Combine enforcer and hammer ?

[Zoh]

I quite like the idea of combining the two weapons to have 1 starting weapon that allows you to do a charged melee attack which lets you do jumps, with the other firing mode being normal hit scan. It would free up space for another weapon, and it would get rid of the current hammer secondary.

[richardboegli]

Again, if you have ideas or suggestions, please post them

Will do. I like Melee weapons in general. So the HamForcer has really piqued my interest.

I'll just be sitting there and a random idea will just pop in, so I'll post. Hence the one post after the another post earlier today

Also, the reason that this post is quite long....as I was about to submit something else would come to mind....so I kept tacking on bits to it....

Imho, if I look at some of the prototype weapons, even tertiary fire modes are over-complicating some guns a lot. 4 fire modes would be waaaay too much.

The reluctance is justified, I just wanted to go out there and not discount anything just yet and threw out a quad fire mode weapon.
Reminds me of the !@#$ Everything, We're Doing Five Blades by the Onion back in 2004.

If we kept all the four firing modes and then paired them back as required.

I'd simply just replace the tri-shot alt-fire on the enforcer (which is equally redundant) with the hammer primary or some other melee ability.

If we had to rationalise, I too would remove the tri-mode as I think it is redundant.

Reflecting on how to bring this weapon back to a dual state weapon here is one proposal:

HamForcer Piston (I'll just name each concept with a random name to make it easier to reference in future)

• Primary Fire - Same as current enforcer, but increase the damage to 25 per shot
  • This is to compensate for tri-shot alt-fire being removed
  • When playing 2 v 2 TDM on DM-Chill with weapon stay off, weapon management is challenging. Having the default spawn weapon a bit more powerful would be useful
  
  
• Secondary Fire - Impact Shield (Unifying the current Impact Hammer Primary and Secondary into one)
  • Click
    • At close range
      • Knock back opponents
      • Deflect bullets
      
      
    • Give a very short jump
    
    
  • Hold Down / Charge up
    • At close range it applies same damage like current charged Impact Hammer
    • Deflect bullets over a wider area (either protection is higher or deflection range increased)
    • Give a very large jump depending on charge time
    
    
  
  

Shot Gauntlets
When replying to this post RWBY's Yang Xiao Long's Ember Celica Dual Ranged Shot Gauntlets (DRSG) came to mind.

Pistol flying from hand
Also, other comments about the the pistol flying out of your hand....
What if the underside of the pistol where you would put a torch or a laser sight had some sort of impact canister.
You would still need some sort of wrist / forearm locking mechanism....
That's as far as I have thought about this concept

Enforcer Pareidolia - Pareidolia / Based off GPR-021 Toner Cartridge
I haven't started modelling this yet, so I'll reflect and see if there is a way I can "HamForce" it

That'll do for now.

[richardboegli]

anyway, I do really like the idea of a "paddle" mode. An arc going between the two guns when you are dual wielding? Why not?? It would be hilarious to see the two guns wiped together and "CLEAR!" then use it as a more powerful melee, or perhaps EMP?

LOL, I like this.
"Paging Doctor Death"

How about a magnet mode, which lets you do a longer wallslide, at the cost of 1 gun. If you dual wield, you can fire one gun still while wallsliding.

Interesting idea.

[InVader]

• Primary Fire - Same as current enforcer, but increase the damage to 25 per shot
  • This is to compensate for tri-shot alt-fire being removed
  • When playing 2 v 2 TDM on DM-Chill with weapon stay off, weapon management is challenging. Having the default spawn weapon a bit more powerful would be useful

The damage was nerfed because 4 shots to take someone out is far too powerful for a starting weapon, not because it has 3-shot. What if you're dual wielding this gun? The dps would be out of this world. Lets keep it where it is right now.

• Secondary Fire - Impact Shield (Unifying the current Impact Hammer Primary and Secondary into one)
  • Click
    • At close range
      • Knock back opponents
      • Deflect bullets
      
      
    • Give a very short jump
    
    
  • Hold Down / Charge up
    • At close range it applies same damage like current charged Impact Hammer
    • Deflect bullets over a wider area (either protection is higher or deflection range increased)
    • Give a very large jump depending on charge time

I also though about combining these 2 fire modes. For simplicity's sake, the alt-fire could always have the Shield function, but it wouldn't spread outwards like does now. Keep the shield anchored to the gun as you move. Charging wouldn't do anything with the shield (maybe just make it a longer pulse) it would only make the damage and jump-height higher. The ability to release a shield burst even if you're charging would be ideal for timing those shield bursts well.

I'm still saying we should just remove charging ability tho. Make it instant and the damage/shield length and size dependent on whether you're dual wielding. At least it would give the mappers a more than valid reason to add enforcer weapon spawners. People would also be more encouraged to use hammerjumping, etc.
Whatever.

