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    Originally posted by HitscanGaem View Post
    I was thinking about this during the day, and there may be a way to preserve both the nanomachine and the alternative/goth aspects keeping consistent with all UT's, including the two descriptions for the two newest Necris.
    Speaking only for myself: The problem I have with this kind of story, and other attempts to "explain the Necris" is that they're reductive and tonally inconsistent with how I see the UT world. If you look at the original UT games, you already have people who are cybernetically enhanced, you have people whose brains have been transferred into robots, you have outright AI opponents. Going with a technological explanation for why we have these characters is redundant. You also have a wide spectrum of military or ex-military figures. We have plenty of those, the bases for soldiers and mercenaries are easily covered. We don't need to emphasize that even more.

    It would be fine in another universe, but the tone of the universe we're introduced to Unreal & UT is not this one-note place focusing specifically on technology or on soldier-type characters. The Necris (99) were a faction that, to me were expansive rather than reductive. Their presence alluded to a bigger universe, stories that weren't being told otherwise. The way they were recast in later interpretations squandered all of that potential for the most unimaginative and superficial of rationales.
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      Nano-Black and the Necris:

      About how to destroy a myth. I take for example the Star Wars franchise...

      With the first three movies was the Force a mythical power something almighty and fantastic. You couldn't and didn't have to explain it but it worked. People discussed about it and made their own theories, fan-fiction did arise ...their was no limit to what the Force could be or what it was capable.

      Then the Episodes movies appeared and suddenly where the Force reduced to something "biological", to something you could measure with a device and the Force lost all it's mythical almighty fantastic power. It shrunk to a concentration of a substance in the cell of a lifeform.

      My conclusion.
      Don't try to explain something, what doesn't need to be explained.

      Nano-Black, brings people back.
      A resurrected person is never the same as before because of a huge trauma.
      Their Psyche and mind get damaged through the extreme experience of dying and been resurrected.
      How and why this happens is irrelevant.


      Keep it plausible in the UT universe, but keep it a myth.
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        Originally posted by Fartuess View Post

        For the rest. I thought that between Human Skaarj wars and UT it was like 10-20 years since some veterans of the war were participating in the tournament. And from what i know humanity was in state of corpocration before human-skaarj war, so corporations like Axon or Phayder already existed. NEG was the new thing. Goverment was created to force and guide corporation driven society in war. And after the war NEG survived but in the end it has to work a bit like corporation to stay alive.
        The Human Skaarj war vs when the tournament happened is a legitimate timeline plothole given the presence of Dark Phalanx & Blood Reavers, but nobody has tried to explain it and neither will I. Best left untouched and ignored I think.

        I took some liberties with things that have not been explained at the moment, I just needed an outlet to say why nanomachines did not take over the universe. Also since this is a cyber/dystopia world, megacorporations are huge and can encompass many fields. A "big pharma" can do more than pharma. I don't think much history of the earth explained before the NEG, what we know from Unreal was that there was a UMS, or some conglomerated human military. I would have to go back through the lore to remember the exact transition or creation of the NEG, but those are minor edits.

        I understand, and I knew when I wrote it that I am trying to explain something that should be kept shut. But I believe that lid has already been tossed open for the new UT4 Necris, so I was only trying to figure a way to relate it back to some kinda low life vs high life; subculture vs corporate backdrop. I just don't want it to be reduced to "some other corporation" with pale people. My favorite character is Xan, and I try and pretend the explanation in UT2004 is not canon. Only going off UT99 canon, we can be 90% sure he is a robot, but that still isn't 100%. But to UT99's credit, in the single player campaign it isn't until the very end that players face robots and Xan gets introduced. In the UT2003/4 ladders, robots are just another team fought early on, so encountering a "mystery cyborg" is much less of a deal.

        Anyway, the lid is off for UT4 Necris. Maybe it won't be for some other factions. We don't need an explanation for respawning, or how 90 year old war vets look young. But even given UT4's current Necris, I just don't get the pants. I've made that point a few times already, so I wont post more about it.

