and unless dodge cooldown is disabled, the dodge jump CD lasts twice as long as the normal one
    -Dodging in ramps boosted without the need for dodge jumping
    -Weapon Balance from UT3 (the best imho)
    -Dodge cooldown from UT99 (Has a mutator that disables it for authentic 2004 gameplay)

    To defend my suggestion, I'd like to say:
    -UT2004's Double jumps and dodge jumps as they were are usually abused (a metagame-friendly abuse) to create viciously fast matches, it's fun, but it has a terrible backlash: the fast gameplay causes players to prefer distances rather than close combat, and added with the giant-scaled maps, it overpowers hitscan weapons (Shock Rifle, Lightning Gun, Sniper Rifle) and leading most players to abandon the rest of the arsenal (except for the Shield Gun). I believe this new UT should have a near-perfect weapon balance so it can expand the metagame possibilities, thus attracting FPS fans looking for variety in a time where everyone is saturated with CoD and its clones

    -Keeping a more grounded gameply will attract new players, as UT as it was in the 90s/2000s cannot appeal to contemporary FPS players anymore, that seek realism and action at the same time.

    2. All-new gameplay set, based on a Special Movements Key (Shift)

    The SMK is a personal suggestion of mine, as I always left hour-long matches because my fingers were hurting bad. Even as I don't expect it'll be applied to UT14 neither that people will approve it, I'd still like to share it too:

    -SMK + W = Sprint: as long as you sprint you get momentum and run faster (of course, it has a max speed, but it's a lot faster than dodging), but strafing would be drastically hindered while sprinting, steering would make you lose momentum, and you wouldn't be able to shoot. Jumping during a sprint makes you jump larger distances (mostly like a costy dodge-jump that can't be abused) but you still lose some momentum after that. For all that matter, stamina is infinite.
    -SMK + A/D = Dodge: I removed forward-dodge because it's the most difficult to make, and it's easily replaced by looking to the side and side-dodging forward. Works like any other dodge and its applications, like ramp-dodging.
    -SMK + S = Backflip: I don't know whether the player sees the backflip (it'd be really vertiginous) in first-person or simply a back-dodge.
    -Holding SMK in mid-air close to a ledge: Ledge grab and climb. Analogue to the double jump, as the player jumps twice to reach a higher ground. It would cost time and leave you vulnerable, but you can press Crouch to cancel it at any time and drop, and already having momentum before the jump makes it faster.

    Mixed Movements:
    Wall Dodge (No need to explain)
    Wall Sprint (Can be sidewards or upwards, consumes momentum instead of building it up)
    Slide: Sprint + Crouch (The more momentum you have, the longer you slide)
    The Matrix Flip: Upwards Wall Sprint + Back flip

    To defend my suggestion, I'd like to say:
    -It would remove the double-tapping needed for dodging, thus giving UT a more malleable movement (although many still defend the double-tapping and I don't blame them)
    -Makes the gameplay a lot more varied and appeasant to contemporary FPS players, while doing its best to keep the realism that attracts modern gamers so much
    -The momentum-based parkour is a whole new concept for UT, and theoretically, it doesn't need giant maps for sprinting and maneuvering, so it doesn't break the weapon balance.
    Regarding the other movements:
    -Hammer Jump: A MUST, but I'm not sure about Rocket Jump
    -Air Control: I don't know, it could be customizable as in Ut99
    -Team Boosting: Never used it before, but it must be cool for team games
    -Lift Jumping: Yes, DO IT!
    -Jumppads: Yes, it takes the player places where the lift jump doesn't.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
    Steve, I hope that you guys will invest deep thought in contemplating the following argument:
    "If it's not broken, why 'fix' it?"
    Pretty much this.
    And +1 for the b u n n y track idea

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    I'm not hugely fussed about the base movement. I know that the UT community wouldnt want to change much about it and while I dont like UT movement, the game has such excellent weapons that its hard to care too much.

    What I would like to see however, to make up for the movement somewhat, is weapon related movement. Different types of weapon jumps and boosts. Rocket jumps, shield jumps, impact hammer jumps, whatever, just give the game more of a vertical axis.

    It already has more of a vertical axis than most games, but for an arena shooter the game is very horizontal. Would love to see more rocket jumps and stuff.

  34. #34
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    • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)

    -A decent combination of ALL UT. It cant be too fast, dodges have to be your primary form of movements.


    • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)

    -I believe its been instant or close to it all of UT, should remain that way.

    • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)

    - The default for UT99 felt well, not as heavy as UT3 and not a floating balloon like UT2k, it was set at 30%.

    • Jump height

    -Simular to Air control, i believe the original had an happy medium between, float like a balloon high and stick to the ground of UT3. UT99 felt like you had some momentum in the air, but not stuck to the ground or flying sky high.

    • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)

    -Same as the 2 above the classic just seems to have had a middle ground of this, in UT3 you feel as if the gravity is about to squish you every time you jump or dodge, in UT2K you feel as if you are playing on the moon at all time. A more sport like gravity was better, UT99 kinda had a simular gravity to quake 3 back in the days for how quickly you went back to the floor. It felt right.


