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Egyptian, Nubian Skins and new Unreal Tournament movement 2014

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    #16
    I do not want Egyptians in the next UT game and know at least one other person I just talked to who said they absolutely hate it as well.

    Egyptians in the the 2kx games came out of nowhere and felt like one of the biggest things taking away from the Unreal universe's originality. I mean what is this, Stargate? Egyptians are also done to death in Hollywood, pop videos and everything so there's that.

    UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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      #17
      i liked the Egyptian theme but it was far too traditional. the Protoss from Starcraft have the egyptian look but modern styled with sleek designs. UT's models by comparison felt like pieces of monuments tacked unto the characters as armor. the outdated look clashed with the modern themes and ended up looking kitsch. the character themes/lore are always made-up so i don't see why people insist on that as an argument. the designs came before the backstory for almost everything.

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        #18
        Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
        I do not want Egyptians in the next UT game and know at least one other person I just talked to who said they absolutely hate it as well.

        Egyptians in the the 2kx games came out of nowhere and felt like one of the biggest things taking away from the Unreal universe's originality. I mean what is this, Stargate? Egyptians are also done to death in Hollywood, pop videos and everything so there's that.
        Still better than making only an UT99-2 in character design with today's technology.

        I agree with homu though, if they bring back the Egyptian style it should be a bit more subtle and more tech oriented instead of basing the design too much on the traditional ancient Egyptian art style. Homu's right, it stood out from the other assets as being different and while being different is actually a really good thing in the diverse style of UT, it was a bit too much. Did you notice the out of place gothic and medieval style levels in UT as being very different? No, because it was a bit subtle.
        Last edited by Zaxx; 05-12-2014, 08:06 PM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Zaxx View Post
          Still better than making only an UT99-2 in character design with today's technology.
          Technology doesn't have much to do with good clean visible design. Which is what UT99 was. I haven't asked for exact replicas, or said no to variety. I just said I don't like Egyptians as a faction/race in a UT game. That's my opinion.

          UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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            #20
            Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
            Technology doesn't have much to do with good clean visible design. Which is what UT99 was. I haven't asked for exact replicas, or said no to variety. I just said I don't like Egyptians as a faction/race in a UT game. That's my opinion.
            Well if I look at the concept art you've made I see a statement: "Make it look like UT99." It's the kind of too clean design that is highly based on how low-poly the models in UT99 were so if you imagine them in hi-def you naturally end up with that kind of stuff. Look at Kana instead for example:
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            This is clearly done with modern technology in mind so it shows you that kind of detail when it comes to decoration. Personally that's what I'd like to see when it comes to detail and variety in characters: it wonderfully breaks the painful simmetry of UT99 characters by adding small things here and there and while it's clearly "high design", it still has a clean and coherent feel to it.

            An other example would be to compare the UT99 Rankin with the UT3 one:
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            This is how a returning character looks like in a new title. The design is not only more detailed than the one seen in UT99, it also tells a bit of a story on what happened to him since the first game: he grew older and he may have had a rough date with a malfunctioning respawner because now he has a mechanical arm instead of a normal one. It's these kind of small adjustments that make the character interesting yet again it presents a very clear artistic vision.

            When I look at UT99's characters today I see boring, generic looking soldiers and that's not because they were bad designs at the time, it's because we've seen this hundreds of times and also met with more interesting ones since then. If UT99's characters were made today, they wouldn't look like they looked back then and that is a crucial thing when it comes to designing new characters. They have to feel fresh and that's exactly what UT2k4 did with its Egyptian characters even if it was a bit too much.

            Just imagine if the new UT had this UT99 style, as you say "clean" character designs. I certainly wouldn't play with them and don't take that as that I mean what you did by recreating that style is bad. It's just not enough by today's standards.
            Last edited by Zaxx; 05-12-2014, 08:50 PM.

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              #21
              I clearly stated my design philosophy in the thread you mentioned and it goes well beyond "Make it look like UT99". I never said that.

              ...simpler armor ... might be seen as somewhat more "surplus" looking in terms of a futuristic soldier. That is also the point, seeing as this is a take on the original UT aesthetic. The story behind that game was that you are prisoners and criminals, Liandri wouldn't be decking out competitors in all the best gear, as recent games seem to have had.

