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    #16
    over post processing is my main complaint about UT3 graphics... Depth of Field blur and bloom were overused...

    Please allow the option for custom post processing effects in UT4..
    DANG YOU UT2K4 KIDS! GET OFF MY LAWN!

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      #17
      accidental double post :s
      3D Artist looking for work.

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        #18
        Originally posted by smantz0rZ View Post
        UT99 is the perfect combination of size balance and visual clarity.
        I agree, especially about the customization being washed out by bright skins.
        From mid range and further it became less about hitting a character and more about hitting that bright glowing blob.

        "Serious" tournament players should have the options to turn on skins, replace models etc.
        3D Artist looking for work.

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          #19
          Thanks Chris, those comparison shots validate what I felt about lighting in particular. Balancing clarity with lights, materials/textures and overall tonality will be fun


          I haven't picked up UE4 still, but do the tools have a way to artificially darken an area? This is kind of a half thought with nothing specific in mind, just something that might be useful, similar to what one might do in photo retouching.

          edit: forgot to ask: What time do y'all do the stream?
          Last edited by throttlekitty; 06-04-2014, 01:54 PM.

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            #20
            Originally posted by CognizanCe View Post
            I agree, especially about the customization being washed out by bright skins.
            From mid range and further it became less about hitting a character and more about hitting that bright glowing blob.

            "Serious" tournament players should have the options to turn on skins, replace models etc.
            I appreciate your agreement of course, but I do disagree that people should be able to modify their skins (unless it's with a skin package loaded to the server which everyone can use, like the old Homer Simpson skins ) - this can give some players an unfair advantage and is really unnecessary. The brightskin feature was one included in all sorts of aimbots and it really deteriorates the game.
            Purveyor of Unreal Tournament.

            <khxmz> thanksgiving is about being thankful for what you have nvz, not asking your favorite game developer for more hats

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              #21
              Originally posted by CognizanCe View Post
              Far too bright imo.
              The yellow makes it feel a bit sporty, but where's that place supposed to be?
              Just feels like random architecture.
              I'm sure it plays well, but it's like no attention was paid to the rest of the map to aid in immersion.
              Curious if you have played the COMP maps in UT3? I agree that it would nice to have a "reason for being" for each of them. The key point is that many of them are INSANELY fun to play because of both the z-axis and the high visibility of targets. Anyway, I would prefer Epic create beautiful, fun to play maps with a purpose and I'm sure our COMP friends will create a new batch of maps at some point to satisfy fans of those maps.
              Unreal Carnage.com UT4 Maps: DM-Maelstrom DM-SpaceNoxx

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                #22
                I'm sure it plays well, but it's like no attention was paid to the rest of the map to aid in immersion.
                • very interesting to see the comments like these in the Unreal Engine 4 Forums.
                • The people active here are totally different to the "apparently competitive" players from UT3, totally different to the mappers that made "apparently great maps", they are also different to the active members from previous unreal games/ forums.
                  @ CognizanCe: ^^ have you been part of these forums?

                - i ask because MA^L basically asking the same thing.
                Curious if you have played the COMP maps in UT3?
                • --- it sounds like you are basing your opinion on a short clip or IMG, but you don't explain you personal opinion or how to get a better blend of both visual and gameplay.
                • Do you want maps to have Great visuals or favour gameplay?
                • It's difficult to get that balance perfect everytime,


                HOLP is about always getting the gameplay right, they rarely have any focus on visual "theme" or even performance..... textures are added just to make it 'pretty'(sortv'e).
                - The game play is usually really good.


                Building a map with great game play, that makes sense structurally, with great visuals is something i have been working on (in my head) since before the release of UE4. Hopefully, based on the comments on the forums, this will be achieved by both myself and others.
                Last edited by TKBS; 06-05-2014, 09:43 AM.
                Download_AllMyStuff | videos_ofmystuff

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                  #23
                  Chris, I have something to mention that I feel is easily forgotten here on these forums but which can end up having a huge influence on how the visuals of the game turn out.

                  Everyone wants colours, but I am afraid that we might end up with too much colour.

