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      Well, yes, in the definition of the literature genre, UT is cyberpunk-themed.
      But as I said, for me, Matrix fashion isn't "cyberpunk" but "soft-goth." Pretty much already against my taste and outdated since the new millenium, but still better than what I would understand as real "cyberpunk" fashionwise (which is apparently called "cybergoth" really), the neon color punk style. But that's just my opinion, I'm for Gooba's futuristic vampire concept, if you want cyberpunk/soft-goth/cybergoth/... Necris, go suggest that.

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        Most of the character designs from original UT have more "Metal" influence than they do Cyberpunk, particularly the Necris.

        Take this classic UT image.

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        Compare to a classic Metal album cover.

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        The stylistic elements are so similar you could put a band name on the top image and it'd basically become an album cover at that point.
        This isn't a mark against it either, the elements it's using in this composition make you think, "Wow, cool, I want to be that guy." It's very effective.


        The Necris do have a strong 'Goth' / Vampiric vibe to them as well, but this isn't incompatible with the Metal styles they are portraying.

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        Illustration: Male Metalhead or Male Necris? Give this guy a chestplate instead of a T-shirt and it'd basically be indistinguishable Basic Corpse-Paint Metal look, the exact same menacing features and characteristics that the Necris are meant to embody Vampy Female metalhead look. This look is a little less overtly sexual than UT99 Necris, and could add some Goth elements, but it's still in the same book. More basic female metalhead look. Again has many of the same design elements we see in Necris like criss-cross drawstrings, cut away sections, etc.
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          Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
          Well, yes, in the definition of the literature genre, UT is cyberpunk-themed.
          But as I said, for me, Matrix fashion isn't "cyberpunk" but "soft-goth." Pretty much already against my taste and outdated since the new millenium...
          Well... design which is strongly outdated become retro. And retro is cooler and more original than trying to look like everybody else but with a minor difference. Almost everybody who mentions Aliens: Isolation is saying that it was very good design choice that they made computers and other stuff look like from first Alien movie (i mean, old as F) rather than modernizing it.

          @Wail
          I totally agree. I will write longer answer later.
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            Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
            Well... design which is strongly outdated become retro. And retro is cooler and more original than trying to look like everybody else but with a minor difference.
            I'd argue "retro" and "rehash" is exactly cheaper, coming up with real new styles that feel familiar is the real art! But you didn't like UT3's amazing modern art already and want back pure 90's designs, fine. The similarities of covers from metal bands and UT99 are more just a result of both being colorful heroic art works of the same time, I'd say. Both gaming and metal bands use more HD resolution pictures nowadays, except if they're going for retro on purpose. But who wants to remake old designs if he has novelties like Gooba's futuristic high and still so traditional castles!? That's what I call new, unique but still familiar and Unreal-DNA-celebrating. We need Necris who match these!

            And I think there's always a golden mean, I can also imagine Necris more into the "Vampy Female metalhead look" of Wail's 5th pic, which I'd call "vampiry" but not much "metal." For me, everything metal/punk is too often rather "trashy" (like pics 3,4,6 ), vampiry can be "classy" too.

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              Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
              Well, yes, in the definition of the literature genre, UT is cyberpunk-themed.
              But as I said, for me, Matrix fashion isn't "cyberpunk" but "soft-goth." Pretty much already against my taste and outdated since the new millenium, but still better than what I would understand as real "cyberpunk" fashionwise (which is apparently called "cybergoth" really), the neon color punk style. But that's just my opinion, I'm for Gooba's futuristic vampire concept, if you want cyberpunk/soft-goth/cybergoth/... Necris, go suggest that.

              Scroll down on that wikipedia link to the video game section and you will find:

              "There are many cyberpunk video games. Popular series include the Deus Ex series, the Syndicate series, System Shock and its sequel. Other games, like Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell, and the Matrix series, are..."

