Combine enforcer and hammer ?

[the_hack]

I've created a prototype for a similar concept. I called it airgun, basically it shoots nails on primary and air on secondary. The air propels you for horizontal speed or vertical boost, while the nails are setup to have a similar dps as enforcer, as well as being able to support climbing walls (based on old mini shards). a10 is the stable version to test. There is no moddling at this stage, I'm happy enough hijacking the current hammer model.

https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtour...rforcer-airgun

[papercoffee]

Ok, I had once the idea of a different Ripper which could be a replacement (or addition) for the Impact Hammer. It's a thread somewhere buried in the weapon design section. I'll search for it and maybe I can open a thread and show some artworks. The Bio and the Ripper where always my favourite weapons.

[the_hack]

I dreamed of ripper somethg like that: Acting like a chainsaw at close range, our good old ripper at long range. That can be done for enforcer too, like a warhammer 40k style weapon.

Imagine the possiblities...

this could have a jump mechanism similar to current impact hammer - the kickback when the blade hits something at speed. It could also have a warm up time like IH so causing minimum damange and giving minimum kickback at first up to maximum in a couple of seconds.

[Raste]

Wow, this is an old thread. Happy to see it generates some comments and ideas of your own ! I guess my initial point was to be a bit provocative and get the dev team to realize it could be a good way to combine two guns and give space for a new one. Please keep going ! It looks interesting so far

[Samanie]

I dreamed of ripper somethg like that: Acting like a chainsaw at close range, our good old ripper at long range. That can be done for enforcer too, like a warhammer 40k style weapon.

Imagine the possiblities...

[the_hack]

I also agree this would be great in game. Enforcer primary with impact hammer secondary. Some type of Shield mechanism for secondary plus primary?

Especially useful as shield is mostly good off spawn, when enforcer is also the only choice.

[rapfamily4]

Nice thoughts, [MENTION=260374]Ishatix[/MENTION]

Anyway, I use the shield sometimes

By the way, I think #6 is a really good idea. I remember [MENTION=3094]Wail[/MENTION] did something like this with his personal version of the Impact Hammer.

[Ishatix]

I think there is something interesting to this concept, namely the challenge to provide more dynamic combat options to newly spawned players. However, I have a lot of concerns with the current set of suggestions.

(For the speed readers – new ideas picked out with numbers in bold and more minor changes/requests with letters)

I love the enforcer. It has that great "solid" feel of the UT99 enforcer that was missing from the other UT games. I don't understand the indifference shown towards it by some here. Have you tried using it much? A few well aimed shots go a long way and I've managed to win fights with it vs. the stinger a few times. Therefore I am extremely wary about fundamental changes to how it works... Or at least in terms of the primary fire. The secondary fire I don't feel so strongly about.
The main weakness it has at the moment is that the starting ammo is too low so it gets used up quickly and then you're stuck with just the IH. (A) Please increase the starting ammo for the enforcer!

Similarly for the impact hammer I suppose. The primary fire is a classic and still appears to be well loved/used in the latest UT. The shield secondary doesn't appear to be getting so much use. I think the dynamics here are important (what options you have and how long they take to implement in combat), but I will come back to this in a moment. My main complaint with the IH is the look and feel of it. Considering the forces involved it should look and sound more substantial (and no way should be manageable one-handed; I get the comedy aspect, but dual-wielding IH seems gimmicky and a little pointless if it's one hit kill in any case). I'd opt for the old, raw, and slightly steam-punk roaring beast of a mining tool over the current iteration any day.

Imho, if I look at some of the prototype weapons, even tertiary fire modes are over-complicating some guns a lot. 4 fire modes would be waaaay too much. I'd simply just replace the tri-shot alt-fire on the enforcer (which is equally redundant) with the hammer primary or some other melee ability.

(1) I think trying to combine multiple weapons' functions into one is more easily served with faster weapon switching.

Also I'd like to keep the 'pistol' aspect of your starting weapon if possible. There's just that simple obscure something about them. There's nothing quite like the feeling of wielding akimbo enforcers - just like the feeling of dual berettas, ever since Max Payne made it look cool. I can't quite describe why I love akimbo pistols. I simply do, I guess.

Anyone else shares this love for pistols?

Yes! I agree completely. This is why the enforcer is one of my favourite weapons. It has style. Think of Q3A for instance and how lacklustre the machine gun starting weapon felt by comparison. Running around with an enforcer is fun, it's engaging! Why? Because every shot landed with it feels like an achievement on the road to real kill potential. Running around with a weapon akin to the GoldenEye staple gun on the other hand is mind-numbingly dull.

Dual-enforcers is my absolute favourite. I will use them whenever possible no matter what else I have (apart from maybe flak). (B) I wish more maps had second enforcer pickups.

EDIT: As for the dual-hammer forcers, I think it could amplify the melee ability. A single hammer-forcer could have a simple aim-click melee ability, instead of charging a hammer, BUT it would do non-lethal damage with full boost height. Wield 2 of them would amplify the melee ability to full (lethal) damage (still no need to charge).