                  Originally posted by JTF195 View Post
                  Here's the UDK version of DM-Deck. The main difference is that it's daytime, so the main chamber is flooded with light from the sky.
                  [pictures]
                  (http://imgur.com/a/9bwyI)
                  I'm quoting this because I would like to point out that it was not textures that added the majority of the colour beauty to the maps of the very first UT - and in fact, the UDK port of Deck can even underline this thesis as the new lighting did a lot to clean up its look and improve its visual quality.
                  Sure, the dirt on the textures is too contrastful and dark in UT3, the textures in UT99 had only subtle dirt layers on them but they had dirtlayers on them and this was something that was part of the game in every single incarnation, it is important to keep this in mind.

                  The textures were also not that colourful either.
                  In fact, open any of the UT99 maps in unlit mode in the UEd2, the common colour schemes of the textures used in UT99 maps are brown, grey and desaturated blue (going towards grey), weak red or some sort of rust colour, dark green and some sort of desaturated bright yellow (most common colour seems to be brown though and I'm not counting team/base-specific textures of highly saturated red and blue!). You see, there are colours, but they are quite weak and desaturated.
                  The textures per map are usually also limited to 2 or 3 colours - rarely more! From time to time, there were some highly saturated textures for contrast (e.g. the red carpet in DM-Gothic), basically accents.

                  Now, open UEd3 and check out the UT2004 maps in unlit mode. You will immediately notice that UT2004's textures are much more saturated (at least those in outdoor maps, best example I can think of is AS-Subrosa) and they also contain more contrast. Remember all the posts complaining about UT2004's "comic look"? There we go.
                  We can nail it down to exactly this issue in combination with UE2's better (and more intense) lighting I think.
                  UT2004 had colourful lighting but also more saturated and contrastful textures than UT99 - and colourful player skins and weapons. Saturated colours + contrasts that pronounce outlines + the highly saturated lighting = comic look. See where this came from? The feel can be fixed by weakening the intensity of colours (even a strong brown contributes to the look) and the contrast of outlines (details on textures) which then comes closer to the feel of UT99 maps. If necessary, I can pick texture examples from UT99 and UT2004 that share a theme and show what I mean.

                  It is important to avoid a combination of colourful (lighting) and colourful (textures)! My suggestion is to keep this in mind when creating the art assets for our new UT, let mappers add colours via lighting, UE4's lighting system is simply beautiful and we should make proper use of it. Having less saturated colours in textures actually allows for more freedom as we as mappers don't have to desaturate the scene with post process if we want to deviate from the colourful norm while using the stock assets (which is imo also necessary, one can't just make everything colourful, some exceptions for variety is also important).

                  I feel the need to stress this because I am actually afraid that the game will end up having colourful superclean textures and colourful lighting - which then again will harm visual clarity as both together result in a different form of "map clutter".
                  No doubt, the player models of UT99 had saturated colours, the environment's textures did not, almost all dominant colours came from lighting and that's another reason why it was easy to identify pickups (as they had saturated colours as well) and players in an environment - simple shapes of geometry aside.

                  So, the saturation of textures is another important factor to visual clarity.


                  In case examples are needed: Barricade, Curse, Peak, Gothic but the best examples I can come up with spontaneously are DM-Tempest, CTF-HallOfGiants and DOM-Gearbolt. I highly suggest to check them out and see for yourself. Especially in Hall Of Giants, the entire green mood with team colour accent-theme comes from just the lighting, the map itself is a mess of brown and rusty orange.
                  I also suggest to dig through texture packages in both, UT99 and UT2004 and then make a comparison to the (too contrastful-dirt-cluttered) textures of UT3 as well.
                  Last edited by Sly.; 06-05-2014, 12:39 PM. Reason: edited to explain something better
                  S l y .

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                    #24
                    Yeap, I generally agree with what Sly is saying. One thing that isn't shown in the first post is the Shock Rifle room. If you did, you'd notice that the UT1 room has super colourful lighting! I couldn't find a screenshot of that exactly, but this is a fine example of the lighting in the Sniper area, at least:
                    Click image for larger version

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                    The textures themselves aren't very colourful at all, but the lighting is what gives it the really nice look.