              Aside from the Obvious cyberpunk themes in the setting around the film(the ships, Zion, etc), The Matrix isn't "soft goth" because they wear black and Trinity wears some leather. Look at the Samaritan Demo character. Look at the main characters of Deus Ex. Look at Harrison Ford in Blade Runner. Notice any similarity in clothing? The coats perhaps? This part isn't up for debate; The Matrix is Cyberpunk

              Now I do agree with Wail; there is a lot more metal vibe in UT (if you look at any 90's shooter, the cover art pretty much speak for themselves). The characters wear a mix of cloth and hard metallic armor, lending to more gladiatorial looks (a pretty obvious metaphor). But this is the point; this gladiators are dropped into a dystopia. The Necris lore functions much better as a violent counterculture experiment than actually being a culture or a race covered in crazy looking armor and tubes that look like a computer water-cooling system. The metallic armor they wear looks medieval, opposed to say the Dark Phalanx armor which is more iron age Greece/Rome (which ties to their name and story).

              Not saying we should direct copy UT99, but what can we do to evolve it? How can it keep the vibe while looking more serious and not as over the top?

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                I just tried to explain that although from the literature genre (dytopian, brutal futuristic society, mega corporations, etc.) UT is fully "cyberpunk-themed", there's no clear fashion style called "cyberpunk" distinguishable for me, that's why Matrix style (black trenchcoats & sunglasses) got the label "soft-goth" just as the more destinctive subform of fashion designs around the "cyberpunk genre." Using just cyberpunk to label every futuristic fashion style which isn't 100% perfectly clean and happy (which would be "utopian" instead of "cyberpunk") is no description of a distinct fashion style. "Cybergoth" is another subform of cyberpunk fashion. "Soft-goth" is just my label to describe the exact Matrix style, others here called it "cybernetic fatty" which is less politically correct but also clearly describing the distinct Matrix cyberpunk fashion style (which is often seen on nerds that don't match the Keanu Reeves handsomeness ofc ). Call it "cyber-metal", "trendy-goth" or what you want and I'm in no way against your wish for that style, I just wanted to distinguish the various "cyberpunk" and "punk" styles a bit furthermore, just that we can discuss with a better understanding of what the other person really means and stated that it's not my taste.

                Coming from a point of "no 100% remake of UT99, but let's see how we can give UT more nostalgia values" stops being acceptable right at that point, where it doesn't imply a "making sure there's still enough consistency and modern designs for the fans of the newer UTs" aswell, which I totally miss from you UT99 guys and is really all I'm asking for.
                Last edited by TheoRiginal; 03-26-2015, 11:48 AM.

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                  What if the Necris in UT3 were just a breakaway faction and after the events of UT3 they were able to revive Jester with making her partially Necris but putting a chip or something in her that fought off the process completely so her personality stayed the same and in check so to try and get revenge on Malcolm her and Reaper enter the next Liandri Grand Tournament and progress through the ladders until the Championship bracket where it pits [your character], Reaper, Xan, and Jester (chip malfunctions and she loses control of herself) in a Deathmatch to make it to the final round against Malcolm and become the next Liandri Grand Champion. Since the chip in her head or cybernetic modifications to her body would fight off the Necris consuming her she wouldnt look 100% Necris like what happened with Lauren in UC2.

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                    Originally posted by Kypperstyx View Post
                    What if the Necris in UT3 were just a breakaway faction and after the events of UT3 they were able to revive Jester with making her partially Necris but putting a chip or something in her that fought off the process completely so her personality stayed the same and in check so to try and get revenge on Malcolm her and Reaper enter the next Liandri Grand Tournament and progress through the ladders until the Championship bracket where it pits [your character], Reaper, Xan, and Jester (chip malfunctions and she loses control of herself) in a Deathmatch to make it to the final round against Malcolm and become the next Liandri Grand Champion. Since the chip in her head or cybernetic modifications to her body would fight off the Necris consuming her she wouldnt look 100% Necris like what happened with Lauren in UC2.
                    Interesting adaptation! It's pretty much something like this that I had in mind. A nice solving of the two UT3 cliffhangers
                    1. Jester's death
                    2. Ronin vs. Malcolm

                    So if I thought there is still hope for a UT3-respecting continuation which satisfys even the UT99 heads here, I would try to bring together
                    • No more 'uber-bulky-cyborg' Necris
                    • Vampiry/Metal/Goth influenced Necris wanted (back)
                    • Resolution of Jester's fate (don't let her die! )
                    • Resolution/Continuation between Ronin and Malcolm conflict for his betrayal wanted
                    • Reaper & "Nice-Necris-Jester" vs. Malcolm & new "oldschool" Necris conflict is taken out in the next grand tournament

                    Wail & Co., please endeavour your (hopefully enough open) fantasy to embed that somehow into your UT lore view!