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          Originally posted by HitscanGaem View Post
          The Human Skaarj war vs when the tournament happened is a legitimate timeline plothole given the presence of Dark Phalanx & Blood Reavers, but nobody has tried to explain it and neither will I. Best left untouched and ignored I think.

          I took some liberties with things that have not been explained at the moment, I just needed an outlet to say why nanomachines did not take over the universe. Also since this is a cyber/dystopia world, megacorporations are huge and can encompass many fields. A "big pharma" can do more than pharma. I don't think much history of the earth explained before the NEG, what we know from Unreal was that there was a UMS, or some conglomerated human military. I would have to go back through the lore to remember the exact transition or creation of the NEG, but those are minor edits.

          I understand, and I knew when I wrote it that I am trying to explain something that should be kept shut. But I believe that lid has already been tossed open for the new UT4 Necris, so I was only trying to figure a way to relate it back to some kinda low life vs high life; subculture vs corporate backdrop. I just don't want it to be reduced to "some other corporation" with pale people. My favorite character is Xan, and I try and pretend the explanation in UT2004 is not canon. Only going off UT99 canon, we can be 90% sure he is a robot, but that still isn't 100%. But to UT99's credit, in the single player campaign it isn't until the very end that players face robots and Xan gets introduced. In the UT2003/4 ladders, robots are just another team fought early on, so encountering a "mystery cyborg" is much less of a deal.

          Anyway, the lid is off for UT4 Necris. Maybe it won't be for some other factions. We don't need an explanation for respawning, or how 90 year old war vets look young. But even given UT4's current Necris, I just don't get the pants. I've made that point a few times already, so I wont post more about it.
          Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. It's a tricky line to tread because we naturally want all of our questions answered, but what we want and what's good for having a setting with depth are at odds with each other. Then on top of that we have the bigger complication of trying to communicate ideas that we think are compelling without necessarily spelling out every angle of those ideas in a way that makes them no longer interesting.

          For me personally, I've taken to viewing this UT as essentially the J.J. Abrams Stars Wars reboot of Unreal. I can enjoy both old and new simultaneously for what they uniquely offer. Similarly, this new UT might not be the Unreal/UT that I remember, but it's got lots of cool things in it too. I still think things are being handled rather spottily when it comes to this story & character side of the game, but it's hard to believe that there will be any legitimate change in direction given that people have been saying the same things about basically every single character Epic has unveiled thus far, and yet no actual affect thus far.
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            Originally posted by Wail View Post
            For me personally, I've taken to viewing this UT as essentially the J.J. Abrams Stars Wars reboot of Unreal.
            Wait... wasn't UT3 exactly that?

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              UT3 was the Michael Bay reboot. A bunch of stuff that vaguely resembles the original universe, but with a terrible story that only serves as an excuse for having tons of explosions and giants running around the screen.

              This is the Christopher Nolan reboot, because they want to reinvent Unreal as "Real" now, no nipple suits or huge shoulder pads or cartoonishly proportioned characters. Everything must also have a "murdered out" version suitable for Christian Bale to use if they sell the film rights.
              Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 10-05-2015, 12:42 PM.

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                Well... to be honest every UT tried to reinvent the game pretty much. UT'99 was the original one. Then Digital Extremes made UT2003 which was totally different. They added all those Egyptians, Genmonkai and Nightmares and created a lot of high tech environments which went far beyond what was considered high tech in UT'99. UT2004 tried to get back a bit of UT'99 vibe by reintroducing Thunder Crash, Xan or industrial themed maps. UC2 for the other hand went the UT2003 path even further. Lastly UT:Gears of War came out which made a lot of lore mess in already chaotic and incosistent state of lore. Now we have three branches of UT - UT Classic (UT'99 and partially UT2k4) UT S-F (UT2k3 and UC2) and UT:GoW (UT3) and lorewise they are incompatible. Thats why finding the common denominator is impossible and everyone who wants to do it is making it in very subjective way. Resulting effect is highly dependant on the prefered brach of UT. And now Epic seems to want to create yet another incomapitble branch of UT as current concept of Necris doesn't seem to fit any of the existing branches. The closest match is UT2k4 but we have to remember that UT2k4 was result of mixing UT Classic with UT S-F which was somewhat incompatible with itself.

