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    Request for CTF mappers

    I have it on good authority that Excessive Overkill is being worked on for UT4.

    This insane mutator has historically been primarily played in CTF, and for many years in UT99, quite competitively.

    In Excessive Overkill (EO), translocators are launched ten times as far. Players can rocket jump across bases in CTF-Face. Players can climb walls with a infinite series of rocket jumps (well until they run out of ammo or make a mistake.)

    There's not a whole lot of videos out there of what this looks like but here's one:


    (I'd be happy to show anyone the ropes on a UT99 server if you want the first hand experience)

    But what does this mean for CTF mappers?

    Don't put invisible ceilings on outdoor maps. Players may go where you don't intend for them to go so check for glitches everywhere. Don't put a lot of aesthetic touches that will reach out and block a rocketjumper unexpectedly. If you've got to put an invisible wall up to bound them map, make it logical, straight and very very very tall.

    #2
    I myself try to break the maps but I've got to hand it to the Epics map makers they thought of everywhere fun to go to troll and used blocking volumes like a boss
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      #3
      Originally posted by code187 View Post
      I myself try to break the maps but I've got to hand it to the Epics map makers they thought of everywhere fun to go to troll and used blocking volumes like a boss
      I despise blocking volumes :|
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        #4
        Originally posted by code187 View Post
        I myself try to break the maps but I've got to hand it to the Epics map makers they thought of everywhere fun to go to troll and used blocking volumes like a boss
        This is actually something I despise about about post UT99 maps.

        As far as I'm concerned, if I can see a way to get to it, I should be able to get to it. Hitting an invisible wall sucks. Its either the mapper admitting that they were thinking more about aesthetics than they were about about how the map plays, or they're admitting that they only want their map played a certain way, and **** you if you try to get around that.

        Abusing blocking volumes feels like a lazy cop-out.

        UT99's DM-ArcaneTemple has an area above the waterfall that you can only reach with a hammer jump. If you get up there, you'll essentially be standing in the skybox. It's an ugly, immersion-breaking area of the map. But there's two boxes of sniper ammo up there. The only reason to be up there is to camp like a lameass, and rather than artificially block players from getting up into the skybox, the mapper (Shane Caudle) decided that, if people were going to try and get up into the skybox, then why not let them?

        That's a kind of level design philosophy that's been gone ever since. Even the current DM maps have huge blocking volumes all over them - DM-Chill is a notable example, with countless ledges, walls and rooftops that you could conceivably reach, all with giant blocking volumes over them.

        I don't feel that this was more detrimental to the game anywhere than it was in UT2004's assault mode, where blocking volumes were absolutely everywhere to thwart almost every conceivable trick to play the map in a way other than what epic intended, ignoring the fact all of the most played assault maps in UT99 were those that allowed, even encouraged such behavior.

        Instead of thinking about how to force players to play 'properly', mappers should design with player's propensity for tricks and 'dirty' tactics in mind.
        Last edited by Diode; 08-07-2015, 07:39 PM.
        also known as Humphro

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          #5
          Jumping up there and snipering below does in no way break the map. It add to it imo you know their up there and you can easily shoot back and kill them. Combos did the job easily I used to camp inside the rocket room and spawn kill outside and to the side the sniper would steal my frags. Thats when you take them out the redeemer in the water made easy work of this also. Also if you were the one up there it's not like you didn't have to do any work to get frags or avoid people trying to kill you. This added to the map for me.
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            #6
            Originally posted by Diode View Post
            Instead of thinking about how to force players to play 'properly', mappers should design with player's propensity for tricks and 'dirty' tactics in mind.
            That's exactly what level designers are thinking about when they place blocking volumes over and/or around areas like that.

            You're forgetting that the old maps were subtractive (starts out solid, you subtract open spaces from that) and skyboxes were viewed on solid surfaces with a special flag set. The empty space around the playable part of the map was actually solid. The skybox was a special subtractive area part of the map surrounded by solid geometry separating it from the playable part of the map. You could not get into the skybox from the playable part of the map.