    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)

    -UT2k dodge floats too long and slow, UT3 dodge are effected too heavily by the point above (gravity) UT99 dodge was the smoothest of the 3, but im not against doing it slightly different. It needs to not feel like you are stuck on the ground (UT3). But at the same time it cant feel like you are filled with helium, a middle ground can be found.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)

    -Pointless mechanic, make the jump higher or make the maps that does not required this. Unreachable area is for weapon boosting, like piston.

    • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)

    -Good mechanic, it can be improved upon, most likely a less float dodge, but not so heavy as UT3, will make it actually better.

    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).

    -Staple to reach hidden power ups, offense in capture the flag and assault. If anything it should be improved upon, perhaps shock bubble boosting self damage reduction/allow pulse rifle primary to act as the quake 3 plasma gun, inflict minor damage, but allow to boost yourself across walls using the bounce of the primary explosion. It opens creativity.



    • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

    -Again staple for gametypes like CTF and Assault, Team damage is always on in TDM, so this is really only for these other 2. I believe this should also be improved upon and carefully crafted this time around. UT99 had alot of teamwork and strategy in this area and it was quickly slashed for UT2003 removing all of it. Perhaps this time it should be embraced and balanced withing the game to increase the general public teamwork. Team piston setting is a unique thing to UT99, something that should definitively be considered to come back. For anyone that does not know, with the secondary piston you could hit in a general angle on a map, load the primiary and have a team member dodge or jump, depending on what you wanted to achieve, and the player would be launched in the angle you selected with the alt fire. Setting up your launch, i believe if such a team and knowledge oriented mechanic should be balanced within the game for everyones benefit. It adds to the metagame and to the learning curve.


    Level Designer constrained movement features:

    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)

    -UT2003 ones sometimes were too weird, UT2004 and UT99 angles were good enough for this. It cant be near vertical, it has to be a legitimate slop to not feel weird.

    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)

    -Always been in UT, no reason to ever remove.

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)

    -Its map situational, i feel sometime its very overused to some mappers.

    We can also certainly discuss and consider new movement elements.

    ** For example, the movement mechanics in UT2003 and UT2004 biased the game toward hitscan weapons, and also caused scale issue with interior levels which had to be built to support large scale jumps. This isn’t meant to bash those movement mechanics, which were also a lot of fun, but to point out the consequences of the design.

    -I agree with you on this, the problem with the floaty gameplay is that it helps hit scan dominates the scene, even if UT2k hit scan weapons like the LG, were highly nerfed compared to the classic sniper rifle, which is an overpowered monster. The longer you are floating with the reduced air control, the easier the target. An happy medium should be reached between ut2k and ut3. UT99 was somewhere in between, but it does not need to be exact emulation. With the low latency and the power of the internet now, hit scan really does not need help, if anything projetiles needs to be the one considered for help the most. Hit scan should be limited in power to sniper rifle, shock beam, minigun, enforcer. Their power needs to be balanced so that they dont outright destroy everything, meaning they shouldnt have too much effect on players momentum. No lockdown, like UT99 used eventually, minimal bouncing on shock beams. Shock beam should never again be the primary hit scan gun (ut2k), this is sniper rifle territory. And this territory still shouldnt mean, beat everything at any ranges.
    Last edited by minteK; 05-13-2014 at 08:33 AM.

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    Personally I think THIS serves as a good middle ground although dodgejump could definitely stand not be shorter. Air dodge might even work then, but I'm not completely sold on that yet.

    Also, UT1 has a very good foundation that you tried to replicate in UT3 but didn't entirely succeed in. UT3 feels to heavy and you have too much aircontrol. UT1/Ut2k4 aircontrol is pretty much perfect for a UT game imo, it allows for direction control but not let you escape a well placed rocket in your trajectory.

    Also, running speed should be the same in all directions - you should not be punished speedwise by running backwards since that in itself takes mapknowledge to pull off and would make it too easy to hunt down an escaping target.
    Dodging up ramps and edges (think Antalus) in UT2k4 feels right at home and should be kept along with the doublejump, but maybe let the extra jump give you bit more airtime instead of jumping higher. That way it will remain a way of "dodging" splash damage, but not almost entirely negate it as you can in 2k4.
    Last edited by dac; 05-13-2014 at 08:50 AM.

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    My name is sLY and I currently compete in Pro Unreal MLUT tournaments. I also competed in OGL, Teamplay.net, TWL, and Proving Ground tournaments in the past. I played competitively in UT99, UT2k3, UT2k4, and the short lived UT3 (just 1v1 in that game). Here's my opinion from my experience in the competitive scene.