                And i'm trying to find common denominator while prioritizing UT Classic :P

                @papercoffee
                Midichlorians are textbook example telling why some mysteries should not be explained (especially when they are explained poorly). Epic already did that when they tried to explain respawning and deathmatch in UT3. In case of Necris and Nanoblack... it was explained long ago and then explored a lot. We can throw idea of Necris away but in the end nanite necrification would be the best explaination for their existance and loyalty to single corporation, so people will still accept it as canon i think. However you can solve one mystery and replace it with another (TV series does it a lot). I tried to do that with my concept of Necris where i moved mystery from lore mystery to psychological mystery (how Necrification affect minds of people). Current concept for the other hand solves one mystery and doesn't create new one to replace it.

                @HitscanGaem
                Well... it wasn't a plothole in times of UT'99. It became plothole when next UT's were created ignoring original timeline. You say that this should be ignored. As a fan of UT'99 (or UT Classic branch ) i think this should be a base and foundation for creating consistent and cleaned lore for UT4. If we have historical background story solid then creating the rest will be easier as we will have concrete background which everyone understands. Otherwise we will have the same issue UT2k3 had. Adding space egyptians to the universe where they cannot logically fit at all.
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                  Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
                  @HitscanGaem
                  Well... it wasn't a plothole in times of UT'99. It became plothole when next UT's were created ignoring original timeline. You say that this should be ignored. As a fan of UT'99 (or UT Classic branch ) i think this should be a base and foundation for creating consistent and cleaned lore for UT4. If we have historical background story solid then creating the rest will be easier as we will have concrete background which everyone understands. Otherwise we will have the same issue UT2k3 had. Adding space egyptians to the universe where they cannot logically fit at all.
                  It's a bit weird since the Human-Skaarj wars took place ~22XX time frame. Regardless, by the time 2291 rolls around, it's been decades since the war. Then add on 50 years ("50 years since the founding of DeathMatch"). These time frames make it hard to believe that there's anyone still around from the wars. Then again, there are multiple possible explanations: cryogenics, prolonged lifespans, rejuvenations, etc. It's a bit odd and hand-wavey because these kinds of things aren't established first, but it's not a huge step to accept them given the other things that do exist and are established.

                  For my own sanity I've started referring to the Unreal/UT99 world as the "Prime" universe, much like how comics have various different continuities where different takes on characters coexist in different universes, so-to-speak.
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                    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
                    @HitscanGaem
                    Well... it wasn't a plothole in times of UT'99. It became plothole when next UT's were created ignoring original timeline. You say that this should be ignored. As a fan of UT'99 (or UT Classic branch ) i think this should be a base and foundation for creating consistent and cleaned lore for UT4. If we have historical background story solid then creating the rest will be easier as we will have concrete background which everyone understands. Otherwise we will have the same issue UT2k3 had. Adding space egyptians to the universe where they cannot logically fit at all.
                    As Wail mentioned, it became a plothole 30 seconds into the intro of UT99 when they gave out a few dates.

                    Eventually I think the lore will get hashed out. Maybe there will be a evolved SP ladder, I know many see it as being worthless but bots in UT always kept me busy to try out new weapon mod and maps servers would not run. If I didn't care about the lore or the intensity of UT I would go play Quake live, which has kept me busy up until this point.

                    The Diplomatic Beret looks great on the Samael's Blood Moon armor, by the way. Perhaps we can discuss which custom clothing looks best on these two Necris, or what other color variations may look cool.

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                      I ignored dates and such. I played UT'99 when i was a kid who was glad that he knew names of colors in english :P. Later i didn't care about listenning to intro and just read level/bot descriptions :P. And from those + obvious military (rather than sporty) look of weapons which were modified designs of weapons used in war... i assumed that UT'99 takes place in Unreal equivalent of post WWII 1960/1970. But it seems that i have to do some revision of my vision .