              The UT3 (and overall modern game aesthetic) is to overdetail everything, use all kinds of fancy nanosuits and things like that. This is intentionally a different take, which would allow the colors to dominate, rather than be forcefully muted by necessity of texture detail.
              It is generally agreed upon by fans that the whole "war/revenge" storyline needs to be dropped and to return the series to its roots in that it is primarily a tournament. If the trend has been to stray further and further from this, both in story and design, I do not apologize one bit for giving it a nudge back in the other direction.

              Also, what you see is concept art, not a final product. If you like asymmetry, little details and whatnot, nothing says that these things cannot be built on the base concept I presented. It's meant to communicate an idea (for one faction), not be the de-facto look of the game.

              UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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                #22
                Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                I clearly stated my design philosophy in the thread you mentioned and it goes well beyond "Make it look like UT99". I never said that.



                It is generally agreed upon by fans that the whole "war/revenge" storyline needs to be dropped and to return the series to its roots in that it is primarily a tournament. If the trend has been to stray further and further from this, both in story and design, I do not apologize one bit for giving it a nudge back in the other direction.

                Also, what you see is concept art, not a final product. If you like asymmetry, little details and whatnot, nothing says that these things cannot be built on the base concept I presented. It's meant to communicate an idea (for one faction), not be the de-facto look of the game.
                Where does that bs come from regarding the stoy? When was the last time you watched the intro to UT99? A little help:
                • Background
                During the years of the Human/Skaarj war, Earth and the United Aligned Worlds formed the New Earth Government, a single government that might be more efficient at carrying out an interplanetary war. Deep space asteroid mining became the choice means of financing the war, with raw materials easily gained from within the Terran System.
                Mining was hard and the pay very poor. The working class grew more and more restless with their working conditions and a war that seemed to never cease. Each day the Skaarj invasion forces drew closer and few battles were won. Riots began to break out, the most notable being the "Green's World Rebellion," where over three thousand miners joined in a riot that would cost billions in damage.

                The Human/Skaarj war was brought to a standstill during the '7 Day Siege' when Skaarj forces surrounded the Terran system and Earth itself seemed doomed. All was made well when a crack team of NEG military specialists were able to destroy the Skri'ith Class Dreadnought 'Krujhlok', the Queen Ship of the Skaarj forces. Confused by the loss of their High Matriarch, the Skaarj withdrew. Their unity shattered by a well-placed fusion detonator.
                The damage was done, however. The NEG had largely ignored its internal social conditions while waging an expensive and impossible war. More and more mining "incidents" were being reported and cracking down seemed to have little effect.
                NEG politicians determined that the best policy was not to stifle the violence, but give it an outlet. In 2291, "consentual murder" was legalised.
                Under NEG law, any two people could, under organised conditions, fight to the death. The various mining conglomerates organised matches and small leagues to channel aggression.
                The results were immediate and successful. The leagues escalated with money and promotions offered to victors. One insightful corporation, the Liandri Mining Corporation, began to tri-cast fights and capitalises on the primal form of entertainment. Much to the LMC's financial delight, the tri-casts became more successful than the fights themselves; their popularity growing with their brutality.
                And that was 50 years before UT99 taking place. They are not there because they are prisoners or what not, sure they can be, but fighters are chosen because they're BRUTAL and they even make a show out of it. And they are sponsored, Liandri and the other corporations give them good armor and good weapons. Who would want to play in "surplus armor", what kind of empowerment would that give to the player? That's a very bad idea and acutally something someone came up with because the characters in UT were low-poly.
                Last edited by Zaxx; 05-12-2014, 10:07 PM.

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                  #23
                  I think Unreal Championship 2 Egyptian character models were sweet. The anubis outfit reminds me of Stargate

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                  a.k.a Gunner77

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                    #24
                    Anyone remember the God Horus model pack? Those were some pretty interesting character designs, I believe they were inspired by UC2.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Zaxx View Post
                      Where does that bs come from regarding the stoy? When was the last time you watched the intro to UT99? A little help:


                      And that was 50 years before UT99 taking place. They are not there because they are prisoners or what not, sure they can be, but fighters are chosen because they're BRUTAL and they even make a show out of it. And they are sponsored, Liandri and the other corporations give them good armor and good weapons. Who would want to play in "surplus armor", what kind of empowerment would that give to the player? That's a very bad idea and acutally something someone came up with because the characters in UT were low-poly.
                      LOL you have given this a lot of thought.