                    Malcolm is the hero of UT2004, Reaper the one of UT3 - but Malcolm betrayed the Ronin according to the UT3 storyline!
                    Should Reaper be able to eliminate Malcolm to satisfy his revenge or should Malcolm manage to hinder Reaper and kill him instead? Would be both way disappointing for one UT gen fans!

                    I think there could be a new big rivalry going on (like Tekken i.e. has between their "Michima clan" main chars along every version). So there's no clear loser or winner made out, but an ongoing conflict which is portrayed marginally where you can celebrate either side and get some sort of personal, emotional story background into the elsewise purely gameplay-relying tournament game. Maybe the UT99 hardliners here can live with the UT3 Ronin having a comeback and a continuation of storyline from UT3, if they eliminated the UT3 Necris cultures those fans did never accept as "good Necris."



                    Reaper: "Finally we meet again, that I can express my full appreciation to you, Malcolm!"
                    Malcolm: "Haha, you pitiful Ronin can't even reach the champion outside the tournament?"
                    Reaper: "I didn't try. Killing you once wouldn't be enough, only the respawners will give me my full vengeance!"
                    Last edited by TheoRiginal; 03-28-2015, 11:40 AM.

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                      I truly mean no offense to anyone when I say this, but bringing back Jester as some sort of "good Necris" sounds like something that would happen in comic book or a TV series that's been running for a few seasons too long. Seems a little too much like a "fairy tale ending" for a pretty dark dystopian world. Also when you try to create the story backwards from a desired goal it tends to get pretty convoluted because you are trying to create a setup for something rather than following the natural flow of things. It can technically make sense but that doesn't necessarily make it plausible.

                      Personally, I don't think any of UT3's story merits continuation in this game. It suffers from the same "backwards" flow as I mentioned above (like trying to cram CTF into an actual war scenario) and some of the dialogue would've been turned down by George Lucas himself. Not saying I think it should be retconned, just left to the imaginations/fanfics/mods of those who cared for it. Coming up with a good story is a lot of work and I doubt Epic has the resources/desire to hire the writer(s) necessary. I tend to agree with Mr. Wilcox in the "no story" department as far as the official campaign goes. A type of 'historical' backdrop would be great and help set a context for everything that happens, but it's really hard if not impossible to work quality drama into an arena shooter and UT3 was proof of that.

                      I would love to see people create single player campaigns that exist outside of the tournament and focus on specific characters/groups. It would allow for a lot more freedom by not having the requirement of being somehow crammed into the context of the tournament. If the 'official story' is vague but sets a proper context for the rest of the game, you can experience whichever specific variations you want without breaking the integrity of the whole.

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                        Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
                        Malcolm is the hero of UT2004, Reaper the one of UT3
                        Uhhh, no. Jakob is the "hero" of UT2004.

                        I guess DemoGuy is the hero of UT3.
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                          Originally posted by Fly Dungas View Post
                          I truly mean no offense to anyone when I say this, but bringing back Jester as some sort of "good Necris" sounds like something that would happen in comic book or a TV series that's been running for a few seasons too long. Seems a little too much like a "fairy tale ending" for a pretty dark dystopian world. Also when you try to create the story backwards from a desired goal it tends to get pretty convoluted because you are trying to create a setup for something rather than following the natural flow of things. It can technically make sense but that doesn't necessarily make it plausible.