OK, but then it's no longer an IH really. You may as well just have Doom style knuckle-dusters to give you this functionality, or just a pistol slap (2)... Actually that might be a fun idea to replace the enforcer secondary with. On top of that, you could hold down secondary and release to throw the enforcer at someone (e.g. in frustration after you've run out of your starting ammo). ☺

I quite like the idea of combining the two weapons to have 1 starting weapon that allows you to do a charged melee attack which lets you do jumps, with the other firing mode being normal hit scan. It would free up space for another weapon, and it would get rid of the current hammer secondary.

(3) How about something like the laser in Xonotic? It serves both as a basic weapon and (more usually) as a jumping tool. Although this works better in a game with faster weapon switching (Xonotic's design encourages rapidly cycling between two weapons in combat, e.g. with the Q key, leading to a much wider range of combat options). As mentioned above, I think the current challenges of combined enforcer/IH/shield gun might be better addressed with faster weapon switching, but needs some careful thought/testing and I would be interested to hear other's views on this given how fundamental it is.

(4) Maybe a middle ground approach might be to make the weapon switch time weapon dependent, e.g. could be faster to switch to enforcer but same time as currently for other weapons. It makes sense to me that it should take longer to switch between bigger weapons compared to say just dropping your existing weapon onto a tether and yanking out the enforcer. I also like this idea as it makes the enforcer more widely useful as back-up weapon. e.g. set it as higher priority so that when you run out of ammo in the middle of a fight you can automatically and quickly pull out the enforcer to finish the job. (Still need ammo for it though!).

GREAT IDEA!
and reaper was a fun weapon as well.

You mean the ripper? It's already there; though could do with a new model as currently looks the same as the translocator.


New suggestion (5) in the rough: How about combing the impact hammer with the chain saw. Impact hammer has a cylindrical nozzle, and around its leading outer rim spins some sort of circular chainsaw or blades. Holding primary fire charges up the impact hammer as normal but also spins the saw/blades so that you can still do small amounts of damage straight away. Secondary fire does the old chainsaw secondary style "swing" allowing for larger amounts of damage and headshots on demand but requires more skill to land.

What about the shield gun you ask? Well, I'm not so fussed about keeping that tbh, but maybe it would be better combined with the jumping beam weapon mentioned above (i.e. primary for jumps, secondary for shield gun or vice-versa). They seem a more natural fit to each other, both being momentum imparting energy beams. (6) Actually, now that I think about it, there's not even any need for them to be separate firing modes. Why not just have the shield gun impart opposing momentum to the player when it is fired at an adjacent floor or wall? Might be worth trying out with the current IH secondary.

[[NME]ReAVeR]

GREAT IDEA!
and reaper was a fun weapon as well.

[InVader]

Bumping for awareness. I would very much like to see this included in the game and I would be excited to go forth with modeling the CIC gauntlets (ones we set the functionality in stone). Picking up 2 of these and going ham with the double melee gauntlets sounds like fun.

[rapfamily4]

I realised that this 'Hamforcer' is quite similar to [MENTION=260111]Daedalus29[/MENTION] 's Charge Enforcer concept. Take a look at it: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...l=1#post202434

[InVader]

Hi guys,

FYI here's E-mail from Pete:

Our weapons range from 15 -20k verts (we always measure vert count and don't pay attention to tri/poly count). As long as you don't go over that you should be fine. The Rocket Launcher is a little over that but I felt the design required it. Look forward to seeing your progress!

Pete

I'd say a transforming weapon is doable with that, though I'd have to restrict myself not to go too crazy with it.

Let me know when ya'll are ready to give this weapon the green lights. I'll get back to working on my stinger in the meanwhile.

[rapfamily4]

Uh, that's really cool! The best thing for me is to keep the Impact Hammer and the Enforcer, giving the possibility to get the "Hamforcer" enabling a mutator.

[Raste]

Well, my mind is already set on a gauntlet/cestus roughly like this one for the weapon model, so I thought why not just do it, to push this idea even harder to Epic.

I get that, but I just don't want to rush into the aesthetics of the gun before the concept is complete. Your gauntlet could be a start, but there is no guarantee we will go for a gauntlet yet. I am working on a first idea that would support the firing modes I just described above. Let's see first how the community reacts to this concept, and only after that rush into the modeling ok?

Right now I need feedback on the concept itself, that's the most useful thing right now ^^

[InVader]

Please do not move too fast into the modeling man. The concept is not even completely there just yet! This is too soon as we might change the functionnalities and the design will also have to change. Only once the design is set in stone can we start to model the weapon.

I like your enthusiasm, so help me figuring out the concept first!

Well, my mind is already set on a gauntlet/cestus roughly like this one for the weapon model, so I thought why not just do it, to push this idea even harder to Epic.

Yes, because it would be your style. Other people will use a different style and do things their way. This is the goal of having options on the gun... also it wouldn't be an instant full impact hammer, it would have to be balanced!

tbh I'd rather have instant impact hammer with reduced damage, simply because that wouldn't feel so clunky as the charging mechanic. A quick tap, like with the ******* Sword in ChaosUT.

To make it balanced, I'd give it a 0.05-0.3 sec delay and slightly bigger range than 'touching' range, otherwise it would be impossible to time the instant hammer right to hit the enemy. The slight delay would also help making it feel like you really pack a huge blast with the alt-fire detonation.
Damage would be 40-55 for single enforcer (dual wield should do double damage).
In case we make the damage < 50 to avoid insatkilling with dual-enforcers, it should have a relatively big knockback distance, so that you can finish off the enemy with the primary fire.