            UT4 maps are additive (starts out empty, you add solid geometry to it), empty space is not solid, it's just empty space. There is no skybox, the area around the playable part of the map is not solid and the things that would have been in a skybox in 99 are in that empty space.

            Getting into a "skylight" (not to be confused with skybox) like the one you're talking about in Arcane Temple 99 wasn't a big deal in 99 because you couldn't get anywhere else from there. In UT4 skylights like that are a very big deal because it isn't just a small subtracted cube up there, it's wide open empty space. From there you could fall out of the map or get to places you shouldn't be able to go. Blocking volumes prevent that.
            Last edited by MoxNix; 08-08-2015, 03:26 AM.

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              #7
              Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
              That's exactly what level designers are thinking about when they place blocking volumes over and/or around areas like that.
              It is, but they're dealing with them in such a way that they're basically dictating how the game must be played rather than designing to support and balance such tactics.

              I'm aware of how UT99's subtractive geometry works, and the skybox in ArcaneTemple was an extreme example. What's really irritating me is **** like this:

              Click image for larger version

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              It's not to keep players from falling out of the map. That's what Kill Z is for.

              Those blocking volumes prevent players from getting up ontop of any of the surrounding cliffs for no other reason than keep players playing in the specific, predefined, kosher manner. Can you imagine if CTF-LavaGiant had done this in UT99?

              The mapper has made a clear statement with these blocking volumes - creative tactics are not allowed. This brings down the skill ceiling, brings down teamplay, and caters to the lowest common denominator of players who can't think outside the box. This kind of design philosophy sucked the fun out of UT 12 years ago, and I'm horrified to see it still being wholesale embraced by mappers yet again.

              Those blocking volumes need to go if this game's competitive scene is going to last at all.
              Last edited by Diode; 08-08-2015, 05:08 PM.
              also known as Humphro

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                #8
                If you don't like it then why don't you make your own maps and show them how to do it right?

                AFAIC, complaining about blocking volumes preventing players from getting out of the intended playable part of the map in games with translocator on is silly. Especially with outdoor maps. The only other options would be to not make outdoor maps at all, or surround every outdoor map with ridiculously high vertical walls (might as well call them canyon maps rather than outdoor maps).

                Now if it's something decorative sticking out of or cut into the wall that's more easily accessed and looks like you should be able stand there but you can't... That's another story, most of those type things I don't care for either.

                Besides that's just a WIP map anyhow. You have no idea how high the walls will be in the release version, if they'll be flat on top, or for that matter if there'll be a forcefield, a deadly ring of fire, or w/e preventing/discouraging going up there.

                Or how about prison style guard towers with .50 cals that automatically gun down anyone who goes up there in 0.1 seconds flat? I really like that one!
                Last edited by MoxNix; 08-08-2015, 05:33 PM.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                  You have no idea how high the walls will be in the release version, if they'll be flat on top, or for that matter if there'll be a forcefield, a deadly ring of fire, or w/e preventing/discouraging going up there.
                  Oh, that's a good idea! I think it would make sense for Liandri to surround their arenas with special forcefields so combatants won't translocate away.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                    If you don't like it then why don't you make your own maps and show them how to do it right?
                    I primarily make assault maps, but I use the same philosophies in them. I've done walls with damage triggering barb wire over them allow hammer jumps but at the same time punish poorly executed ones. Auto turrets places on alternate, seemingly out of bounds routes are good way of putting a health tax on them. AS-Highspeed is one of the most playable of the vanilla assault maps, and it was also the only one that that seemed actively designed make the most out of a route that would otherwise seem like an unintentional cheat

                    I think that too was another Shane Caudle map, if I'm not mistaken.

                    Or how about prison style guard towers with .50 cals that automatically gun down anyone who goes up there in 0.1 seconds flat? I really like that one
                    This would be pretty in keeping with the lore, what with many of the combatants being convicted criminals forced to fight for public entertainment.

                    Wouldn't want them escaping the arena.
                    also known as Humphro

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