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    #46
    Originally posted by AvatarofWhat View Post
    Yea, I wasnt the biggest fan of 2k4 either but Im glad we can agree that certain things can be taken from it.

    I've never played monsterhunt but I wasn't trying to say it can't be done through that. I was just saying that the traditional gamemodes(DM, TDM, CTF) make it harder to explain a story outside of a "tournament" context without seeming forced and cheesy(as UT 3 showed us). I don't know how monsterhunt works but I would look forward to trying out a single player game mode based on something besides DM/TDM/CTF/Assault. I do think that there should be a single player campaign based on these modes whether your idea is brought to fruition or not, because many players will use the single player experience as a way to transition to online play. I think there is merit to having players learn the same maps and game-modes that they would play online through the main single player experience. The offline challenges do provide that to some degree however, so I'd be interested in what the designers think.
    Best description would be Unreal (the old single player shooter) with 16+ player coop...

    Or better yet, Serious Sam with Unreal Universe monsters in 16+ player coop. That is exactly what MonsterHunt in UT99 was. Though I think this model for the game mode could be taken much further.

    This coop action would be THE ideal way to introduce some new players, because in online PVP they just get rekt by the small community of elite players that are currently playing and they uninstall shortly afterwards.

    I'll PM you some videos to see what MH is like.
    Last edited by InVader; 01-19-2016, 07:00 PM.
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      #47
      @darkloser

      I disagree, I think casual players will want more from their single player experience, not less. If they don't like the team management aspect of it, the offline challenges provide a nice alternative. Some people may prefer them to a deeper experience where you manage your team and thats OK, but it doesnt mean that there isnt a room for both. What I think is important to consider here is that no one is going to be turned away by such an experience, because if you don't like it, you just ignore it and go play other modes. This happens in games all the time. Some people just don't care for call of duty single player campaigns and hop straight into quick match or multiplayer. Other games offer alternative modes where you have to manage things outside the core gameplay, but it doesnt stop people who don't enjoy that particular addition from enjoying the base game. An example of that would be the blazblue fighting games. The later games have story, survival(with rpg like properties), a mode where you conquer other characters and add them to your team, and more, yet it doesnt stop many from jumping straight into Arcade(soft comparison to challenges for ut), vs CPU mode( comparison to custom match vs bots in UT), practice mode, or online play. The quick-play hop into a match sort of thing that has been very successful for Unreal Tournament is not going to go away, even if it has a deeper single player experience that you can choose to play as well.

      More competitive players will jump straight to online play and skip the single player, which is fine, but many casual players will want a bit more replayability for offline. New offline challenges every once in a while offers that, but a campaign where you manage a team you lead can offer even more.

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        #48
        Originally posted by InVader View Post
        Best description would be Unreal (the old single player shooter) with 16+ player coop...

        Or better yet, Serious Sam with Unreal Universe monsters in 16+ player coop. That is exactly what MonsterHunt in UT99 was. Though I think this model for the game mode could be taken much further.

        This coop action would be THE ideal way to introduce some new players, because in online PVP they just get rekt by the small community of elite players that are currently playing and they uninstall shortly afterwards.

        I'll PM you some videos to see what MH is like.

        sounds cool, i'd love to see the videos.

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          #49
          Originally posted by AvatarofWhat View Post
          @darkloser

          I disagree, I think casual players will want more from their single player experience, not less. If they don't like the team management aspect of it, the offline challenges provide a nice alternative. Some people may prefer them to a deeper experience where you manage your team and thats OK, but it doesnt mean that there isnt a room for both. What I think is important to consider here is that no one is going to be turned away by such an experience, because if you don't like it, you just ignore it and go play other modes. This happens in games all the time. Some people just don't care for call of duty single player campaigns and hop straight into quick match or multiplayer. Other games offer alternative modes where you have to manage things outside the core gameplay, but it doesnt stop people who don't enjoy that particular addition from enjoying the base game. An example of that would be the blazblue fighting games. The later games have story, survival(with rpg like properties), a mode where you conquer other characters and add them to your team, and more, yet it doesnt stop many from jumping straight into Arcade(soft comparison to challenges for ut), vs CPU mode( comparison to custom match vs bots in UT), practice mode, or online play. The quick-play hop into a match sort of thing that has been very successful for Unreal Tournament is not going to go away, even if it has a deeper single player experience that you can choose to play as well.

          More competitive players will jump straight to online play and skip the single player, which is fine, but many casual players will want a bit more replayability for offline. New offline challenges every once in a while offers that, but a campaign where you manage a team you lead can offer even more.
          Well if the team manager is a separate mode, then I'm all for it. What I'm against if it's an obligation to play with the single campaign and story mode. I'm a huge fan of lore and things like that, I just want to know more about the universe and enjoy it, and not fill my mind with a management of team with all their stats to take into consideration as well as their health etc... I just to get a quick good time, THEN move on something else, offline or online. And that's what I think (casual) people are looking for about a campaign (at least the first time they play it), and not immediatly have to understand and manage so much information when they come just to enjoy a story, akin to when they come to enjoy a movie. And the campaign also serve as an introduction to the basics of the game, if you already start with taking care about so much details and elements (gameplay wise) you'll just threw a lot of people of.

