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    As far as i know nowhere in UT'99 was said that they were aliens. In UT'99 pre GOTY there were no aliens and the only non-human participants were machines built by humans. Also they are part of Phayder Corporation and corporations participating in tournament are not alien corporations (there is no alien corporations as far as i know). If Necris are separate race then there are two ways they could be part of corporation forces. They could be conquered by humanity (but Necris seem more combat capable that humans and on the same tech level, so such war should be mentioned in universe history) or they could be outsourced, but then they are not "owned" by corporation, so they shouldn't be allowed to participate in tournament. And then if Necris are aliens then there is matter of their civilisation and culture, and from example of UT3 we know it doesn't work well . They could be also offspring of human race, but as far as i know humanity timeline don't go as far back as WH40k to allow creating offspring races in natural way. They could be artificially created offsprings, but then we could as well choose the idea of artificial resurection, because it gives us wider field of possible ideas like Necrified Juggernauts or even Skaarjs. In UC2 Necris were people resurrected using nanoblack (Lauren and Brock). Not mentioning that name Necris is simmiliar to world necro which is ancient greek world meaning "dead body" which oddly fits te fact that Necris people look kinda dead .

    This is my opinion, but i think Necris should go the way of "resurrecting chosen people" rather than "mass production of undead army" as it looks like now. For the case of aliens - i though that this interpretation of them was shut down by UC2 :P.
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      Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
      As far as i know nowhere in UT'99 was said that they were aliens. In UT'99 pre GOTY there were no aliens and the only non-human participants were machines built by humans.
      That they are aliens is stated in the original UT via character bios and also by developers (at the time).

      Member of an alien race known as the 'Necris', Kryss is possessed of a dark beauty. Beware, however, for it hides an even darker mind.
      I think it's fairly clear that they weren't meant to be augmented humans given the contextual clues. For example, the character bio for Rath from the Metal Guard team states:

      Rath is more machine than human. Rebuilt from spare parts and what was left of his brain after the Earthstar One incident, his mental instabilities make him an excellent warrior.
      Here's a character who is described as essentially a Frankenstein recreation of man and machine -- A 'zombie' if you will, essentially no different from how the Necris are being portrayed now.

      As you point out, the Tournament already has both humans and robots within it. Yet characters like Rath or Gorn of the Dark Phalanx are just considered human -- That they are technically cyborgs with varying degrees of their body replaced by machines doesn't mean they get called something other than human. Meanwhile we have this other race of characters who are called out using a unique racial name (Necris) and none of their backstories mention them being humans brought back from the dead at all. Quite a strange omission given how terse the backstories for these characters are.

      Again, that's just my reading but given the fairly limited information we have to work with, I feel it's rather overwhelming.

      In any case I feel like it's impossible to go back now since UC2 already poisoned the well by failing to properly present these characters, and no one since has been willing to do their due diligence to correct that mistake.
      Last edited by Wail; 10-31-2015, 01:20 AM.
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        Ok, you won the argument about Necris being aliens in UT'99. But you still haven't won the argument about which path should we choose for UT4 - alien or cyberpunk undead. I think both are reasonable. I guess we can just solve it like any other problem of this kind in UT - by not explaining it at all
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          Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
          Ok, you won the argument about Necris being aliens in UT'99. But you still haven't won the argument about which path should we choose for UT4 - alien or cyberpunk undead. I think both are reasonable. I guess we can just solve it like any other problem of this kind in UT - by not explaining it at all
          It's funny because I don't even want to 'win' that argument. I like the ambiguity around these characters. I think that's a great thing to have and should have been preserved.

          My ideal course of action would be...
          • Call the characters we have some name other than "Necris." Work required: Changing text strings.


          However, that seems unlikely. I mean, it's been a year of people rehashing the same points that these characters represent something other than what the fans loved about the Necris Prime characters. Since we appear to be dead set on turning them into something else, then my preferred course of action is... Embrace it. Preferred sequence of events:
          • Continue to develop the Necris as cybernetic supersoldiers of the Phayder Corporation. Go all out on making these guys really cool cyborgs.
          • Acknowledge the fact that the term 'Necris' no longer refers to Necris as we once knew them.
          • Also acknowledge that the Necris Prime characters had unique place among the UT factions, with distinct appearance & attributes that aren't being represented properly by the Necris anymore.
          • Invent a new faction identity which does embody these ideas, visual motifs, etc.


          I have been brainstorming ideas on this front already, the problem is really one of communication & getting other people on board. Convincing UT fans to start referring to the color "Green" as "Emerald" is going to be like herding cats. In order to have any hope at all you need some catnip.
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            Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
            But you still haven't won the argument about which path should we choose for UT4 - alien or cyberpunk undead.
            There is no winning this argument.

            Epic wants cyberpunk undead and there's no having otherwise.
            There's probably a Necris Skaarj incoming, by the way.

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              Yeah let's call them Phayder Necris or simply Phayder to differentiate them, as Wail suggested.

              Originally posted by Wail
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                Anything with the word Phayder is bad since it's tied into the whole Necris reinvention.
                When I say inventing something else, I mean completely new terminology that hasn't been damaged by bad past decisions. This is also important to prevent confusion. If you have two factions with superficial similarities (e.g. pale, wear black) they'd need to be clearly differentiated.
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                  Ok, I misunderstood you then (my fault for skimming). I thought you meant making it clear that these "Necris" are somehow different from the original ones, even if we can still call them that overall.

