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  • replied
    I think the same thing...

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  • replied
    I don't like the long nales it looks like she's a model not a fighter(

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    Well... that was the exact approach of Epic. They just throw ideas that are cool at the time of their creation and overriding their previous ideas which are now uncool. Necris are the best example of this. Classic Necris were cool in late 90s, but were overriden in mid 200X by UC concept, which then was overriden in late 200X by UT3. And current oficial Necris concept is the same exact approach. The concept seems now cooler than previous one, so it overrdes it. This is chaos created by quite poor long term worldbuilding skills of Epic. We are trying to find common denominator for UT'99, UC2 and UT3, meanwhile Epic throws another radically different idea for this faction.

    See, no one objects to the idea of introducing new concepts. The part that's controversial is when you take names that refer to existing concepts and slap them on new things. People would rightfully be offended if they saw Malcolm depicted in this game as a white dude. We could even come up with some post-hoc rationalizations about dermal reconstruction, etc, much like certain people in this thread are trying to do for why the Necris. We could do that, but it'd be quite bad and upsetting to a lot of people. Without a clear and demonstrable payoff, it just doesn't make sense to do so. Even bad fanfiction is at least able to keep the gross characteristics of most characters the same. Right now we aren't even at that lowest of standards.

    At this point I would be totally willing to write every letter in and out of the game to have a credible setting that isn't a complete write-off. We are in a state where plausible explanations for the cluster-f can still be created, but unfortunately that potential is likely to be undermined the more development we see. Really a shame and quite confusing, honestly.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by papercoffee View Post
    Do we argue for the arguments sake?
    What has all this discussion about "what is punk or no-punk or what is cyber or no-cyber" to do with the Necris???
    I'm really puzzled...


    "Oh, someone is wrong on the Internetz ...I must write something."

    For my part its to try and get a better handle on what some vocal members of the community actually don't like about the current Necris designs and if there is something that can be done to curve the current design arc in an truly better overall direction, or if we're just dealing with rabid nostalgia.

    The discussion got a little off the rails, as they tend to do, but determining what the word cyberpunk implies in a visual design sense is important here, if nothing else than to figure out what people are actually arguing about. The imagery associated with hi-ban's idea of cyberpunk seem to be those of bladerunner and the late 80's punk scene. Obviously none of the Necris designs ever fit with that vision of cyberpunk.
    My understanding of cyberpunk is much broader, and other's may start with the visual aesthetics of The Matrix, Hackers, and other 90's media. Why is this important? Because we're trying to discuss a visual aesthetic in words, and without actually getting to what those words mean we're not likely to get to an actionable critique.

    Not the best medium either, but not everyone here is a capable enough artist to draw what's in their head.

    So far what I can put together is the following. (and tell me if I've understood y'all right)
    The tubing, highly exposed implants, and nanoblack patches aren't reading well.

    The tubing and implants are reminding people of the borg drones and the nanoblack on the head reminds them of gore and rotten flesh, which is added to by the palor.
    Those things combine to further this idea that they are looking at a mindless zombie character, which is at odds with what they know about the Necris from prior games.

    So that leads to an actionable critique.
    Can we tone down the implants and doing something more interesting with the visible nanoblack so it doesn't look like gore?

    Also while there certainly is a good bit of nostalgia in the "Necris we once knew" sentiment, there's also some visual pieces that can be picked up from that. UT99 has favor, the UT2k4 bonus Necris also are well liked. UT3's were despised, and UC2's are mixed, seemingly more for the story and abilities than for the visual design.

    So what we have in common is a penchant for dark clothing. An overall aesthetic that draws on goth/industrial/ black metal clothing tropes.

    I think that the urban infiltrator or agent look was more expected than security/combat forces.

    If so, its largely resolvable via torso and leg cosmetics, while maintaining the main line combat troop option as a base model.

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  • replied
    Do we argue for the arguments sake?
    What has all this discussion about "what is punk or no-punk or what is cyber or no-cyber" to do with the Necris???
    I'm really puzzled...


    "Oh, someone is wrong on the Internetz ...I must write something."

    Last edited by papercoffee; 11-03-2015, 06:58 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    Firstly i agree with Vailias on most of the issues.