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            #50
            I think doing something like what they did in UT3 is fine as long as there is also a Tournament mode. People liked the Tournament mode in previous games and it is a better place for Tournament related lore than in a strictly single player experience. I also think that the Tournament mode should be designed for co-op from the very beginning like was originally planned for UT2003. People like co-op and people like co-op versus bots. The Tournament mode is good for that and it drives people to try different game modes.

            It would even be kind of cool if there was an easy way for modders to plug custom gametypes/maps into the Tournament mode so after you get custom content you also start seeing that content factor into the Tournament mode. It could make it a more organic and dynamic experience that would lead people to play it even more. It would be a viable mode in its own right. Maybe that could even be controlled by Epic in some way so at different points the Tournament is heavily focused on DM modes and other times it is heavily focused on team modes, and that somehow plays into an even larger "Tournament" that is people playing that mode.
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              #51
              Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
              I think doing something like what they did in UT3 is fine as long as there is also a Tournament mode. People liked the Tournament mode in previous games and it is a better place for Tournament related lore than in a strictly single player experience. I also think that the Tournament mode should be designed for co-op from the very beginning like was originally planned for UT2003. People like co-op and people like co-op versus bots. The Tournament mode is good for that and it drives people to try different game modes.

              It would even be kind of cool if there was an easy way for modders to plug custom gametypes/maps into the Tournament mode so after you get custom content you also start seeing that content factor into the Tournament mode. It could make it a more organic and dynamic experience that would lead people to play it even more. It would be a viable mode in its own right. Maybe that could even be controlled by Epic in some way so at different points the Tournament is heavily focused on DM modes and other times it is heavily focused on team modes, and that somehow plays into an even larger "Tournament" that is people playing that mode.
              Love these ideas Sir_Brizz. The problem with playing with friends online is that often RL friends have vastly different abilities when it comes to certain games. That often leads to frustration as one player gets his butt kicked and the other feels like his RL friend is dragging him down. co-op against bots is just the sort of no pressure environment where you can introduce friends to the game stress free. This might be able to work with the team management concept by having one player host the game and be team leader and basically recruit another player who connects into the game into their team. If you are on teamspeak you can work out the management part together if you wish, but one player would hold the controls. Even cooler would be others ability to join your tournament with their own team and compete against you, assuming you had an option checked to allow that to happen.

              @darkloser, I think I understand what your getting at. I didnt mean the story and the campaign would be separate from the team management in this particular case. I was talking about challenges vs the campaign, but I see now that you would like to experience the story as well. I better understand what you mean now and perhaps can offer a solution to your specific needs. Perhaps this could easily be solved by adding options before you start the campaign such as "automatic team management" and "auto-resolve NPC interactions". Basically you check those options and you don't have to engage in rpg-like dialogue with the NPCs or look at stats or manage your team or anything, the game resolves all the for you. You just sit back, read a little about the team or individuals you are about to face, and then go into a match. For people who do want more they can manage everything themselves, get real deep into individual characters perspectives on the UT universe, and more. Personally I'd prefer to do all this but having the computer do all of that automatically would be a simple way to solve the problem for individuals who wish to play the campaign, see some of the story, but skip any sort of team management or dealings with NPCs. This campaign would be in addition to other offline modes such as challenges, which do not require the player to even listen to a bit of story, but rather just hop straight into the game.
              Last edited by AvatarofWhat; 01-19-2016, 08:33 PM.

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                #52
                Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                I think doing something like what they did in UT3 is fine as long as there is also a Tournament mode. People liked the Tournament mode in previous games and it is a better place for Tournament related lore than in a strictly single player experience. I also think that the Tournament mode should be designed for co-op from the very beginning like was originally planned for UT2003. People like co-op and people like co-op versus bots. The Tournament mode is good for that and it drives people to try different game modes.

                It would even be kind of cool if there was an easy way for modders to plug custom gametypes/maps into the Tournament mode so after you get custom content you also start seeing that content factor into the Tournament mode. It could make it a more organic and dynamic experience that would lead people to play it even more. It would be a viable mode in its own right. Maybe that could even be controlled by Epic in some way so at different points the Tournament is heavily focused on DM modes and other times it is heavily focused on team modes, and that somehow plays into an even larger "Tournament" that is people playing that mode.
                The latter would be particularly cool. People could also be rewarded with hats or something for completing all that stuff on various difficulty levels.