Ahh, yes Yellow's Gauntlets. For the combined alt-fire these would be ideal, yes. It's a melee ability afterall, and this looks like exploding fist weapons. It's badass... as far as melee goes. For ranged fire it still looks a bit silly imho.

Combining these gauntlets with the hidden pistols... Now that I can get behind! I might create a 3D concept this weekend. @Wail, if you create this and want some temporary weapon models, just hit me up!

Note to myself: gotta download the high-poly character models.

Alright lads, let's get this **** going!

[richardboegli]

The damage was nerfed because 4 shots to take someone out is far too powerful for a starting weapon, not because it has 3-shot. What if you're dual wielding this gun? The dps would be out of this world. Lets keep it where it is right now.

Fair point, that slipped my mind.

I also though about combining these 2 fire modes. For simplicity's sake, the alt-fire could always have the Shield function, but it wouldn't spread outwards like does now. Keep the shield anchored to the gun as you move. Charging wouldn't do anything with the shield (maybe just make it a longer pulse) it would only make the damage and jump-height higher. The ability to release a shield burst even if you're charging would be ideal for timing those shield bursts well.

This could work.

I'm still saying we should just remove charging ability tho. Make it instant and the damage/shield length and size dependent on whether you're dual wielding. At least it would give the mappers a more than valid reason to add enforcer weapon spawners. People would also be more encouraged to use hammerjumping, etc.
Whatever.

Around Q3 in 2014, IIRC the IH got nerfed from being able to no charge IH Jump, to requiring a charge time.
My suggestion was to just keep it inline with that.

Ahh, yes Yellow's Gauntlets. For the combined alt-fire these would be ideal, yes. It's a melee ability afterall, and this looks like exploding fist weapons. It's badass... as far as melee goes. For ranged fire it still looks a bit silly imho.

Agreed, Melee yes, ranged No.

Combining these gauntlets with the hidden pistols... Now that I can get behind!

I like that idea!

I might create a 3D concept this weekend.

Cannot wait to see what you come up with!

[Darkloser]

@Wail, paging wail... Raste needs you :P

anyway, I do really like the idea of a "paddle" mode. An arc going between the two guns when you are dual wielding? Why not?? It would be hilarious to see the two guns wiped together and "CLEAR!" then use it as a more powerful melee, or perhaps EMP?

Maybe not the most efficient, but I would like to see a forced ragdoll (or feign death) in conjunction with this, just for a good laugh.
Charge, CLEAR ! *opponent fall flat, die in a pit filled with lava*

Actually it's kind of similar to the Freezing effect of the Dispersion pistol in UC2 no ? Then you'll have plenty of way to finish your opponent, maybe with a little prize if you use a proper finisher (bonus points ?). And it's badass !

[InVader]

Maybe not the most efficient, but I would like to see a forced ragdoll (or feign death) in conjunction with this, just for a good laugh.
Charge, CLEAR ! *opponent fall flat, die in a pit filled with lava*

Actually it's kind of similar to the Freezing effect of the Dispersion pistol in UC2 no ? Then you'll have plenty of way to finish your opponent, maybe with a little prize if you use a proper finisher (bonus points ?). And it's badass !

what if the hammer blows a hole in your chest?

[Darkloser]

what if the hammer blows a hole in your chest?

Well in this case he is straight up dead... I think... So what I suggest is pointless.

What I wanted is a Mufasa style death.

[Raste]

Firing modes proposal

Let's do not discuss how the effect should look like right now and focus on the firing modes. Here is my take on this:

Single wielding

• Left Click: Enforcer powerful shot, slow ROF to give the gun a longer learning curve
• Right Click: Hammer, possibility to load (possible to fire in the meantime). Release for regular impact. Combo if hammer on a player + firing at the same time (brutal finish)

Dual wielding

• Left Click: alternate fire, gains ROF. the guns are used horizontally, like in UT99)
• Right Click: Two Hammers with possibility to load (possible to fire one of them meanwhile, same as single wielding). Release for improved impact. Combo ***** if double hammer + firing at the same time (Reanimation finish).

Firing mode toggle
We could use the wheel click to switch between 2 or 3 firing modes for the hamforcer. Each of these modes would be incarnated by a small transformation on the gun(s).

• Default: normal ROF on the enforcer, normal charge speed of the IH
• Mode 1: slower ROF on the enfocer, faster charge speed of the IH. The IH collects the extra energy from the fires to make the loading faster. Can be used even out of combat to quickly charge the IH, at the price of audio detection

So if you dual wield and use the mode 1, you can gain more momentum from a jump with reduced reloading time. It would make the Hamforcer hard to master but very polyvalent, able to become powerful for attack or for evasion while dual wielding. Note that the amount of shift between these two modes could be done with the mouse wheel, so that you can customize the amount of ROF you are willing to sacrifice for faster loading time of the hammer.

For me this is a solution that offers many strategic possibilities, a powerful gun that looks and sounds badass, not too many firing modes, and a steep learning curve that allows pro to really enjoy it as much as noobs


Thoughts ?