                          Personally, I don't think any of UT3's story merits continuation in this game. It suffers from the same "backwards" flow as I mentioned above (like trying to cram CTF into an actual war scenario) and some of the dialogue would've been turned down by George Lucas himself. Not saying I think it should be retconned, just left to the imaginations/fanfics/mods of those who cared for it. Coming up with a good story is a lot of work and I doubt Epic has the resources/desire to hire the writer(s) necessary. I tend to agree with Mr. Wilcox in the "no story" department as far as the official campaign goes. A type of 'historical' backdrop would be great and help set a context for everything that happens, but it's really hard if not impossible to work quality drama into an arena shooter and UT3 was proof of that.

                          I would love to see people create single player campaigns that exist outside of the tournament and focus on specific characters/groups. It would allow for a lot more freedom by not having the requirement of being somehow crammed into the context of the tournament. If the 'official story' is vague but sets a proper context for the rest of the game, you can experience whichever specific variations you want without breaking the integrity of the whole.
                          Would surely be pretty cliché comic writing (just for being an insolveable drama which solves itself magically) but not bad at all imo (compared to some GeorgeLucas twists ) and from the perspective of a player who was amazed by UT3's story and cutscenes and who needs a resolution of the cliffhangers, it's the most amazing version that I can think of (it saves Jester and gives the Ronin their deserved revenge)!

                          I was very shocked that Jester was just presented dead at the end of UT3's campaign. I was totally identified with the Ronin fate having played through the entire campaign and got of course mad at Malcolm aswell. I either want him getting killed for his betrayal or at least Reaper (or Othello i.e. who was a UT99 char already btw ) to become Malcolm's worthy archnemesis in the next tournament!

                          Of course I agree and mentioned already that the war scenario and tournament idea were in conflict with eachother. Not only the just silly "F.L.A.G." acronyms on the battlefield, also the fixed tournament gameplay nature disturbed the war campaign. The story of the UT3 campaign was amazing, the gameplay was just not special at all. It was just instant action matches like normal UT. If the campaign had been singleplayer campaign adventures with different objectives within the same maps that have a second, normal UT gametype purpose, it would have been the perfect mix of Unreal and UT. Such can be seperate like you described, (community made) single-player expansions that bring real singleplayer campaign gameplay experience to existing UT locations.

                          But for the implementation of the official story continuation of and in the stock UT, you dont need a war scenario or a campaign. It can be just a marginal background info. If it was made like the background story in Tekken, it would just be a menu movie clip showing the vampy new "oldschool" Necris, in another scene the rising new special-necris Jester and in a third a Reaper in some Deck arena's locker room, throwing a knife at a Malcolm picture, for example.

                          I think Tekken is a perfect example [←YouTube] to provide an awesome character celebration and tournament rivalry background story immersion in totally short sequences, without any need for a campaign nor fixed losers of the overall tournament story. Every char is a unique hero, just what I'd wish for UT and the hopefully consistently-continued scenario of new encounters between Jester, Reaper, Malcolm and the other UT VIPs!


                          Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                          Uhhh, no. Jakob is the "hero" of UT2004.

                          I guess DemoGuy is the hero of UT3.
                          For you personally maybe. I have a hate on DemoGuy because that generic gear rack always shows up instead of my custom char...
                          Xan was the hero of UT99 for me btw, I would also love a great new reason why he is back and has a hate on some other contestant!

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                            Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
                            For you personally maybe. I have a hate on DemoGuy because that generic gear rack always shows up instead of my custom char...
                            Xan was the hero of UT99 for me btw, I would also love a great new reason why he is back and has a hate on some other contestant!
                            LOL...

                            Malcolm is presumably the "winner" of UT. Gorge is the "winner" of 2k3. Jakob is the "winner" of 2k4. The problem with UT3 is that it's not a tournament so we can just pretend DemoGuy is some poor scrub redshirt that died first in the war and then ignore the story in UT3 forevermore.
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                              I think that we dont really need all the cutscenes or story missions but rather just character model backgrounds like in UT99, even if the backstory goes the direction of my last post or a different direction I think it would be good to resolve what they set up in UT3 as well as not prioritize it over everything else, just have it kinda be there. New character models in the Marketplace could expand the Unreal Universe in an unlimited way as well.

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                                I think the game should be a prequel, and completely avoid the established storyline. Especially the storyline of UT3. Or just forget about the story entirely. Have a badass opening movie and that's it.

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