    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    We are trying to find common denominator for UT'99, UC2 and UT3, meanwhile Epic throws another radically different idea for this faction.
    What is radical about this? Its updated outfits and tubing.

    I just want to add that the members of counter cultural movement doesn't have to look super high-tech. The world they are anchored to should. Necris doesn't need obvious cybernetic augments in my opinion.
    Right. A Cyberpunk character can be just as much about rejecting the ubiquity of life altering technology as embracing it. Cyberpunk is a setting first and foremost, but we're also talking about visual communication. I'm not a fan of the tubing in the current designs, but I also respect what Epic's trying to do with the new gen Necris. Its getting further into the visual communication of technologically enhanced soldiery rather than them being "space goths" like they visually appeared in UT99.

    I agree that current Necris conecpt is lorewise closer to Nightmare than to Necris :P. And since i find most of Nightmare desings (Like Brutalis, Lilith or Domina) not fitting the current artistic direction... i think current Necris concept could be made into Nightmares kinda.
    Originally posted by hi-ban View Post
    I don't think "Necris" fits with the current zombie-cyborg characters. The Necris are supposed to keep their body well regenerated and young, thanks to the nanoblack which flows through their veins. But the current zombie-cyborg characters have their skin rotten and mutated, and are full of cybernetic enhancements. If i had to identify them with a faction, it would surely be the Nightmare, not the Necris.
    Not zombies! oi.. Revived from death, some yes, but mindless shamblers or controlled puppets no. Yes the flesh is pale and dark. Remember the warmth and "youthfulness" you're used to seeing in people is because we have red blood and our skin is highly translucent. If you replace the red hemoglobin rich blood in people with a substance that is effectively black, you're going to get a very dead look. Deader looking than usually dead. UT3's textures really missed the mark on this.
    Originally posted by Entropy
    Source post from the guy who wrote them up in the first place.
    The Necris are NOT undead, they are NOT goth, and they are NOT mindless zombies. They are not the same as the Nightmare team from 2k3/4.
    They ARE youthful and strong. Everyone looks about in their fighting prime from 20-40. They just have pale skin and black blood. Should also be interesting when the melanistic Necris characters get made.

    As to why this generation of Necris operatives would have such visible augments, perhaps its tied into something else Jim said:

    While I can't say with any certainty yet, I would predict that the new Necris will not be members of the Cult of the Prophet, but will be attached to the Phayder Corporation as their next generation of super soldier.
    So where would you go as a next generation improvement to a nearly immortal highly improved human? Perhaps the researchers at Phayder want to use some of the other capabilities of nanoblack we've seen. Like shielding as the dermal armor that's been stated as to what the black warpaint is. (nanoblack acting as armor).
    There's a limit to the volume of fluid a human body can contain. Perhaps the 8 pints or so that would be blood replacement is what's needed to keep the body in good repair and with the increased functionality. So you'd need an excess so that some can be lost or damaged without lowering combat capability. So you integrate piping and such as a nanoblack reservoir.

    That said, I'd still like it to be more subtle addition. I would dig seeing the nanoblack actually animated in the material. (I may need to whip up a test for this)

    Re Necromunda and WH40k: The grand setting itself isn't cyberpunk, its more sci-fantasy space opera, but there is room for cyberpunk stories within the Warhammer 40k universe. Frankly if you'd go with postcyberpunk then its still cyberpunk, as much as post rock is still in the rock section of the music store.

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  • replied
    Excuse me if i trust the Wikipedia more than you.

    Back to the topic... UT4, zombie cyborgs pretending to be Necris...

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  • replied
    It could be named postcyberpunk but not cyberpunk. Necromunda is Warhammer40k and Warhammer40k is not cyberpunk. Hive cities are kinda cities built on top of over 10 millenia year old maybecyberpunk cities.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    And about Necromunda - it's not cyberpunk. It is closer to Mad Max to be honest as technology is far less advanced than it was before and people just doesn't understand it anymore.
    Necromunda is Cyberpunk. It is even listed in the "Cyberpunk" entry on the Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk#Games

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  • replied
    Firstly i agree with Vailias on most of the issues.