                    That's what I think is not right in that DM-Edge video bass3 showed. It has no good lighting, the colours only come from textures. The feeling is that of Mirror's Edge, which I don't think fits the game at all.

                    As I mentioned in another post, Mass Effect had good visuals in that regard; there the lighting is also what gives colour. And coloured lighting is what makes it look good.
                    Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
                    My website, listing all my Unreal series mods and mutators

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                      #25
                      I really like those untextured shots, especially from UT3 version of Deck. I agree with the fact that there was way too much post-processing stuff on the screen in UT3, textures were too noisy, many levels were too dark and the contrast was too high.
                      I hope you guys don't go too crazy with screen space reflections ( which is the cool new thing this generation :P ) cuz this might cause some distraction during gameplay : >.
                      My portfolio : krystian.krissart.pl
                      My UT map (WIP) : Tropical Tower

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                        #26
                        Chris, your comments and examples are spot on and I'm encouraged when I hear that keeping the geometry and texture detail under controls is a priority. Given your examples, I'm struck by how distracting some of the textures and lightning really was in UT3.

                        Noticed another poster mention "HOLP" and I can't help but remember how playing on HOLP maps in UT3 really saved the game for me. The radical departure from simpler and more angular maps in favor of darker and grittier environments was a real turn off for me and several of my friends who made it thru high school by playing Unreal and UT99 on our old 3dfx Graphics cards. There is something to be said for keeping things simple from an art and mapping perspective and allowing the visuals complement the movement and gameplay rather than try to play ball-hog.

                        For anyone who hasn't, I'd highly encourage you to check out the "HOLP" or "Hardcore Oldschool Low-Poly" map pack that was released. (http://holp.beyondunreal.com/) The entire goal was to clean up the visuals and let the gameplay shine thru. While they may have overshot the ball a little, they were certainly on to something!

                        Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                        Oh, I didn't realize it was already in there. Too lazy to check. Doh!

                        See, that looks about a million times better, less muddy and less noisy. I really think the lighting model was the number one problem with UT3's levels. The lack of color and such was another problem, but that could be solved easier in that picture than the actual UT3 one.
                        Wow, I hadn't realized this was in there either. I would venture to say that the textured version, even in the well lit environment, does not look as interesting as the version that is simply "lit."

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Chris Perna

                          I'm guessing that this UT will look very different from any we've shipped before (in a good way) but it's nice to have a quick side by side to compare and contrast against our memories so that we can identify the pros and cons.

                          -Chris
                          Looking at this thread and after watching the stream from yesterday i somewhat agree about some things.

                          Egyptian sytle was over used in Ut2004. Im not saying its bad, but it was used too much. If the game has a healthy mixture of many styles, i dont think a few egyptian style maps would hurt, but lets not make the same mistake again. However that Chinese/Asian art style what UT3 had doesn't fit into the UT frenchise in my opinion. I hope it will be forgotten. I think the same about the necris style. In my opinion that also didnt fit the UT frenchise. Maybe too much Gears of War influence as it was stated in the stream.

                          I also hope that UT2004 wont be completely forgotten.

                          I really liked the style of maps like BR-Serenity, BR-Canyon, BR-Colossus, DOM-Renascent, DOM-Sepukkugorge, DM-Antalus, DM-DesertIsland.
                          From the custom maps my favourite maps are DM-Goose2k4, DM-Akbal2k4, DOM-Enchanted, DOM-Mayanruins
                          Or i could say most ONS/DOM maps with ruins/nature. ArcticStrongHold, Dawn etc.

                          I really liked the combo of sunshine, nature / or sunshine / ruins. I don't think every map has to be dark, so i hope these styles what the above mentioned maps represent would remain in the game.
                          Last edited by Hektoerr; 06-20-2014, 04:24 PM.