[InVader]

Ladies and gentleman I'm presenting you the UT Combat Impact Cestus (CIC). This is approximately what it would look like with the hidden pistol out.

It looks completely different when using the hammer alt-fire. The pistol and ammo belt are hidden and the dragon head on the outer side of the cestus completely re-constructs into a cannon to blast you enemies in their face! That is not displayed on these pictures yet, so there's more to come!





btw. That makes mechanically no sense right now, I just wanted to come up with something that explains the general idea as quick as possible.



And a 1st person-ish view for last.

I mailed @YemYam for details on polygon/vertex cap for the low-poly version of weapons. Depending on what our vertex budget is, I could totally go full transformers with this gauntlet - lots of little metallic parts and scrap shaping into a gauntlet. The pistol itself could be de-constructed as you retract is so that you can use the alt-fire.

If that's too much for a low-poly weapon (or even the 1st person version) I can always make it more simple, but of course it won't look that cool.


@Raste My gauntlet could totally handle all that. Even the pistol could slightly re-form. There could also be some sort of link between 2 of these, if the player is dual wielding. For the double hammer the gauntlets could connect and form a single big-*** cannon.
Gameplay-wise though, I'm not sure you would want to over-complicate the weapon with so many firing modes.

[richardboegli]

[MENTION=9373]InVader[/MENTION] amazing effort there. Awesome work.

Having a gun that deconstructs and reconstructs would look awesome.

I'm thinking something like when you first pickup Halo 5's Binary Rifle.

Can't find a video on YouTube. I'll get someone to do a screen record if you haven't seen it.

[richardboegli]

[MENTION=12443]Raste[/MENTION] reducing the enforcer fire rate to get an Instant Impact Hammer is something it'd set all the time and just try to find a weapon ASAP. So I wouldn't use the other mode much.

[Raste]

Ladies and gentleman I'm presenting you the UT Combat Impact Cestus (CIC). This is approximately what it would look like with the hidden pistol out.

It looks completely different when using the hammer alt-fire. The pistol and ammo belt are hidden and the dragon head on the outer side of the cestus completely re-constructs into a cannon to blast you enemies in their face! That is not displayed on these pictures yet, so there's more to come!

btw. That makes mechanically no sense right now, I just wanted to come up with something that explains the general idea as quick as possible.

And a 1st person-ish view for last.

If that's too much for a low-poly weapon (or even the 1st person version) I can always make it more simple, but of course it won't look that cool.

@Raste My gauntlet could totally handle all that. Even the pistol could slightly re-form. There could also be some sort of link between 2 of these, if the player is dual wielding. For the double hammer the gauntlets could connect and form a single big-*** cannon.
Gameplay-wise though, I'm not sure you would want to over-complicate the weapon with so many firing modes.

Please do not move too fast into the modeling man. The concept is not even completely there just yet! This is too soon as we might change the functionnalities and the design will also have to change. Only once the design is set in stone can we start to model the weapon.

I like your enthusiasm, so help me figuring out the concept first!

@Raste reducing the enforcer fire rate to get an Instant Impact Hammer is something it'd set all the time and just try to find a weapon ASAP. So I wouldn't use the other mode much.

Yes, because it would be your style. Other people will use a different style and do things their way. This is the goal of having options on the gun... also it wouldn't be an instant full impact hammer, it would have to be balanced!

[richardboegli]

Yes, because it would be your style. Other people will use a different style and do things their way. This is the goal of having options on the gun... also it wouldn't be an instant full impact hammer, it would have to be balanced!

I realise the reason for the options , just stating my point of view and why I would pick it.

I'm trying to think of all the usage scenarios, so just eliminating the one closest to me first

[InVader]

Please do not move too fast into the modeling man. The concept is not even completely there just yet! This is too soon as we might change the functionnalities and the design will also have to change. Only once the design is set in stone can we start to model the weapon.

I like your enthusiasm, so help me figuring out the concept first!

Well, my mind is already set on a gauntlet/cestus roughly like this one for the weapon model, so I thought why not just do it, to push this idea even harder to Epic.

Yes, because it would be your style. Other people will use a different style and do things their way. This is the goal of having options on the gun... also it wouldn't be an instant full impact hammer, it would have to be balanced!

tbh I'd rather have instant impact hammer with reduced damage, simply because that wouldn't feel so clunky as the charging mechanic. A quick tap, like with the ******* Sword in ChaosUT.

To make it balanced, I'd give it a 0.05-0.3 sec delay and slightly bigger range than 'touching' range, otherwise it would be impossible to time the instant hammer right to hit the enemy. The slight delay would also help making it feel like you really pack a huge blast with the alt-fire detonation.
Damage would be 40-55 for single enforcer (dual wield should do double damage).
In case we make the damage < 50 to avoid insatkilling with dual-enforcers, it should have a relatively big knockback distance, so that you can finish off the enemy with the primary fire.