    Originally posted by Wail View Post
    I think this is really the crux of the issue. I don't think that we should try to rewrite something that already exists. Trying to paper over the past is bad writing practice, and generally bad for the game because it fragments the community even more.
    Well... that was the exact approach of Epic. They just throw ideas that are cool at the time of their creation and overriding their previous ideas which are now uncool. Necris are the best example of this. Classic Necris were cool in late 90s, but were overriden in mid 200X by UC concept, which then was overriden in late 200X by UT3. And current oficial Necris concept is the same exact approach. The concept seems now cooler than previous one, so it overrdes it. This is chaos created by quite poor long term worldbuilding skills of Epic. We are trying to find common denominator for UT'99, UC2 and UT3, meanwhile Epic throws another radically different idea for this faction.

    Originally posted by Wail View Post
    The current approach, which is basically revisionism, removes depth. The alternative, which basically boils down to better writing for this game (embracing things like epistemiological uncertainty, etc) creates depth.
    I will answer with quote from TVTropes wikia.
    Enjoyment comes from a balance of Recognition and Surprise — we enjoy things that we can relate to and have seen before, but we also like to be surprised. Total recognition is cliché; total surprise is alienating.
    I think some elements of world and faction design should be solid and some should be ambigous. Too many possibilites and lack of order make people lost. The problem is to decide what should be explained and what should remain mysterious - different people have different ideas and thats why we have problems with finding solution which would satisfy everybody.

    Originally posted by Vailias View Post
    Strictly speaking, yes. Though to visually distinguish it as cyberpunk I'd ensure the high technological influence to be obvious. Cybernetic augments, embedded technology, etc. Things that show the overall advanced tech level of the society (the cyber part) but also preserve the rough edged dystopian feel that necessitates the counter-cultural movement (the punk) part.
    I just want to add that the members of counter cultural movement doesn't have to look super high-tech. The world they are anchored to should. Necris doesn't need obvious cybernetic augments in my opinion.

    Edit:
    I agree that current Necris conecpt is lorewise closer to Nightmare than to Necris :P. And since i find most of Nightmare desings (Like Brutalis, Lilith or Domina) not fitting the current artistic direction... i think current Necris concept could be made into Nightmares kinda. But in the end i think that Nightmare faction should be thrown away completely taking maybe tophat guys and Abaddon and redesigning them to fit other factions.

    And about Necromunda - it's not cyberpunk. It is closer to Mad Max to be honest as technology is far less advanced than it was before and people just doesn't understand it anymore.
    Last edited by Fartuess; 11-03-2015, 11:11 AM.

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  • replied
    From Liandri Archives:

    The Nightmare is the collective name for a number of artificial species created through genetic mutation and cybernetic enhancements, designed to be used as biological weapons.

    Some say the Nightmare are the Liandri Mining Corporation's failed attempt at reproducing the Necris process, but although the Liandri were involved in such experiments, it is unknown if the Nightmare are actually a result of these experiments.
    This fits 100% with the current UT4 zombie-cyborg characters.

    Now let's see what Liandri Archives says about the Necris:

    Some members of the group called the Necris have undergone the Necris process, also known as Necrification, which replaced their blood with nanoblack (a black fluid of unknown origin containing some form of nano technology). The nanoblack offered an opportunity for a form of immortality as the nanoblack could maintain and quickly repair deteriorating tissue. Because of this, it is assumed that those who have gone through this process no longer age. It is assumed that ongoing injections of nanoblack are required to keep the subject alive.
    I don't think "Necris" fits with the current zombie-cyborg characters. The Necris are supposed to keep their body well regenerated and young, thanks to the nanoblack which flows through their veins. But the current zombie-cyborg characters have their skin rotten and mutated, and are full of cybernetic enhancements. If i had to identify them with a faction, it would surely be the Nightmare, not the Necris.

    Originally posted by HitscanGaem View Post
    Not really. There influences clearly seem to come from Mad Max / generic post Apocalypse desert bandits, especially since the map that featured them was a giant desert chase sequence. Not inner-city dystopia dwellers, but people on the outside living in the ragtag wastelands and empty space. They fit in nicely as pirate raiders and general "scum" that would want to participate in the arena.

