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  • replied
    Originally posted by Vailias View Post
    People can look anything from street urchin to neo victorian and still be cyberpunk.
    So then, according to your view... anything can be cyberpunk?

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Wail View Post
    In UT99 there is no mention of Phayder being a corporation. The idea that Phayder was a corporation was only introduced with UC2. Reading the 99 material, the impression seems to be more like the idea of an underworld gang or coven, maybe having a loose organization but nothing as formal as actually being incorporated. The image of a group that has salaried people going in to their cubicles every day, or has humans in it at all, does not come from the text.
    True, and in some of the Bios Phayder is used like a title or profession, and in others its used more organizationally.

    We can obviously disagree on this, but if you assume that the flavor text is written by people working for Liandri to give competitor background, then it would seem that they really don't know much about what "Phayder" is, other than its linked to the Necris and their activities either as an organization, a cult, or a rank.

    They're a shadow organization. They appear like a gang, or a cult, or a coven from one point of view. They can also be a planetary spanning corporate nation (as we've seen exist in this game universe) that has purposefully concealed their presence by puppet corporations in the greater universal economy, and silencing those who would shed light on their true nature.. you know by sending in terrorist cells and assassins. All we SEE are the captured operatives.

    Its like trying to discern the nature of the USA from a few navy seals and a deep cover CIA agent.

    Anyway the real reason for the ambiguity is likely more Carmackian:
    Originally posted by John Carmack in Masters of Doom
    Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important.
    This is 1997-99 where you have about 6 guys in a room working night and day. They threw together some designs they thought were cool and wrote some copy to go with them in some loose fashion to give a bit of universe flavor and reason for players to pick one character or another. It wasn't grand universe building. Remember this thing started as a multiplayer botpack that morphed into an arena shooter and went head to head with Quake 3 (Speaking of loose story.)

    (abridged) Unreliable information.
    The level of subtlety and nuance I'd like might be expecting too much on the writing front and the reading front.
    Yes it likely is.

    The majority of the universe development and consistency is weak. Its never been a focus because this is a game series that needs just enough flavor text to make the arenas seem interesting and that there is some reason for all the consensual murder.

    So we're left to sort the whole thing out if we actually want a consistent narrative and universe.

    Personally, I prefer the "everything so far presented is true at the time of that game" angle and trying to stitch it all together. I don't think many things need to be thrown out, as each game has been interesting in its own right, and adds different views of the universe

    I don't see the description of being cultish alien assassins as being incompatible with technologically reanimated soldiers for a shadowy corporate nation. Really, the scope of corporate operations in this universe is much closer to that of nation states than it is of business entities, and that allows for a lot more to happen and be behind the scenes than is readily presented in the context of the tournament.

    Even UT3's impromptu war could amount to the actions of a "local office". The clip of Malcolm's negotiations toward the end suggests its viewed as much.


    (Fun trivia: Unreal/UT99 Necris and Skaarj also bleed red. Later UT2k4 changed Skaarj blood to green, although Necris still bleed red.)
    Yeah. Technical oversights and constraints more than universe development.


    Originally posted by hi-ban View Post
    What i mean is... Why suddenly the Necris must be Cyberpunk, when they have never been so?
    Yes they have a cyberpunk aesthetic and have had so. UT3 deviated the most. The 80's cyberpunk and goth aesthetics have significant room for overlap. Your definitions are incredibly narrow. See Syndicate Wars and Shadowrun for visual reference, and the descriptive language in every Gibson and Stephenson book. People can look anything from street urchin to neo victorian and still be cyberpunk.
    I get it that your specific definition of "what is cyberpunk" may not allow for that. I am curious, according to your view: Motoko Kusanagi (Ghost in the Shell), cyberpunk or not?