                      ...but i think that in case of UT strict dates are less important than what could be figured out from backstories. But again... i'm fanboy of UT Prime so...
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                        The necris design that we use looks fine, has that face of a cold-hearted assassin and "no messing around" type of look.

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                          Originally posted by Wail View Post
                          Having a faction that represents (a) Techno-zombie corporate paramilitary and (b) Mysterious vampiric cults in the same breath is essentially removing any unifying theme / concept from the faction.
                          The fact they've been necrified, have pale skin and wear black?
                          Without a set fashion of military or religious, that's enough to unify them.

                          Originally posted by Wail View Post
                          It's like making Raw Steel members wear shirts. Now what's that team's identifying characteristic?
                          No, it's like having SOME of the raw steel members wear shirts, just because they feel like wearing shirts.
                          Showing their individuality while still being part of a team is not only great artistically, but gives the player more customization options.
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                          Make them all the same and you get the same problem of ut99/ut2003 characters, in that all the other faction members are just head swaps.

                          Originally posted by MacD11 View Post
                          if you could make Loque look like a blend between his UT99 counterpart
                          I think Loque is worthy/infamous enough to not look like the current necris template so far, and as a matter of fact should look as close to his UT99 counterpart as possible, kinda like a throwback Easter egg.
                          Yes it means more content would have to be made just for his model and look, but this is Logue we're talking about here. Mister 11/10 accuracy.
                          I don't know if the latest build still had that "grind to level up and unlock characters" system, but classic loque should be one of the last unlicks, prolly 2nd only to Malcom and Xan.

                          Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                          This is the Christopher Nolan reboot, because they want to reinvent Unreal as "Real" now, no nipple suits or huge shoulder pads or cartoonishly proportioned characters.
                          Well said!
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                            Originally posted by CognizanCe View Post
                            The fact they've been necrified, have pale skin and wear black?
                            Lets boil it down to the common things that are actually communicated through visual language: Pale skin, and wearing black. To me that seems way too broad to be a faction identity.

                            Originally posted by CognizanCe View Post
                            No, it's like having SOME of the raw steel members wear shirts, just because they feel like wearing shirts.
                            In the context of the analogy, it doesn't make sense for Raw Steel to wear shirts because their entire identity (relative to other factions) is being dudes who don't wear shirts. If you put one of those guys in a breastplate they'd be indistinguishable from Iron Guard or Thundercrash. That might be an absurdly narrow and silly direction for a faction, but that's what we get with the limited technology of the time.

                            The false equivalency that you're making is that wearing a shirt and becoming a corporate cyborg zombie are in the same degree of personalization. These are not really comparable, and basically results in your first statement describing the Necris: That is to say, not being able to say anything meaningful about them besides white skin and black clothing. That's boring.
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                              yeah, pale skin and wearing black could mean:

                              Metalhead
                              Emo
                              Zombie
                              Vampire
                              member of the Addams Family
                              Scandinavian

                              For me the thing about Raw Steel isn't necessarily that they don't wear shirts, but what that communicates to me in UT99 is that they're more bold or reckless - they want to show how badass they are. And perhaps in a sport where you die and respawn anyway, they're simply being practical. Less burden to carry around. If they get some shrapnel stuck in their pecs, so be it. It might not need to be expressly being shirtless, but certainly if a Raw Steel prototype were created that would be the first thing one should expect. They could do all kinds of things to make it not boring looking, like including straps, bullet belts, tattoos, etc but it should be the baseline.

                              Among the Necris, what we get as our first characters seem to be a bit on the extreme side, they've at least dialed it back with Visse now but imo they probably should have done that to begin with, because now the perception is still heavily there that they "need" to have these oil slicked looking faces, glowy implant eyes etc. For me, preferably Visse would have had a different armor style too.
                              Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 10-17-2015, 07:32 AM.

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                                Ok ...I can't run anything UE4 related right now, can someone show me how Visse look like?
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