    The commonality between the two is the dystopia and low life, but the differences are the level of technology available.
    I thought the Hellions were influenced by the punks from the tabletop game Necromunda:
    Last edited by hi-ban; 11-03-2015, 10:12 AM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by hi-ban

    the Hellions in UT2k4 are cyberpunk
    Not really. There influences clearly seem to come from Mad Max / generic post Apocalypse desert bandits, especially since the map that featured them was a giant desert chase sequence. Not inner-city dystopia dwellers, but people on the outside living in the ragtag wastelands and empty space. They fit in nicely as pirate raiders and general "scum" that would want to participate in the arena.

    The commonality between the two is the dystopia and low life, but the differences are the level of technology available.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    @Vailias
    Speaking of simmiliarity between video game and porn movies...
    *Chuckle* The friction between an interactive medium and a passive one. Depends why one plays a game I suppose.

    Originally posted by hi-ban View Post
    So then, according to your view... anything can be cyberpunk?
    Strictly speaking, yes. Though to visually distinguish it as cyberpunk I'd ensure the high technological influence to be obvious. Cybernetic augments, embedded technology, etc. Things that show the overall advanced tech level of the society (the cyber part) but also preserve the rough edged dystopian feel that necessitates the counter-cultural movement (the punk) part.

    There are some visual tropes that we're more or less familiar with, but the trope isn't the aesthetic.

    Nanomachine augmented, reanimated special operatives who engage in assassination and covert military actions against the official government and established order is quite essentially cyberpunk, regardless of what hairstyle said operatives happen to have.

    Originally posted by Wail View Post
    I think this is really the crux of the issue. I don't think that we should try to rewrite something that already exists. Trying to paper over the past is bad writing practice, and generally bad for the game because it fragments the community even more.

    What we can do is write things intelligently going forward for this game. As you point out, we can easily just add two of the most powerful characters known to man to our writing for this game... Those two characters being " & " (open quote and close quote).

    The current approach, which is basically revisionism, removes depth. The alternative, which basically boils down to better writing for this game (embracing things like epistemiological uncertainty, etc) creates depth.
    Well good. But papering over is what I thought you wanted? Or at least throwing stuff out like from UC2, etc. It seems you dislike the idea Phayder being a Corporation and being the source the Necris.


    Continue to develop the Necris as cybernetic supersoldiers of the Phayder Corporation. Go all out on making these guys really cool cyborgs.
    Acknowledge the fact that the term 'Necris' no longer refers to Necris as we once knew them.
    Also acknowledge that the Necris Prime characters had unique place among the UT factions, with distinct appearance & attributes that aren't being represented properly by the Necris anymore.
    Invent a new faction identity which does embody these ideas, visual motifs, etc.
    I don't see the conflict you seem to see, especially since what we have at the moment in game are the base paperdoll models. I don't care for the overly visible tubing myself, but give them some different clothing and they'd fit right in with the classic Necris.

    Also, it seems like the scope of these corporations is lost on people a bit. Its as if the entire population has to be just one way. There's no reason that some of the team members yet to be seen cannot have a cultish back story, or that a whole other team of more cult minded Necris, of similar outlook to Akasha, could show up.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Vailias View Post
    True, and in some of the Bios Phayder is used like a title or profession, and in others its used more organizationally.

    We can obviously disagree on this, but if you assume that the flavor text is written by people working for Liandri to give competitor background, then it would seem that they really don't know much about what "Phayder" is, other than its linked to the Necris and their activities either as an organization, a cult, or a rank.
    I think this is really the crux of the issue. I don't think that we should try to rewrite something that already exists. Trying to paper over the past is bad writing practice, and generally bad for the game because it fragments the community even more.

    What we can do is write things intelligently going forward for this game. As you point out, we can easily just add two of the most powerful characters known to man to our writing for this game... Those two characters being " & " (open quote and close quote).

    The current approach, which is basically revisionism, removes depth. The alternative, which basically boils down to better writing for this game (embracing things like epistemiological uncertainty, etc) creates depth.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    @Vailias
    Speaking of simmiliarity between video game and porn movies...

    Originally posted by David Cage in Farenheit Postmortem
    One of the key points in Indigo Prophecy was the idea of getting interactivity and narration to work together. Most games oppose these two concepts or rather, they develop them in turn: a cut scene to advance the narration, then an action scene, then another cut scene for the narration. The structure of this narrative process is very close to that of porn movies.

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