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  • replied
    Well... i though more about this kind of cyberpunk vampire:



    Ofcourse with added gothic/medieval/ocultic elements to resemble classic Necris more.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    @hi-ban
    Was it you with whom i had argument about what cyberpunk really is? "Punk" in "Cyberpunk" doesn't mean that people wear mohawks. Just like it is in case of Steampunk

    And cyberpunk undead doesn't necessarily mean zombi cyborgs. It seams that this is current direction, but this is not the only option - distopian future cyber vampires is another one

    And current Necris concept could be redesigned into Hellions - that is true.
    What i mean is... Why suddenly the Necris must be Cyberpunk, when they have never been so?
    People is like: Oh, it's cyberpunk, therefore it's ok for the Necris because the necris are sci-fi, and cyberpunk is sci-fi. But the fact is that the Necris have never been anything "cyber". They are futuristic goth. Maybe a bit vampiric, even "futuristic-medieval"... but not "cyber", and even less "punk".

    Anyway, we are not discussing about the argumental meaning of cyberpunk (dystopian future, megacorporations, chaos, etc...), but about the cyberpunk visual style, which was mainly introduced in movies in the 80's.

    I don't remember arguing about mohawks. Not recently, at least. Anyway, i think you will agree with me in that "Emo" haircuts don't really fit into cyberpunk aesthetics. (With the only exception being Zorg from the 5th element, but by that time (1997) it wasn't even associated with the Emo subculture because the "emo haircut" didn't exist as such until the late 2000's. Anyway, the Zorg haircut was done to make Zorg look more comical/ridiculous, or more probably to make him look like Hitler)
    Last edited by hi-ban; 11-02-2015, 02:57 PM.

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  • replied
    @hi-ban
    Was it you with whom i had argument about what cyberpunk really is? "Punk" in "Cyberpunk" doesn't mean that people wear mohawks. Just like it is in case of Steampunk

    And cyberpunk undead doesn't necessarily mean zombi cyborgs. It seams that this is current direction, but this is not the only option - distopian future cyber vampires is another one

    And current Necris concept could be redesigned into Hellions - that is true.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Originally posted by hi-ban View Post
    If there is a faction which has clear similarities with the UT4 necris, that one is UT2k4's Black Legion/Nightmare. HenrikRyosa recently proved the high amount of similarities between them in this thread: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...Mr-Crow-Necris
    And I proved that this combination has similarities with Baron Samedi from Live and Let Die.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
    Epic wants cyberpunk undead
    You mean Zombie Cyborgs, right?
    UT4 necris are not cyberpunk. There is that female model with the emo haircut, which is not cyberpunk, but some sort of cyber-emo. Remember that "emo" is not "punk". Not even remotely.

    Cyberpunk aesthetic style is based on the 80's punk and sci-fi style. It is definitely not based on the late 2000's emo style. As an example, the Hellions in UT2k4 are cyberpunk. 1990's Total Recall movie is also cyberpunk. But a ripoff of a Star Trek Borg with tactical pants and an Emo hairstyle is definitely not cyberpunk. It is just cyborg, or more exactly cyber-zombie.

    Anyway, whatever they are, you must note that the original Necris are not cyberpunk. In fact, they are neither cyber nor punk. They are futuristic-goth. Which again, has nothing to do with cyber, punk, emo or zombie.
    If there is a faction which has clear similarities with the UT4 necris, that one is UT2k4's Black Legion/Nightmare. HenrikRyosa recently proved the high amount of similarities between them in this thread: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...Mr-Crow-Necris

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  • replied
    What a mess :P

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Vailias View Post
    Phayder was mentioned in the original bios more often than Alien was.
    There's one mention of them being alien, which is just as easily explained as a mistake on the NEG's part by not understanding what nanoblack was. They wouldn't be "Human" by most medical definitions, even now. If we're talking nanomachine revived humans, their physiology would likely be quite different. No hemoglobin, no blood, possibly no lymph etc. We don't know if they need to eat or not. Depending on how long the bulk of the population on Phyader worlds was separated from the NEG areas, they could have significant genetic differences also. They could appear to be human shaped aliens on initial inspection.
    In UT99 there is no mention of Phayder being a corporation. The idea that Phayder was a corporation was only introduced with UC2. Reading the 99 material, the impression seems to be more like the idea of an underworld gang or coven, maybe having a loose organization but nothing as formal as actually being incorporated. The image of a group that has salaried people going in to their cubicles every day, or has humans in it at all, does not come from the text.

