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    Blockin volumes and kill volumes are annoying

    I think If you don't want someone to go somewhere, then you should put something there that is visible. I don't like invisible kill volumes either. If your going to use a kill volume you might as well put lava there instead. I think players should always be aloud to fall to their death. To get around the problem of players having falls that waste to much time, I would suggest a suicide function.
    Last edited by Jakeonna; 12-07-2015, 03:06 PM.
    I use to be a tournament competitor like you till I got concrete to the knee.

    #2
    Strongly agree. When Excessive Overkill and it's ticket jumping if released any map with blocking and kill volumes within 100 yards of the regular field of play can ruin the Mao for that gametype.

    Comment


      #3
      Guys, this is Pre Alpha and what you see now will not be the same when this game is finished or the map in question is finished!

      ....your better off responding in the thread of the map your not liking and letting them know to add to the list of things to check out or change!

      That would better server the community than starting a new thread of your personal feelings!


      http://aggressivewarriors.com -=- {AW}'s Community Map Test Server -=-

      Comment


        #4
        Also, it's, uh, not really practical to make maps without either of these things. Take Outpost 23, for example- you would have to remove all the windows, skylights, and outdoor area. Why? Because the map has to end somewhere, you can't model an entire planet in Unrealed, not only is it not possible but if it were it would take astronomical amounts of time. So the map ends at some point, and when you reach that point the player either has to be blocked from moving outside of it or the player has to die. There are no other options.

        Comment


          #5
          I agree, it's not great design to have invisible walls, at least not at normal gameplay heights, with the exception of a combo with jump boots and low gravity that can cause some pretty extreme cases. Then blocking volumes are the way forward. Kill triggers should only be where it's painfully obvious like when falling down a long way or lava/gas/environment hazard.
          Last edited by Chris.Kay; 11-25-2015, 10:46 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by aniviron View Post
            Also, it's, uh, not really practical to make maps without either of these things. Take Outpost 23, for example- you would have to remove all the windows, skylights, and outdoor area. Why? Because the map has to end somewhere, you can't model an entire planet in Unrealed, not only is it not possible but if it were it would take astronomical amounts of time. So the map ends at some point, and when you reach that point the player either has to be blocked from moving outside of it or the player has to die. There are no other options.
            They could also use portals. I would prefer them to be seemless portals, and I hope they do add them.
            I use to be a tournament competitor like you till I got concrete to the knee.

            Comment


              #7
              Indeed is is a matter to be decided by each mapper, not Epic.
              Part of the complete mappers art is learning how to set-dress and obfuscate the edges so that the players don't even get there, or feel the need to try.
              Trying to anticipate how players will want to use a map with other mutators further down the road can be difficult I know, but you can easily look at any other UT to see the rules were only guidelines, and mappers pushed the boundaries beyond what you are "supposed to do", due to newer developments.

              I often remove lots of blocking volumes from UT2004 maps and re-save so I can use them properly with the Portal gun, Chaos grapple, aircraft or Redeemers.

              Ultimately each mapper will do their own thing, and there will be plenty of maps with or without volume blockers.
              ChaosUT4 maps will have none that get in the way, or none within the reach of the grapple.

              In The previous version of the Chaos mod some of the arena maps featured electric fences to keep players from getting into the audience.
              These were a handy editing aid and player containment, because they are believable and deadly.

              This is a sci-fi game so mappers can feel free to think outside the box while creating their arenas.
              Believable containment can be a leftover of the previous alien race, or spanky new kit fitted by Liandri.
              Who wants a UT99 FOOD FIGHT ?

              Comment


                #8
                Bumping an old thread for what to me is a very relevant issue. Epic is designing beautiful maps of huge sweeping scope and then sealing the gameplay into their predefined areas by using blocking volumes, or not putting collision on static meshes. I understand they do this to save time and increase performance, but it is frustrating to see the old philosophy of designing a map around what areas a player can access be so readily set aside in favor of not accounting for that in the design and just throwing up blocking volumes or putting up static meshes that serve no purpose other than fluff and have no/inaccurate collision. There are other ways of saving time, like less fluff. While this may only be a minor annoyance for those that care about that type of thing in regular UT, it is a serious flaw that will see those maps not be played in some potential user created content. You may say whatever to that, just don't use Epic's maps, but there are a few problems with that. First and foremost Epic is setting an example for all custom mappers in the way they do things. I will be releasing Excessive Overkill for UT4 in a few days, and anyone that tries to get around in it with translocating, rocket jumping, etc will very quickly hate all of Epic's outdoor maps that would otherwise be great for it.