                Anyways, I definitively don't want to mix MonsterHunt with the Tournament mode. They should be 2 separate "episodes" so to speak. Tournament is simply a Tournament. Beat Xan to win. Monsterhunt is much better suited to tell the player stories of e.g. Robot uprising, human-skaarj war, maybe a Necris war if that's where the story takes us. The Tournament could replicate various scenarios in an Assault game mode again, mostly related to the corporate skirmishes. It would be a controlled match between 2 teams. MonsterHunt would turn the group of players into OP killing machines, that are put up against hundreds of slightly weaker enemies, instead of the regular strong AI bots against which you play offline matches.
                Last edited by InVader; 01-23-2016, 07:38 PM.
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                  #53
                  Where are we at with this, I mean I heard reboot and that the lore is being rewritten... Not much past that.

                  I think people are focusing too much on details and [MENTION=9934]Gregori[/MENTION]s initial post was on the ball in terms of summing up and amalgamating the UT lore, there is no reason the Necris should be vague after what 5 full games? I get it they are mysterious but we are here to develop not ducking possible spoilers because we are in too deep for that sort of thing. I do think revealling the Necris is needed, that they dont seem as sinister as they should because of the lack of lore.

                  Thats not to say I think it should be spread thick like chunky peanut butter, just play it smooth you know, rub alittle funk on it
                  Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                    Where are we at with this, I mean I heard reboot and that the lore is being rewritten... Not much past that.

                    I think people are focusing too much on details and @Gregoris initial post was on the ball in terms of summing up and amalgamating the UT lore, there is no reason the Necris should be vague after what 5 full games? I get it they are mysterious but we are here to develop not ducking possible spoilers because we are in too deep for that sort of thing. I do think revealling the Necris is needed, that they dont seem as sinister as they should because of the lack of lore.

                    Thats not to say I think it should be spread thick like chunky peanut butter, just play it smooth you know, rub alittle funk on it
                    IF lore will get any attention at all, that is. I know I would pay good money for the episodic DLC developed by Epic internally, taking us to all kinds of times and places in the Unreal Universe, fighting of monsters in good ol' MonsterHunt gamemodes, explaining some lore about how it all happened, getting a closer look at all the races...

                    Regardless of the grand visions we all had for this game, I get the feeling this game will remain a simple little online arena shooter with no focus on the lore whatsoever. Especially if they want to release the game this year (as unbelievable that sounds).
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                      #55
                      Originally posted by InVader View Post
                      IF lore will get any attention at all, that is. I know I would pay good money for the episodic DLC developed by Epic internally, taking us to all kinds of times and places in the Unreal Universe, fighting of monsters in good ol' MonsterHunt gamemodes, explaining some lore about how it all happened, getting a closer look at all the races...

                      Regardless of the grand visions we all had for this game, I get the feeling this game will remain a simple little online arena shooter with no focus on the lore whatsoever. Especially if they want to release the game this year (as unbelievable that sounds).
                      Yeah Im feeling ya, it wouldnt surprise me if they want to kick it out the door, one possibility that crossed my mind was the intent was always to pass the game to the community but thats wishful thinking or a nightmare depending on whichever way you look at it.

                      I know Epic is entirely capable of making awesome games and I do think we blame developers for publishers sometimes, I thought Epic caught abit of a raw deal with Midway over their time together, especially compared to the job Microsoft did with Gears and I dont even particularly like MS much. One thing that always struck a cord with me though was how the developers kinda blamed the tardy release of UT for its success, that they had more time to polish the game so it would really surprise me if the end goal was release this year and then its all over for UT.

                      Then again Gears really showed Epic didnt have to be focused on Unreal, that they could make successful IP and not just sequels, UT is kinda just another notch on the belt now, I do wonder what Unreal Warfare would have been, if XMP could have gone further or Tribes Vs future if it wasnt Ascend. Publishers can get in the way of good IP and thats not happening here so who knows whats next, I wish we did even remotely.
                      Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                        Yeah Im feeling ya, it wouldnt surprise me if they want to kick it out the door, one possibility that crossed my mind was the intent was always to pass the game to the community but thats wishful thinking or a nightmare depending on whichever way you look at it.
                        Oh, that would definitively kill the game. Right now the wishful thinking that the game will eventually become grand is the only thing what's keeping the few die-hard fans creating content for this game. Even so, it's super slow - granted, that fact that we are slow is because we don't have deadlines. Artists always find fault in their own work and unless they have a deadline they keep reworking it until it's perfect (that me -.-).

                        Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                        I know Epic is entirely capable of making awesome games and I do think we blame developers for publishers sometimes, I thought Epic caught a bit of a raw deal with Midway over their time together, especially compared to the job Microsoft did with Gears and I dont even particularly like MS much. One thing that always struck a cord with me though was how the developers kinda blamed the tardy release of UT for its success, that they had more time to polish the game so it would really surprise me if the end goal was release this year and then its all over for UT.

