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BSP Level Creation - Pixel perfect or there abouts?

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    BSP Level Creation - Pixel perfect or there abouts?

    75 views on the Unreal Engine Forums, but no answers.....hoping some answers may come here.

    I'm currently creating a BSP layout of a map idea, for UT, and have noticed that some of my BSP's are a few pixels out - particularly on irregular angled shapes where I can't snap to the grid.

    My question is does a BSP layout need to be pixel perfect, or can it be very close to accurate?
    Will it cause issues, if not accurate (by a few pixels), when replacing BSP's with Meshes? Issues when texturing?
    If it needs to be perfectly aligned, is there a way to snap one BSP to another?

    Any recommendations really appreciated - I'm new to using UE4, and frustrations are real!

    Please let me know whether I've asked a daft question, or whether it doesn't make sense - concerns me that it didn't get a response.

    Thanks
    Brussells

    #2
    Originally posted by Brussells View Post
    75 views on the Unreal Engine Forums, but no answers.....hoping some answers may come here.

    I'm currently creating a BSP layout of a map idea, for UT, and have noticed that some of my BSP's are a few pixels out - particularly on irregular angled shapes where I can't snap to the grid.

    1: My question is does a BSP layout need to be pixel perfect, or can it be very close to accurate?
    2: Will it cause issues, if not accurate (by a few pixels), when replacing BSP's with Meshes? Issues when texturing?
    3: If it needs to be perfectly aligned, is there a way to snap one BSP to another?

    Any recommendations really appreciated - I'm new to using UE4, and frustrations are real!

    Please let me know whether I've asked a daft question, or whether it doesn't make sense - concerns me that it didn't get a response.

    Thanks
    Brussells
    The BSP tool in UE4 is quite possibly the worst ever created.

    There is a special place in hell for the people that signed it off as a good thing. Seriously, the door is next to the toilets where there is no paper or cubicles, just a pit of **** from all the minions of Beelzebub going back to the beginning of the universe.

    You got so many BSP tools on the market and yet, Epic said this is good? I still can't believe it even exists, I really can't. They have also shelved their own GEO 2.0 tool until a decent design document can be written. I think the primary reason they don't know what they are going to do about it, is largely that their texture tool and their brushes align textures for the UV unwrap from the geometry which their tool creates for brushes. I don't know, but you hear some stuff on the forums.

    You got Radiant, hammer, trenchboom ét all using really cheap and cheerful, but extremely effective and efficient systems, yet Epic gave their new engine this....thing.

    Grr, onto your questions.

    1: It can be close, but it can open a door to another dimension where demon spawns come through and devour noobs when you cook the map.
    2: Not really, meshes are immune to the problems of the BSP's, yet as they are flipped to blocking volumes, it can cause the same problems as (1).
    3: You can merge them, join them, but ultimately sticking to 5-10-50-100 and NOT using BSP cylinders is normally the rule.

    All in, it's just a very basic and problematic white-boxing tool, not really a brush tool for geometry that can be used in the final design.

    Oh, and if you go above 500 surfaces, it has a tendency to crash or break, or just take 10 minutes to move something.

    We might get GEO 2.0 in version 5 of the Unreal Engine....or maybe 6.

    Had a bad day with brushes and saw this post....

    I must make thousands of iterations a day, this tool makes it take twice if not five times longer than it needs to be.
    Maps:

    DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

    DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you Mitch for an amusing and informative response

      I'm sensing some pain and anguish.....we're here for you, and the support group meets at 19:00 in the Church Hall.

      Thanks for the hints and tips on how I can get the BSP's to align, as best as possible. Interesting that you say don't use cylinders.....I'm trying to use a Hexagonal Cylinder, and the 45 degree sides are where I'm trying to align other BSPs to. I'll try, as suggested, merging/joining but if all else fails I'll get it as close as possible. The alignment we're talking about here is only a couple of pixels worth of alignment, and shouldn't spawn any demons, or open the gates to hell! I'll be sure to play test (ALOT), and ensure it doesn't break the layout, and then once onto the stage of Meshes, it'll be accurate

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Brussells View Post
        .....I'm trying to use a Hexagonal Cylinder, and the 45 degree sides are where I'm trying to align other BSPs to....
        There's the problem right there.