                Please don't cut corners in your map design, Epic, or anyone else, just because it's not part of the gameflow you have in mind. A lot of time and care is spent making a map, I do know, I have a few close to release myself. Consider having in mind when designing maps what's reachable by players, rather than coming back later and putting up invisible walls, not putting collision on static meshes, or putting up invisible walls because you haven't put collision on static meshes.... That said, there is certainly a place for blocking volumes, but personally I draw the line when it is an area I should be able to actually get up onto or over.
                Last edited by Remdale; 05-21-2016, 01:56 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Remdale View Post
                  Bumping an old thread for what to me is a very relevant issue. Epic is designing beautiful maps of huge sweeping scope and then sealing the gameplay into their predefined areas by using blocking volumes, or not putting collision on static meshes. I understand they do this to save time and increase performance, but it is frustrating to see the old philosophy of designing a map around what areas a player can access be so readily set aside in favor of not accounting for that in the design and just throwing up blocking volumes or putting up static meshes that serve no purpose other than fluff and have no/inaccurate collision. There are other ways of saving time, like less fluff. While this may only be a minor annoyance for those that care about that type of thing in regular UT, it is a serious flaw that will see those maps not be played in some potential user created content. You may say whatever to that, just don't use Epic's maps, but there are a few problems with that. First and foremost Epic is setting an example for all custom mappers in the way they do things. I will be releasing Excessive Overkill for UT4 in a few days, and anyone that tries to get around in it with translocating, rocket jumping, etc will very quickly hate all of Epic's outdoor maps that would otherwise be great for it.

                  Please don't cut corners in your map design, Epic, or anyone else, just because it's not part of the gameflow you have in mind. A lot of time and care is spent making a map, I do know, I have a few close to release myself. Consider having in mind when designing maps what's reachable by players, rather than coming back later and putting up invisible walls, not putting collision on static meshes, or putting up invisible walls because you haven't put collision on static meshes.... That said, there is certainly a place for blocking volumes, but personally I draw the line when it is an area I should be able to actually get up onto or over.
                  Yes, but, there shall always be those who add the mutators or modifiers so they can fly as high as they want to with a simple backslash command.

                  It's not like you can solve this completely, unless every level/map is inside a box underground or underwater - and even then you got gravity modifiers for w/e jollies people want.

                  I think a mapper will just build something with the insane idea that people are grown ups and figure out where the edge of the map is - tbh the only concern is vertical, and if you put endless blocking volume to some fantastic height with 100% block on them, it's not like anyone can do diddly except waste ammo.
                  Maps:

                  DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                  DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell View Post
                    Yes, but, there shall always be those who add the mutators or modifiers so they can fly as high as they want to with a simple backslash command.

                    It's not like you can solve this completely, unless every level/map is inside a box underground or underwater - and even then you got gravity modifiers for w/e jollies people want.

                    I think a mapper will just build something with the insane idea that people are grown ups and figure out where the edge of the map is - tbh the only concern is vertical, and if you put endless blocking volume to some fantastic height with 100% block on them, it's not like anyone can do diddly except waste ammo.
                    You're missing the crux of the matter in this thread and being a bit rude, to put it nicely. I already said blocking volumes have a time and a place, my grievance is with them being put up as barriers to keep you from heights and crossings you can see and should be able to reach. Not ceilings multiple stories high, not the box walls of the map.

                    You took an example of gameplay altering mutators and put it on the same level as players using the cheat fly command. I don't think I need to comment on that. I will say though, if any of you remember Strangelove in UT99, think of how frustrating it would be with all the blocking volumes thrown up everywhere in some maps as invisible ceilings and walls in UT4. And you imply that I'm being childish because I have made an argument against invisible walls and ceilings being put up in any areas that don't fit a mapper's idea of where the gameplay should flow. Well, that was just like, my opinion, man. *shakes head*

                    To give a few examples, Titan's Pass. The walls above the gates to the bases have an invisible wall far shorter than the ceilings around it, the flagrooms have low blocking volumes for ceilings that could easily be higher if collision were given to a few low overhead structural beams, vertical series of beams have blocking volumes between them instead of collision on them, blocking volumes roll you off perches and ledges.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Remdale View Post
                      You're missing the crux of the matter in this thread and being a bit rude, to put it nicely. I already said blocking volumes have a time and a place, my grievance is with them being put up as barriers to keep you from heights and crossings you can see and should be able to reach. Not ceilings multiple stories high, not the box walls of the map.

                      You took an example of gameplay altering mutators and put it on the same level as players using the cheat fly command. I don't think I need to comment on that. I will say though, if any of you remember Strangelove in UT99, think of how frustrating it would be with all the blocking volumes thrown up everywhere in some maps as invisible ceilings and walls in UT4. And you imply that I'm being childish because I have made an argument against invisible walls and ceilings being put up in any areas that don't fit a mapper's idea of where the gameplay should flow. Well, that was just like, my opinion, man. *shakes head*

                      To give a few examples, Titan's Pass. The walls above the gates to the bases have an invisible wall far shorter than the ceilings around it, the flagrooms have low blocking volumes for ceilings that could easily be higher if collision were given to a few low overhead structural beams, vertical series of beams have blocking volumes between them instead of collision on them, blocking volumes roll you off perches and ledges.
                      Sorry, but the argument that just because you are permitted (quite rightly) to have an opinion doesn't make all other opinions invalid, neither does having an opinion make you correct or right. Having an opinion and expressing it does allow and permit anyone to argue your opinion. If you do not want someone to argue, then say nothing and no one can ever argue an opinion that isn't expressed. You would win every single point if you did that, because you would get the first and last word.