                        Then again Gears really showed Epic didnt have to be focused on Unreal, that they could make successful IP and not just sequels, UT is kinda just another notch on the belt now, I do wonder what Unreal Warfare would have been, if XMP could have gone further or Tribes Vs future if it wasnt Ascend. Publishers can get in the way of good IP and thats not happening here so who knows whats next, I wish we did even remotely.
                        I wouldn't really call UT "another one" right now. Arena shooters are really not what they used to be anymore and are rather unpopular, but the name of UT is strong. Toxikk has 1k+ reviews overall in steam early access, 83% positive, yet the servers are still dead. We are not even on Steam, but we can keep our servers populated, which is cool.

                        If it gets released as an incomplete mess though, that's practically a death sentence. I don't think any of the current content creators will be motivated enough to try and save the game after that. Given that nobody is really pushing Epic towards release (other than themselves), it's a surprising decision to make for sure. Even if Epic would pull resources and workforce from Fortnite (which might have happened already) and Paragon (which will never happen) they can't possibly create and polish vehicles/vehicle game modes and maps by the end of this year.
                        Last edited by InVader; 05-04-2016, 01:39 PM.
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                          #57
                          Unreal has a story, but UT is like WWE meets Total Recall

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Ashenwraith View Post
                            Unreal has a story, but UT is like WWE meets Total Recall
                            I would have said The Running Man myself, or Blade Runner because of the more urban intro (no not Keith ) but sure I can see the WWE connection. Even fighting games have stories though, it might be the same boring formula each time that doesnt mean its not there, b-grade underground fighting ring movies just keep getting made so they must be popular, look at something like Spartacus... Wildly popular among adults because it doesnt treat them like children, its the same with GoT. I wish this UT wasnt e-sports focused because then we could capture a market outside of that, one thats ripe for the picking, adults play games too, we dont just play war games either some of us have broader tastes.

                            I want UT to play on its strength, it doesnt need to be AAA cuz its entirely indie, it can be a b-grade action movie targeted at adults who want more thrills. Right now it doesnt have much aura, its just a shooter, I think it needs story to set the scene and without that it just feels like some weird intergalatic cartoon.
                            Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by MonsOlympus View Post
                              I would have said The Running Man myself, or Blade Runner because of the more urban intro (no not Keith ) but sure I can see the WWE connection. Even fighting games have stories though, it might be the same boring formula each time that doesnt mean its not there, b-grade underground fighting ring movies just keep getting made so they must be popular, look at something like Spartacus... Wildly popular among adults because it doesnt treat them like children, its the same with GoT. I wish this UT wasnt e-sports focused because then we could capture a market outside of that, one thats ripe for the picking, adults play games too, we dont just play war games either some of us have broader tastes.

                              I want UT to play on its strength, it doesnt need to be AAA cuz its entirely indie, it can be a b-grade action movie targeted at adults who want more thrills. Right now it doesnt have much aura, its just a shooter, I think it needs story to set the scene and without that it just feels like some weird intergalatic cartoon.
                              The Running Man and Blade Runner take place on mostly normal Earth with humans.

                              So many people claim to be fans of these games but their recollection seems spotty at best:

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18Va6bl1Q4

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by Ashenwraith View Post
                                The Running Man and Blade Runner take place on mostly normal Earth with humans.

                                So many people claim to be fans of these games but their recollection seems spotty at best:

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18Va6bl1Q4
                                Im not sure theres a point in there somewhere, so far in this UT I havent seen alot of Alien have you? The Necris and Skaarj are very humanoid and all the structures still look very human architecture. Total Recall and Blade Runner were meant to be linked, Minory Report came out of Total Recall 2 or somethin, in Blade Runner they do go to other planets you never really see it, maybe I should have said the lesser known Tex Murphy instead.

                                The Running Man is what I envision UT to become if it ever took itself seriously, a game about a bloodsport with over the top commentators (and desensitized crowds), action hero styled characters etc, more SP orientated obviously. UT2003 glamorized it because Malcolm was ontop of his game winning then Gorge knocks him down a peg, the game gets darker in UT2004 and the return of Xan, the death of Damarus. Trust me, I play the games... The original seemed darker to me, especially in regards to character bios, the follow ups were all more sports orientated which is fine but I think theres room for both, you go from the minor leagues into the majors and then you probably filter people online or let em continue offline maybe even with bot ghosts of their friends to improve the AI game.

                                Last edited by MonsOlympus; 05-06-2016, 09:02 AM.
                                Upon release, Unreal Tournament 2004 was met with widespread critical acclaim. Several critics praised the unique, fast-paced, fun and challenging nature of the game as its main selling points, while fans touted the post-release support and extensive modding capabilities.

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