    You do mention one thing that I personally enjoy a lot: Unreliable information. It's wonderful when it's done intentionally, but that's clearly not the intent of how information is presented to us in the game, so it's not very convincing to try and use that to bolster a semantics argument. I do pretty strongly advocate not using omniscient narration for this UT, but the level of subtlety and nuance I'd like might be expecting too much on the writing front and the reading front.

    (Fun trivia: Unreal/UT99 Necris and Skaarj also bleed red. Later UT2k4 changed Skaarj blood to green, although Necris still bleed red.)
    Last edited by Wail; 11-02-2015, 06:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Phayder was mentioned in the original bios more often than Alien was.
    There's one mention of them being alien, which is just as easily explained as a mistake on the NEG's part by not understanding what nanoblack was. They wouldn't be "Human" by most medical definitions, even now. If we're talking nanomachine revived humans, their physiology would likely be quite different. No hemoglobin, no blood, possibly no lymph etc. We don't know if they need to eat or not. Depending on how long the bulk of the population on Phyader worlds was separated from the NEG areas, they could have significant genetic differences also. They could appear to be human shaped aliens on initial inspection.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Ok, I misunderstood you then (my fault for skimming). I thought you meant making it clear that these "Necris" are somehow different from the original ones, even if we can still call them that overall.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Anything with the word Phayder is bad since it's tied into the whole Necris reinvention.
    When I say inventing something else, I mean completely new terminology that hasn't been damaged by bad past decisions. This is also important to prevent confusion. If you have two factions with superficial similarities (e.g. pale, wear black) they'd need to be clearly differentiated.

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  • replied
    Yeah let's call them Phayder Necris or simply Phayder to differentiate them, as Wail suggested.

    Originally posted by Wail
    herding cats
    like this?

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    But you still haven't won the argument about which path should we choose for UT4 - alien or cyberpunk undead.
    There is no winning this argument.

    Epic wants cyberpunk undead and there's no having otherwise.
    There's probably a Necris Skaarj incoming, by the way.

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    Ok, you won the argument about Necris being aliens in UT'99. But you still haven't won the argument about which path should we choose for UT4 - alien or cyberpunk undead. I think both are reasonable. I guess we can just solve it like any other problem of this kind in UT - by not explaining it at all
    It's funny because I don't even want to 'win' that argument. I like the ambiguity around these characters. I think that's a great thing to have and should have been preserved.

    My ideal course of action would be...
    • Call the characters we have some name other than "Necris." Work required: Changing text strings.


    However, that seems unlikely. I mean, it's been a year of people rehashing the same points that these characters represent something other than what the fans loved about the Necris Prime characters. Since we appear to be dead set on turning them into something else, then my preferred course of action is... Embrace it. Preferred sequence of events:
    • Continue to develop the Necris as cybernetic supersoldiers of the Phayder Corporation. Go all out on making these guys really cool cyborgs.
    • Acknowledge the fact that the term 'Necris' no longer refers to Necris as we once knew them.
    • Also acknowledge that the Necris Prime characters had unique place among the UT factions, with distinct appearance & attributes that aren't being represented properly by the Necris anymore.
    • Invent a new faction identity which does embody these ideas, visual motifs, etc.


    I have been brainstorming ideas on this front already, the problem is really one of communication & getting other people on board. Convincing UT fans to start referring to the color "Green" as "Emerald" is going to be like herding cats. In order to have any hope at all you need some catnip.

    Leave a comment:

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