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                    Phayder was mentioned in the original bios more often than Alien was.
                    There's one mention of them being alien, which is just as easily explained as a mistake on the NEG's part by not understanding what nanoblack was. They wouldn't be "Human" by most medical definitions, even now. If we're talking nanomachine revived humans, their physiology would likely be quite different. No hemoglobin, no blood, possibly no lymph etc. We don't know if they need to eat or not. Depending on how long the bulk of the population on Phyader worlds was separated from the NEG areas, they could have significant genetic differences also. They could appear to be human shaped aliens on initial inspection.

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                      Originally posted by Vailias View Post
                      Phayder was mentioned in the original bios more often than Alien was.
                      There's one mention of them being alien, which is just as easily explained as a mistake on the NEG's part by not understanding what nanoblack was. They wouldn't be "Human" by most medical definitions, even now. If we're talking nanomachine revived humans, their physiology would likely be quite different. No hemoglobin, no blood, possibly no lymph etc. We don't know if they need to eat or not. Depending on how long the bulk of the population on Phyader worlds was separated from the NEG areas, they could have significant genetic differences also. They could appear to be human shaped aliens on initial inspection.
                      In UT99 there is no mention of Phayder being a corporation. The idea that Phayder was a corporation was only introduced with UC2. Reading the 99 material, the impression seems to be more like the idea of an underworld gang or coven, maybe having a loose organization but nothing as formal as actually being incorporated. The image of a group that has salaried people going in to their cubicles every day, or has humans in it at all, does not come from the text.

                      You do mention one thing that I personally enjoy a lot: Unreliable information. It's wonderful when it's done intentionally, but that's clearly not the intent of how information is presented to us in the game, so it's not very convincing to try and use that to bolster a semantics argument. I do pretty strongly advocate not using omniscient narration for this UT, but the level of subtlety and nuance I'd like might be expecting too much on the writing front and the reading front.

                      (Fun trivia: Unreal/UT99 Necris and Skaarj also bleed red. Later UT2k4 changed Skaarj blood to green, although Necris still bleed red.)
                      Last edited by Wail; 11-02-2015, 06:38 AM.
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                        What a mess :P
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                          Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
                          Epic wants cyberpunk undead
                          You mean Zombie Cyborgs, right?
                          UT4 necris are not cyberpunk. There is that female model with the emo haircut, which is not cyberpunk, but some sort of cyber-emo. Remember that "emo" is not "punk". Not even remotely.

                          Cyberpunk aesthetic style is based on the 80's punk and sci-fi style. It is definitely not based on the late 2000's emo style. As an example, the Hellions in UT2k4 are cyberpunk. 1990's Total Recall movie is also cyberpunk. But a ripoff of a Star Trek Borg with tactical pants and an Emo hairstyle is definitely not cyberpunk. It is just cyborg, or more exactly cyber-zombie.

                          Anyway, whatever they are, you must note that the original Necris are not cyberpunk. In fact, they are neither cyber nor punk. They are futuristic-goth. Which again, has nothing to do with cyber, punk, emo or zombie.
                          If there is a faction which has clear similarities with the UT4 necris, that one is UT2k4's Black Legion/Nightmare. HenrikRyosa recently proved the high amount of similarities between them in this thread: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...Mr-Crow-Necris

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                            Originally posted by hi-ban View Post
                            If there is a faction which has clear similarities with the UT4 necris, that one is UT2k4's Black Legion/Nightmare. HenrikRyosa recently proved the high amount of similarities between them in this thread: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...Mr-Crow-Necris
                            And I proved that this combination has similarities with Baron Samedi from Live and Let Die.
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                              @hi-ban
                              Was it you with whom i had argument about what cyberpunk really is? "Punk" in "Cyberpunk" doesn't mean that people wear mohawks. Just like it is in case of Steampunk

                              And cyberpunk undead doesn't necessarily mean zombi cyborgs. It seams that this is current direction, but this is not the only option - distopian future cyber vampires is another one

                              And current Necris concept could be redesigned into Hellions - that is true.
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                                Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
                                @hi-ban
                                Was it you with whom i had argument about what cyberpunk really is? "Punk" in "Cyberpunk" doesn't mean that people wear mohawks. Just like it is in case of Steampunk

                                And cyberpunk undead doesn't necessarily mean zombi cyborgs. It seams that this is current direction, but this is not the only option - distopian future cyber vampires is another one

                                And current Necris concept could be redesigned into Hellions - that is true.
                                What i mean is... Why suddenly the Necris must be Cyberpunk, when they have never been so?
                                People is like: Oh, it's cyberpunk, therefore it's ok for the Necris because the necris are sci-fi, and cyberpunk is sci-fi. But the fact is that the Necris have never been anything "cyber". They are futuristic goth. Maybe a bit vampiric, even "futuristic-medieval"... but not "cyber", and even less "punk".

                                Anyway, we are not discussing about the argumental meaning of cyberpunk (dystopian future, megacorporations, chaos, etc...), but about the cyberpunk visual style, which was mainly introduced in movies in the 80's.

                                I don't remember arguing about mohawks. Not recently, at least. Anyway, i think you will agree with me in that "Emo" haircuts don't really fit into cyberpunk aesthetics. (With the only exception being Zorg from the 5th element, but by that time (1997) it wasn't even associated with the Emo subculture because the "emo haircut" didn't exist as such until the late 2000's. Anyway, the Zorg haircut was done to make Zorg look more comical/ridiculous, or more probably to make him look like Hitler)
                                Last edited by hi-ban; 11-02-2015, 02:57 PM.

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