                      Bottom line is: They were mining colonies. The space miners were not staying in five star hotels and buying designer clothing (or designer armor suits). They were under miserable conditions, which is why they started killing each other in the first place. I am sure it would be possible to get them, but who cares? Now 50 years later, 100, 200 years later, whatever. These kind of things don't change. Yes, some other races were involved and such but it was almost always a. miners - b. criminals and c. mercenaries. None of which are overtly concerned with style.

                      You believe that every subsequent generation of design must somehow be more sophisticated than the last to have longevity or be relevant. But these are dudes fighting in deathmatches, I'm sure they focus on function over fashion and don't give a rat's behind if their suits are asymmetrical or not! And if they were missing a shoulder pad, someone would be far less likely to say "Wow you look awesome d00d" and far more likely to say "What are you, stupid? You're gonna get your arm blown off."

                      In the real world, how long does the novelty of a new style last? How far can you go with detail or "uniqueness" before it just becomes silly? You need a good core design that makes sense according to function. It is true that UT99's design values were influenced by the trends of the 90's in sci-fi etc, but at the same time:

                      1. That became the basis of the lore
                      2. The armor is easily identifiable with "gladiator".
                      3. There's nothing wrong with being purposely old school to begin with. Sometimes trying to be "new" all the time is BORING.

                      Basically, artistic sophistication, while nice for us, doesn't serve the game in any measurable way. People knew that when UT3 came out, and it tried too hard to present all this fancy stuff (including character designs) that had nothing to do with anything in that universe, for the most part. It was trying to reinvent itself just for the sake of reinvention, and it fell flat in a lot of ways due to this. This is not a knock on the talented designers and artists, they just didn't necessarily know their audience. Which may not be directly their fault.

                      This, for the first time, is an opportunity for the longtime players to have a say in how the game is made, what makes a great UT game. Obviously, everyone is going to have different ideas and interpretations. And it wouldn't be right to just throw away everything from UT2004 or UT3, nor did I suggest that at all! I love different things about each of those games.

                      What's important is to take the elements of each game that worked and fit in enough to keep things cohesive. If you have to stretch to find ways to write stuff in, you're doing it wrong. Exhibit A: The contrived "FLaG" explanation in the UT3 storyline for why they're playing Capture The Flag in the middle of some kind of blood feud. Exhibit B: Egyptians in UT200x. Simple.

                      If you want to have some kind of alien race that's influenced by that sort of aesthetic, hey, go nuts. But Apophis, Cleopatra and all this? Please.
                      Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 05-13-2014, 04:04 AM.

                      UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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                        #26
                        Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                        LOL you have given this a lot of thought.

                        Bottom line is: They were mining colonies. The space miners were not staying in five star hotels and buying designer clothing (or designer armor suits). They were under miserable conditions, which is why they started killing each other in the first place. I am sure it would be possible to get them, but who cares? Now 50 years later, 100, 200 years later, whatever. These kind of things don't change. Yes, some other races were involved and such but it was almost always a. miners - b. criminals and c. mercenaries. None of which are overtly concerned with style.

                        You believe that every subsequent generation of design must somehow be more sophisticated than the last to have longevity or be relevant. But these are dudes fighting in deathmatches, I'm sure they focus on function over fashion and don't give a rat's behind if their suits are asymmetrical or not! And if they were missing a shoulder pad, someone would be far less likely to say "Wow you look awesome d00d" and far more likely to say "What are you, stupid? You're gonna get your arm blown off."

                        In the real world, how long does the novelty of a new style last? How far can you go with detail or "uniqueness" before it just becomes silly? You need a good core design that makes sense according to function. It is true that UT99's design values were influenced by the trends of the 90's in sci-fi etc, but at the same time:

                        1. That became the basis of the lore
                        2. The armor is easily identifiable with "gladiator".
                        3. There's nothing wrong with being purposely old school to begin with. Sometimes trying to be "new" all the time is BORING.

                        Basically, artistic sophistication, while nice for us, doesn't serve the game in any measurable way. People knew that when UT3 came out, and it tried too hard to present all this fancy stuff (including character designs) that had nothing to do with anything in that universe, for the most part. It was trying to reinvent itself just for the sake of reinvention, and it fell flat in a lot of ways due to this. This is not a knock on the talented designers and artists, they just didn't necessarily know their audience. Which may not be directly their fault.