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                            #28
                            I don't think any of those styles are a bad fit for the greater UT universe. Its all in how you execute them. The Space Egyptian thing can work incredibly well, as can Traditional Japanese inspired things, and frankly, the idea for a subset of Necris that is "Geiger meets Pan-Arabian styles" is just fantastic and has HUGE potential, even if the way it was put together in UT3 was a noisy mess. The "DETAIL ALL THE THINGS!" methodology from Gears had a lot to do with why the aesthetic was broken. Each piece, in isolation, is nothing short of jaw dropping. The character models are detailed and rich, the environment is sculpted, organic, and complex, and even the streets had multiple layers with conduits and slats. If you look at some of the UT3 and gears art dumps (at polycount.. maybe other places) the individual pieces are just amazing. However, some noise is introduced in the texturing, and the geometric detail + textural noise created an entire field of visual noise when put together with other assets which were similar. This would be great for a slow walkthrough or virtual tour, but not a fast paced shooter. The core styles themselves are fine, so long as much more low frequency detail is included, and high frequency detail is used to add portions of visual interest.
                            Basically not being afraid of a road that is just a road, rather than a techno conduit and road. or a wall that is just structural brick, rather than an elaborate frieze.

                            " I would venture to say that the textured version, even in the well lit environment, does not look as interesting as the version that is simply "lit." as Wag said, really highlights what's going on. The level of visual detail in the geometry is just about perfect, but the addition of more high frequency detail in the textures, to low frequency detail geometric areas hurts the overall scene. Look at just the lit shots. All the high frequency geometry detail is places you cannot readily go and is outside the main arena space. Even the edges of the ramps are high frequency detail, as if to say "playable space ends here". So if the texture work reinforced that, the overall scene reading, and play would have been much better.

                            Regarding the core style: I've often felt that Unreal and Games Workshop stuff share a core aesthetic, specifically in that everything is essentially believable but turned up to Unreal. Its that balance of being over the top without being ridiculous or cartooned. GW stuff also often has that nice balance of high and low frequency detail that's so key to staying instantly readable while still being visually interesting.

                            All that said: I'm glad that this visual clarity was recognized as a need for this game and its aesthetic.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                              Yeap, I generally agree with what Sly is saying. One thing that isn't shown in the first post is the Shock Rifle room. If you did, you'd notice that the UT1 room has super colourful lighting! I couldn't find a screenshot of that exactly, but this is a fine example of the lighting in the Sniper area, at least:
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]4616[/ATTACH]
                              The textures themselves aren't very colourful at all, but the lighting is what gives it the really nice look.

                              That's what I think is not right in that DM-Edge video bass3 showed. It has no good lighting, the colours only come from textures. The feeling is that of Mirror's Edge, which I don't think fits the game at all.

                              As I mentioned in another post, Mass Effect had good visuals in that regard; there the lighting is also what gives colour. And coloured lighting is what makes it look good.
                              I disagree. To me, the coloring in that screenshot looks bland and dated and I would hate for that style to be carried forward. I would much rather prefer the new look to be more in the vein of these.









                              Granted, too much color can be a problem also and the busyness of the scene needs to be managed, but I'm tired of all the dark, gritty environments that's so prolific in games nowadays. I also think that this type of look ties better into the idea of a spectator sport designed to entertain viewers.

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                                #30
                                For me, that UT3 map is just plain awful. It looks like a cartoon level.

                                I really like the level that philipk and pinto made, though. That's the kind of visual style I'm really interested in. Also, the ShooterGame sample level is quite good in that regard, as well. In addition, there need to be elements that give each level consistency. In the past I've called this the "Liandri touch". All the levels were made for the tournament, and I would really like to see repurposed mining facilities and such across a wide variety of environments that complement that visual style.

                                I like the style of UT but I don't think it's realistic to have brown and grey levels where the only splashes of color are in the lighting effects. I think those certainly should exist, but I also like the concept of having an orange discolored by red alarm lights and whatnot. What I liked in UT was the variety that also had cohesiveness and consistency. Every level felt different, but they all shared common elements that reminded you they were part of the whole. That should be the goal.

                                That can be taken way too far, of course, like UT3 (I think I might have mentioned that earlier in this thread). Everything should feel like it is part of the whole, but everything should be individually memorable and unique. A corporation running a sportslike tournament 500 years from now certainly wouldn't make all their arenas look the same bland color and with nearly identical architecture even across environments.
                                HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                                BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

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