        Hexagons have 60 degree of angle, not 45. This is where and when you get issues as tessellation is very difficult, as you will need to have the following top down configurations to get them to snap to a BSP grid:

        http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/tess/grids.htm

        Also, the cylinder tool does not use a perfectly equal proportion based on a grid, but circumference - as far as I can tell. I know it uses an 'outer radius' as a calc, and this is the problem as radius is part of Pi which is inherently non-equal to a grid.

        My recommendation to you would be to use the pen tool and create a hexagonal shape by hand.

        Doing this will yield mathematically pleasing results for a grid, as you are drawing it to the grid.
        Maps:

        DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

        DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Mitch Mitchell View Post
          My recommendation to you would be to use the pen tool and create a hexagonal shape by hand.

          Doing this will yield mathematically pleasing results for a grid, as you are drawing it to the grid.
          QFT

          Pen tool is your friend, get to know it well!

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks for the advice - Will be sure to do as suggested to yield a more grid accurate shape to work with. Interesting point too RE: Radius calculated cylinder not being accurate. Good to know, and I'm learning

            Will see how it goes from now on, and hopefully I can get ahead now. Will hopefully then get something onto the Work In Progress section, and get my first build under my belt.

            Really appreciate the help.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Brussells View Post
              Interesting point too RE: Radius calculated cylinder not being accurate. Good to know, and I'm learning
              I'm just thinking of 3.14159265359 not being a rational number, if memory serves. Squares have rational dimensions on grids, but calculating circumference from a radius involves Pi, and you will always have issues with a space which is partitioned using binary.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning

              The two systems simply conflict mathematically, logistically and topologically.

              This is just part of my ever-deepening concern regarding the brush tool Epic gave us. The inability to fundamentally see perfectly simple issues with a geometry tool are just shocking.
              Maps:

              DM-PSi ; DM-Genku ; DM-Untold Storage ; DM-Station (WIP) ; DM-HeatRay Physx (WIP)

              DM/TSD-Formidable (WIP)

              Comment


                #8
                I remember Source didn't handle off-grid very well because the map file format formed brushes out of their planar vectors with low precision. Certain odd shapes were impossible to retain even when the vertices were on the grid. Actually, I could probably write a short list of things that made Hammer an awful tool.


                The main hazard with Unreal Engine's BSP is that bsp holes are easy to make. I'm guessing they're caused mainly by convex brushes (i.e. stairs), so avoid those unless you set their solidity to semi-solid (which is still solid as far as gameplay is concerned). Setting an additive brush's solidity to semi-solid removes any chance the brush will cause cuts in geometry, which should prevent BSP holes entirely. This is also useful for cylinders and other high-detail brushwork.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I noticed that BSP verts going off-grid when you mirror or rotate brush, but didn't manually set pitot to grid (automatic pivot may be centered off-grid sometimes). And even it's hard to detect — only when you zoom in and see line 2mm off grid. I didn't find a way to fix those rogue brushes, So I just delete them and remake. Never forget to set pivot manually when you mirror or rotate brushes. Avoid using cylinder. If you want cylinder, just extrude 2 walls from box and then weld top and bottom.

                  Also, very useful hotkey that you can bind, "Set as Pivot Offset", so it does not reset every time you deselect brush. Very often automatically set brush pivots in completely random places, even other end of map. I recommend put pivot at bottom left vertex instead of center, because its eaiser to rotate, scale and mirror that way.

                  Also, if you need rotated brush, try not to rotate it. Move verts manually with arrow keys instead.
                  Last edited by nе_skaju; 03-23-2016, 02:37 PM. Reason: Set as Pivot Offset
                  My map: CTF-MarketCrossing (WIP)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You know there are 4 windows to work on grid? Why you doing it manually? Try to get something to wall, its so easy with grids to draw then doing in maually in "main" edit mode. Look at old quake map maker or doom i think its all grids.

                    Comment

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