                        This, for the first time, is an opportunity for the longtime players to have a say in how the game is made, what makes a great UT game. Obviously, everyone is going to have different ideas and interpretations. And it wouldn't be right to just throw away everything from UT2004 or UT3, nor did I suggest that at all! I love different things about each of those games.

                        What's important is to take the elements of each game that worked and fit in enough to keep things cohesive. If you have to stretch to find ways to write stuff in, you're doing it wrong. Exhibit A: The contrived "FLaG" explanation in the UT3 storyline for why they're playing Capture The Flag in the middle of some kind of blood feud. Exhibit B: Egyptians in UT200x. Simple.

                        If you want to have some kind of alien race that's influenced by that sort of aesthetic, hey, go nuts. But Apophis, Cleopatra and all this? Please.
                        Sorry but this is such a high level of tunnel vision I cannot accept (anyway no, they weren't miners in UT99, that game takes place in a period when the fights were already popular, worldwide and sponsored). I guess we can stop doing concept art because we already have this from the 80's:
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                        Don't you get how silly, boring and uninspired the UT99 characters would look today? I'm sorry that you failed to understand what I was getting at, I just wanted to help a bit but I don't want to continue this discussion because I see now that is pointless.
                        Last edited by Zaxx; 05-13-2014, 07:31 AM.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Wutsittou View Post
                          I think Unreal Championship 2 Egyptian character models were sweet. The anubis outfit reminds me of Stargate

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]2453[/ATTACH]
                          Very cool. Now imagine those models with today's 3ds Max capabilities.

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                            #28
                            I hope their are a wide variety of factions to choose from. Being a tournament, I like the idea of teams with their own styles, In UT and UT2k4 there were different factions that were different but you could tell they were on a team together. That is what makes the tournament in the unreal universe feel like a tournament!!!!

                            I say yeah I hope they bring back the egyptians and many many others!

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Zaxx View Post
                              I think people hated the Egyptian style in UT2k4 mostly because it was not properly introduced to the lore and because people don't seem to understand the general concept of UT: it's a tournament with gladiators. A gladiator can dress up like that, why not? A team of gladiators can choose a style they want to wear, they can choose their nicknames etc. so the Egyptian characters were not actually Egyptians, they were gladiators who dig the Egyptian style and thought it was cool. That's something UT should embrace: what's wrong with sci-fi Egyptians or sci-fi vikings if done right? I tell you, absolutely nothing.
                              agreed on all counts. It could be a mistake to restrict focus too narrowly at this formative stage. I saw a thread keen to OUTLAW the heavy armour from UT3. Now, thinking of it from a model perspective, I felt obliged then, to ask whether that would also bar the Juggernauts from the game. A circumstance I would not like to see. Like you say, and the point I made, was that they felt the best strategy to compete in the tournament was to clad themselves in bulky armour and adapt their physique to cope- I find the idea of such diversity in Unreal to be a strength of the series, not something to be cut away as a flaw.
                              Last edited by Spinarax; 05-14-2014, 08:56 PM.

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                                #30
                                I wish it was easier to find examples of the Nakhti females other than Selket. :/
                                Memphis and Nepthys actually look pretty reasonable, and the animal head helmets really made them stand out. A point could be made for a little more cover-up, but then again they are notorious adrenaline junkies and show-offs, so flashy, sexy armor could be expected.
                                http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/Duke321/UC2d.jpg
                                I'm not a huge fan of the 2kx design, because as others have noted it felt like they were wearing Egyptian gift shops as armor, but the UC2 designs took it in a very cool direction (if you can find any images of it other than Selket's T&A.)

                                UT certainly started as scuzzy fights on deep-space mining colonies, but even by UT 99 it was a galaxy-wide entertainment enterprise worth "hundreds of billions." This isn't going to still be just rag-tag street thugs and mercs (although those certainly wouldn't be out of place, either.)
                                There should really be a mix of teams. You'd have the well-established main teams like Thundercrash and Iron Guard, the second-tier and/or up and coming teams like Blood Reavers or (dare I say it) Hellions, the foreign teams from the more distant corners of the galaxy, like the Nakhti, and then the assassin groups or other special-interest teams like the Necris or the Skaarj Hybrids that are in for ulterior motives.

                                Even the original had a good mix of practical / militaristic-looking characters (ie: Dark Phalanx) and more colorful, sporty characters (ie: Venom or Metal Guard.)
                                Last edited by U1849KA; 05-15-2014, 07:55 PM.

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