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    Easy method for symmetric map creation?

    Hi guys,

    I am looking into making my first map for UT4, and have decided that I am going to go down the path of a symmetric CTF map. I have built maps in each iteration of UT so far (never get far enough for a full release), and can use the editor in basic ways, but I feel that I am missing a lot of the power that is no doubt provided.

    So I was wondering in the new editor, with all the added bells and whistles, does there exist an easy way to create half of a symmetrical map, and then simply mirror everything, meshes, actors, etc so that I am only actually creating and editing half of the map?Would be even better if there is some real time option, but manual activation would be more than enough to help.

    I have always worked previously by just trying to make things as close as possible on each side, often dragging the same brush over to the other side of the map to make edits to both sides at the same time, so that I didn't forget anything. I feel that this is unlikely to be the best solution, and was hoping that someone with more experience than I may have some tips for stream lining such a concept.
    My maps:

    CTF-DBMBridge: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-CTF-DBMBridge
    Feedback: "Not too bloody shabby" - Me

    #2
    i know it's not what you're asking about but... are you sure you want to make CTF map as your very first thing? that's going to be extremely complex endeavor. i'd suggest biting a smaller chunk at first, and slowly expanding with your future stuff. i have done a lot of creative stuff in various fields, and when i tried to pull off too much at once, i couldn't finish anything. so with UT maps i am taking it slow - first a decent duel map using mostly just epic's assets, next time perhaps with some of my own textures and meshes, and only then a level with effects and all the content done by myself. but that's just my fifty cents.
    PLEASE CHECK MY DUEL MAP >> DM-Central <<

    Comment


      #3
      Copy/paste + rotate works pretty well. There is a mirror bsp feature, but I haven't used it too much. Most of the BSP tools are extremely buggy.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by shdw View Post
        i know it's not what you're asking about but... are you sure you want to make CTF map as your very first thing? that's going to be extremely complex endeavor. i'd suggest biting a smaller chunk at first, and slowly expanding with your future stuff. i have done a lot of creative stuff in various fields, and when i tried to pull off too much at once, i couldn't finish anything. so with UT maps i am taking it slow - first a decent duel map using mostly just epic's assets, next time perhaps with some of my own textures and meshes, and only then a level with effects and all the content done by myself. but that's just my fifty cents.
        It will definitely be the first thing I make in this editor, but as far as level design, I have done numerous things (even a Killing Floor map that is 95% finished). The issue with the maps I usually go for is as you say: too complex a plan with far too much time needed to pull it off. The Killing Floor map has taken well over 100 hours, and largely I am just testing now. But after seeing the way other people have been doing there maps (I have especially been following Raste's Hydraulics map), I realize my old ways of mapping were not scalable. I am now going to focus more on getting the BSP down first, then move onto item placement, balancing, etc. Game mode specifics won;t come in until later, but at this point I am interested in treating it as a large project that I continually expand upon as I learn new things. This first map is already down on paper and is not a complex design, to ensure I keep on track with the important thing: game play. I definitely appreciate the advice though, it only re-enforces the things I have learnt recently.

        I plan on doing the Map design tutorials advertised on the launcher before getting in too deep. Seems like this whole project is very well documented.

        Originally posted by cafe View Post
        Copy/paste + rotate works pretty well. There is a mirror bsp feature, but I haven't used it too much. Most of the BSP tools are extremely buggy.
        Thanks for these tips, I guess I will have to see how the mirror BSP works and go from there. If it is no good, I will just have to do as you suggest, and copy and paste everything. For my design I actually won't need a rotate in most cases, rather a direct mirror, so it might just come down to redoing some bits and pieces if another solution does not exist.
        My maps:

        CTF-DBMBridge: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-CTF-DBMBridge
        Feedback: "Not too bloody shabby" - Me

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by DolphinBuffMan View Post
          I plan on doing the Map design tutorials advertised on the launcher before getting in too deep. Seems like this whole project is very well documented.
          i find these map design tutorials pretty crappy tbh. my advice to you would be to actually go with the UDK tutorial, most of the stuff is similar enough and it's explained a lot better: http://download.udk.com/tutorials/us...ple_level.zipl. the rest can be found in documentation or with a bit of googling.
          PLEASE CHECK MY DUEL MAP >> DM-Central <<

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by shdw View Post
            i find these map design tutorials pretty crappy tbh. my advice to you would be to actually go with the UDK tutorial, most of the stuff is similar enough and it's explained a lot better: http://download.udk.com/tutorials/us...ple_level.zipl. the rest can be found in documentation or with a bit of googling.
            Ah, that looks like it is going to be quite helpful. Cheers for the link!
            My maps:

            CTF-DBMBridge: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-CTF-DBMBridge
            Feedback: "Not too bloody shabby" - Me

            Comment


              #7
              some stuff is outdated (especially when it comes to lightning) but the BSP part is really thorough and useful. i used that to get into UT4 mapping myself. hopefully it helps you too.
              PLEASE CHECK MY DUEL MAP >> DM-Central <<

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by DolphinBuffMan View Post
                Thanks for these tips, I guess I will have to see how the mirror BSP works and go from there. If it is no good, I will just have to do as you suggest, and copy and paste everything. For my design I actually won't need a rotate in most cases, rather a direct mirror, so it might just come down to redoing some bits and pieces if another solution does not exist.
                Your results may vary with this, but you can copy + paste and then instead of rotating, just set the axis you want to mirror on to a negative value. For example, if you had a mesh or brush you wanted to mirror on the Y axis that was scaled at 1x1x1, you can change the scale to 1x-1x1.

                For performing large-scale operations, there is also a transform option which I have only used a few times, but I believe it offers the option to mirror on an axis as well.

                Be aware that if you are attempting to copy and paste a large number of objects, you will encounter performance issues. With just BSP it shouldn't be an issue, but with CTF-Buried, I was mirroring 8000+ actors, with a huge number of lights, meshes, decals, etc, and I was getting about one frame every 20 seconds on what is normally considered a powerful computer. I still think it saved time overall to copy and rotate in my case, but it took me a few hours to get everything copied and aligned, and even then it wasn't perfect.

                Comment


                  #9
                  just swipe across everything in side or front view to select, then hold down ALT and drag off a copy of what you've built. Drag all that copy to the other end of the map and rotate it.

                  done.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    On the CTF tutorial on this website, it shows you how to create the mirrored side.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks for the replies everyone. As nasty pointed out, they actually cover this in the tutorial, so my fault for not going through that first. I have actually found that as Cafe said, the BSP tools are rather buggy, and there really isn't much point selecting everything and trying to rotate or mirror, as each selected component seems to behave differently when the transform is applied. I read somewhere they are working on BSP 2.0, so hopefully that will bring some love to the system.
                      My maps:

                      CTF-DBMBridge: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-CTF-DBMBridge
                      Feedback: "Not too bloody shabby" - Me

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by DolphinBuffMan View Post
                        Thanks for the replies everyone. As nasty pointed out, they actually cover this in the tutorial, so my fault for not going through that first. I have actually found that as Cafe said, the BSP tools are rather buggy, and there really isn't much point selecting everything and trying to rotate or mirror, as each selected component seems to behave differently when the transform is applied. I read somewhere they are working on BSP 2.0, so hopefully that will bring some love to the system.

                        current editor has broken the material alignment, but before that the only problem i'd have with material alignment on copied/rotated bsp's would be on the outside faces of stairs, everything else would be fine.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The easiest is to create half your map with BSP, then select it all, copy, paste, and then with the copied BSP: right click on the pivot point -> Transform -> choose your symmetry axis. Finally you can adjust it by moving the whole half you just mirrored.

                          Piece of advice: if you intend to finish this map, know it's a lot more work than you can expect it to be right now, and therefore make sure you create a map that you like. Start with a map only if you are ready to spend hundreds of hours on it
                          RASTE IN PEACE !
                          Maps: DM-Hydraulics | DM-Affliction
                          Weapon: Redeemer

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Raste View Post
                            Piece of advice: if you intend to finish this map, know it's a lot more work than you can expect it to be right now, and therefore make sure you create a map that you like. Start with a map only if you are ready to spend hundreds of hours on it
                            Absolutely, maps take so long if you want it to be at publishing quality. A lot of the previous maps I have done simply were BSP with some texturing to not make it look completely awful, and were only really used by my friends and I at LAN's, as the quality was nowhere near high enough to put out publicly.

                            This one I am coming at from a very different approach, using a lot of the techniques you have as they seem to be the accepted way of doing things, and have very good results. Overall the complexity of the level will not be high, I am going for a style very heavily influencing the low poly competitive maps from UT3, as I believe the simplicity had an elegance to it. I would be surprised if it took me more than 20 hours to get the BSP all done ready for the community to test but from that point, I have no idea how things will play out.

                            Thanks for the advice, I will take it in on board.
                            My maps:

                            CTF-DBMBridge: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...-CTF-DBMBridge
                            Feedback: "Not too bloody shabby" - Me

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