    • Running speed -- I'm indifferent. Whatever works best with the weapons.
    • Acceleration -- Again, indifferent. Whatever "feels" best.
    • Air control -- As long as the packet loss bug doesn't lock me into place like I'm playing Quake, I'm happy with either!
    • Jump height -- Probably something like UT99. Floaty = bad
    • Gravity -- See above.
    • Dodging -- I liked UT3's dodging. The dodge jump left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and was bad for map design.
    • Double jump -- I would prefer no double jump, but it's not the end of the world.
    • Wall dodge -- No harm in the wall dodge!
    • Impact/Rocket jumping -- Absolutely. This is a necessity.
    • Team boosting -- Absolutely, BUT allow server admins the option to ENABLE/DISABLE. In competitive CTF different leagues have different rules. The North American CTF community allowed this. Believe it or not, team launching is a lot harder than you would imagine in a competitive environment (especially when you have to load rockets).
    • Ramp boosting -- Yes, a great feature.
    • Lift jumping -- Yep!
    • Jumppads -- Yep!

    One thing missing from this is piston boot jumps (using jump boots and pistoning off a wall) and piston boot dodges (pistoning on ground while dodging for accelerated distance and speed). This was in UT99, 2k3, 2k4, and UT3. I just want to make sure the basic physics of allowing yourself to piston while also boot jumping remain in the game.

    Also, the translocator mechanics. I hope for the ability to telepunt, shock combo punt, etc... (and no limit this time). Also with the ability to effectively use as a weapon like in 99.

    I mention these two things because they somewhat have to do with movement/positioning yourself around a map.
    Last edited by sLY1838; 05-13-2014 at 09:44 AM.

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    Theres definitely going to be alot of back and forth here, some give and take and some arguing I have played 2k4 and UT3 the most so those are what I have to base this off of.

    • Running speed -- I'm indifferent. Just not COD style sprint
    • Acceleration -- ^
    • Air control -- I felt like 2k4 had good air control.
    • Jump height -- Probably something between 99 and 2k4.
    • Gravity -- See above.
    • Dodging -- I prefer dodge jump for mechanics.
    • Double jump -- Yes please.
    • Wall dodge -- Yes please
    • Impact/Rocket jumping -- Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
    • Team boosting -- Yes or no, doesn't matter
    • Ramp boosting -- Yes.
    • Lift jumping -- Yep.
    • Jumppads -- Yep.

    I feel like I'd rather have 'too floaty' than 'too heavy'. It's UT not COD, so a little more floaty than too weighed down would be better in MY opinion. I'd prefer LESS floaty than 2k4 but not as heavy feeling as UT3 - if that makes sense?

  38. #38
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    So, how about making an official thread for each of these points, with the first post being a list of pros and cons for each side, plus the more interesting new ideas listed? Because just opinions are not worth a whole lot, when there is nothing to form an opinion from...

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    General Movement:

    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
    - The UT3 dodge height could be reduced a little bit, if we are going to have dodge jump(an usual one, not the one I propose below). If not, keep it like UT3 is good enough.

    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
    - Double jump during dodge, I think, could be replaced with a jump which mostly contribute horizontal speed(to the direction you are pressing), and reduce the time tolerance a little bit to make sure the max distance of a dodge jump is less than UT2K4 version, but with a slightly higher speed

    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
    - I hope we can make hammer jump or RJ more user friendly, compared to Quake RJ, you need obviously more time to prepare a hammer jump, especially a high one, which is kinda interrupt the flow, and the self damage could be reduced a bit for a lower hammer jump (not for a high one), which means the self damage increase in a non-linear way, so lower hammer jump would be a popular one which can give you a comfortable way to reach those place slightly higher than a double jump, but for a much higher place, you either use jumpboots or a fully charged hammer jump which remains expensive so it won't be overused.
    For RJ, I am not sure if we need it. If we really need a second weapon to do interesting jump, or push enemy away, I suggest we use Bio Gun, because the goo can stick to anywhere, and create additional jump opportunities like a wall goo jump, or a jumppad goo jump, etc. And it is very UT-ish!


    Level Designer constrained movement features:
    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
    -Yes! I am a big fan of ramp boosting or ramp dodge.
    -The only concern I have, is we need to have AI support. I mean bot should also use and prefer to use this trick, which will make the solo match very fun.


    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
    -Yes, if possible, make horizontal moving platform that can give you extra horizontal speed if you jump or dodge, this way we can create some very original movement elements in the map.

    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)
    -I really like UT3 jumppad, with customizable air control, it is perfect. But one thing annoys me is that we can not easily replace the visual and the ambient hum sound.
    -Technically I wish we can choose between cylinder collision and box collision for the jumppad. I remember in Quake they use box collision (I could be wrong, after all it's been so many years), and sometimes it fits the level design purpose much better than a cylinder
    -Oh, one thing I don't like about UT3 jumppad is, very difficult to use it to make a really long jump, the curve will miss the target if the jump time is too short, basically it won't just boost the speed accordingly to a point that make sure you can land at the target location. So for a really long jump, I have to make a very curvy line and it could do landing damage to the player which is not welcome.

  40. #40
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    There were thousands of die-hard UT99 fans.
    There were hundreds of die-hard UT2K4 fans.
    There was one die-hard UT3 fan.

    The movement, mechanics, and scale of the original Unreal Tournament was superb. Why elaborate on something that worked so well? It was simplistic in nature. It was easy for beginners to learn, yet difficult to master via competitive play - much like the Quake series.

    This is simply my own opinion.

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