                      To clarify: I was not calling anyone childish, especially you. My point was very clear: a mapper will build a map with the notion that no one will try and attempt to abuse the design/limitations of a map, and will concede boundaries. In addition to this, if any weaknesses which could affect gameplay are found, they will be reported to the mapper through and by the community. I see this happening everyday with screenshots and Photoshopped points-of-interest, and you know what? I think it's fandabbydosy to see.

                      It is not the job of the community to find weaknesses in map design and use them to gain an advantage, because that's just not cricket. And blocking volumes act and react in a variety of ways, depending on how the mapper has set them up. If you look at the editor and plop a BV, you can see the breadth of options it has on collision - but one of them stands out:



                      Y'see? The reason you fall off some blocking volumes might be intentional: You are not supposed to do it!

                      Attached Files
                      Maps:

                      DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                      DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell View Post
                        Sorry, but the argument that just because you are permitted (quite rightly) to have an opinion doesn't make all other opinions invalid, neither does having an opinion make you correct or right. Having an opinion and expressing it does allow and permit anyone to argue your opinion. If you do not want someone to argue, then say nothing and no one can ever argue an opinion that isn't expressed. You would win every single point if you did that, because you would get the first and last word.

                        To clarify: I was not calling anyone childish, especially you. My point was very clear: a mapper will build a map with the notion that no one will try and attempt to abuse the design/limitations of a map, and will concede boundaries. In addition to this, if any weaknesses which could affect gameplay are found, they will be reported to the mapper through and by the community. I see this happening everyday with screenshots and Photoshopped points-of-interest, and you know what? I think it's fandabbydosy to see.

                        It is not the job of the community to find weaknesses in map design and use them to gain an advantage, because that's just not cricket. And blocking volumes act and react in a variety of ways, depending on how the mapper has set them up. If you look at the editor and plop a BV, you can see the breadth of options it has on collision - but one of them stands out:



                        Y'see? The reason you fall off some blocking volumes might be intentional: You are not supposed to do it!

                        *facepalm* I was not whining about someone arguing another point of view, I was taking issue with what I felt was the antagonistic tone which you used throughout your reply. Anyway no offense intended, none taken, same to you.

                        Yeah, I know it's not laziness on Epic's part. But whatever the intent is, they are setting the example. The intent is clearly to limit players' options and sharply narrow their paths and positions. It hasn't annoyed me as badly before when there was actually something there, but blocking volumes as invisible walls aren't fun to run into, they're frustrating. I feel like a hamster in an obstacle course on Titan's Pass looking out the glass.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Remdale View Post
                          Yeah, I know it's not laziness on Epic's part. But whatever the intent is, they are setting the example. The intent is clearly to limit players' options and sharply narrow their paths and positions. It hasn't annoyed me as badly before when there was actually something there, but blocking volumes as invisible walls aren't fun to run into, they're frustrating. I feel like a hamster in an obstacle course on Titan's Pass looking out the glass.
                          You could always build your own map, with no blocking volumes as invisible walls. I honestly do give that as an option for you.

                          Epic have given you the meshes and toolset to create a level. You would infact, be using the same ingredients they use - and the community would be there, myself included, to offer feedback and testing for you.

                          Pot a pot of coffee on and like Michael Jordan, just do it.
                          Maps:

                          DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

                          DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell View Post
                            You could always build your own map, with no blocking volumes as invisible walls. I honestly do give that as an option for you.

                            Epic have given you the meshes and toolset to create a level. You would infact, be using the same ingredients they use - and the community would be there, myself included, to offer feedback and testing for you.

                            Pot a pot of coffee on and like Michael Jordan, just do it.
                            Tisk, tisk...~! I said in my first post that I do have a few maps close to release. :-p Of course, since they are my first experience with mapping, they will not be near your level, and I will be glad for any feedback.

                            The issues I've outlined are exactly why I've spent so much time mapping, even though I am also creating a huge work of a mutator - just because mappers are overextending blocking volumes instead of using actual BSP or static meshes!

                            While this may be a valid course for me and I thank you for your encouragement, most people do not have the level of free time to take that course, that much commitment to UT, or the enjoyment of creating things like maps. The purpose of this thread as I saw it is to express distaste in this way of mapping and hopefully encourage some mappers to be more considerate in their placement of blocking volumes. You don't have to say it didn't work on you. -_-

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'm with the next guy on hating invisible walls that shouldn't even be noticed in regular gameplay and being ****** when they are noticed. However, invisible walls HAVE to be there. A map has edges. There are many ways to handle them, but invisible walls are a tried and true method. Ideally they are out of reach for regular gameplay, you either fall to your death or find yourself in some no come back situation like lava or green slime. But just think about the internet for half a second and you'll realise that there is ALWAYS going to be that one person who pushes boundaries. They are always going to find the maps edges and exploits. And they are going to take advantage of them to the detriment of other players. This is where the invisible walls come into play. As a mapper, we need to make sure we close off as much of the map as possible outside of the playable area to ensure its all kept above the board. We try to do this with minimal impact on regular gameplay, through use of the regular things such as maps on the edge of cliffs, or space maps etc.

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