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    [OFFICIAL] Chill Discussion

    Now that DM-Chill is meshed and out for you guys, it's time to make the official discussion thread for it!


    #2
    Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post
    The meshed final version of DM-Chill looks really good aesthetically. But it is really noise for gameplay. The reflections of the wet/ice grounds and the falling snow + wind. Some areas asre really dark and others are really bright (additionally the exposure and eye adaption makes it worse). If a shell map is also created to playtest everything regarding lightning etc., I would say Chill really differs from its shell map. Looking forward to what the competitive scene is saying, I actually don't mind visually good looking maps and DM is all about fun, but from a Showdown perspective, they likely prefer a little less noisy map. That's my feedback to far from the very first steps in the new map, only regarding the map not everything else like brighter skins and visual clarity in general.
    Originally posted by joellll View Post
    [...]
    Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post
    Strange to me as lighting, shadows and texture variety and all that visual clarity are really gameplay oriented and since Lightmass is used (bounced off light), shell maps are also tested how light affets these area and whether the basic layout has to change somehow (like removing walls, adding windows, which can also be used to shoot through, etc.). If I compare Chill's shell to its meshed version, I would also prefer spectating/playing the shell map as it is less distracting. Other than that problem, I really like the look. The general problem I have with the high quality is a generic problem which exists in all games nowadays. For some players even UT2004 or UT3 was too much in that regards, but I really liked the visually enhanded maps in UT3. But since the maps were dark in its tone overall, it made everyhting else stand out which is different to Chill. I could think of a Chill version which is actually chill and not hot'n'living. Less brown colored walls, more ice/snow, no direct lightin (of torches), more indirect lighting, dusty rooms with light beams. THe overall tone would be the same one as the shell map, icy blue-ish white to grey.

    From the visual standpoint "how good looking can a map be", the bar has been set another time if not raised.
    PS: A admin/mod could move posts to a different thread, IIRC that's possible with vbulletin.
    Last edited by RattleSN4K3; 03-10-2016, 09:25 PM. Reason: Double quote fixed
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      #3
      Loaded the level and was fooling around in flyby. It look gorgeous!

      But when I was spectating this beauty, I found some moving ropes which could stay static imho simply because the place where they're located isn't in the play view, so the cool aspect of looking at moving stuff isn't really noticeable and they aren't well aligned nor attached or pass trough wood beam.

      Click image for larger version

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      The meshing is really great as long as the new assets. The music is awesome too

      Great job!!!
      Stevie's corner Maps, DM-Akar A1, DM-Aryth, DM-Aly, CTF-Infiltrate, DM-Delta Links, All UT4 CTF custom maps, All UT4 remakes, UE4 links (guide, tut), UE4 resources, Tools and resources

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        #4
        Guess I'll repost my video here:

        MAKE SURE YOU WATCH IN FULL SCREEN FULL RESOLUTION:



        1) I see odd graphical behavior with the snow in the first spot in the video. It looks like a low-resolution .gif messing up. Just go in-game and you'll see for yourself.

        2) The second spot looks like a texture has stretch marks, and the corner looks a little unnatural. Maybe just put a little snow pile there.

        3) It's hard to see from the video, but the behavior of the snow and the wall is odd. Looks like a low-quality video transition. Maybe it's programmed to do that on purpose, but maybe it isn't.

        4) The reflection behavior is a little strange here in this corner.


        Other than that, it's kind of obvious that the sound is totally bonked all throughout the level. Everyone I played with in pubs said that it almost constantly sounds like underwater torpedos. There are threshholds around the map where I can trigger the sound distortion by walking over an invisible line, just like I can do in decktest. Whatever strange effect you guys have for warping the sound, just get rid of it before GDCS, and try to figure out the bugs after that.

        Also the visibility is a little poor. The character models accept too much world light, which becomes a problem when SO many of the character models are either white, grey, or black.


        Except for the sound, these things are only "issues" because the map is so close to "perfection". It's like crysis all over again, where I'd go around and jsut gawk at how good things look. The difference here is that I have a tiny arena to play in 100x over and over, instead of a big ol' world where I can more easily miss tiny little issues. There's no doubt that it's an amazing looking map, it runs pretty well, and I look forward to playing on it a whole bunch. I hope that other mappers use the assets as well!!
        ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
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          #5
          Well, it was the best (or I would say the only) 2v2 competitive map. Now it lacks of visual clarity in every corner, even with brightskins it's barely playable and the sound bugs really often. We (my clan) were really excited to try it but we decided to not even finish a match on it. Nice showcase, nothing more

          Comment


            #6
            I play on 60 FPS when not in heavy action (FPS lock on 60) with my weak laptop 2,4 Ghz dual Pentium, Radeon 8750M and 8GB RAM. Really nice result compared to CTF-TitanPass.

            Comment


              #7
              I would like to bring up my concerns and suggestions about the overall visual philosophy of UT in this thread, since Chill embodies them well. Please note that this is not a criticism of the job you've done on this level in any way. But we need to start talking about where all this is going to go in the bigger picture.

              Chill is a beautiful map, and pretty well optimized so far. Nobody's complaining about that. But the same concerns exist as with TitanPass, where people just feel it's not going to be playable for competition. Personally? I don't care about that, but when you're creating the impression through events and efforts that UT will be competitively viable, and yet the focus is on "visually stunning" and not messing with the realism and lighting of the characters, it should be obvious that something has to give.

              Zaccubus said he had to try for half an hour just to land a combo for the promo vid. For whatever reason, the crosshair gets washed out. And BigFatErik brought up a valid point about how char models appear still in not only this, but other maps.

              "The character models accept too much world light, which becomes a problem when SO many of the character models are either white, grey, or black."
              Of course, this is true of DM primarily and there's no real good way around this when your design philosophy for the game is "realism". While I'm not necessarily telling you to change it, perhaps there are other things you could try. I really appreciate what Jim and maybe others have done to increase player vis in team modes. But somehow, we need even more clever solutions without ruining the art.

              Here is my primary suggestion: Focus your next efforts on a level design set oriented to the theme of "super-clean futuristic arena". Neutral colors, nearly ZERO actual detail texture, no needlessly complex mesh shapes in gameplay areas, such as statues. Now you may ask "didn't we already do this with the Outpost set?" and the answer would be no. Even this is not clean enough for what I am suggesting and the reason I am suggesting it.

              There can be some super clean official maps in this theme, BUT the bigger purpose would be to encourage the competitive community to create their own versions of Chill, Titan Pass or their own maps, which both look professional and to the standard you want to present visually, but also at a level they consider playable. The casuals and media can enjoy the main versions and your gorgeous art in pub play.

              The final strategy here is that such a set could be used to create a few simplified beginner maps, to be added to beginner hubs.
              Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 03-10-2016, 07:09 PM.

              UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                I would like to bring up my concerns and suggestions about the overall visual philosophy of UT in this thread, since Chill embodies them well. Please note that this is not a criticism of the job you've done on this level in any way. But we need to start talking about where all this is going to go in the bigger picture.

                Chill is a beautiful map, and pretty well optimized so far. Nobody's complaining about that. But the same concerns exist as with TitanPass, where people just feel it's not going to be playable for competition. Personally? I don't care about that, but when you're creating the impression through events and efforts that UT will be competitively viable, and yet the focus is on "visually stunning" and not messing with the realism and lighting of the characters, it should be obvious that something has to give.

                Zaccubus said he had to try for half an hour just to land a combo for the promo vid. For whatever reason, the crosshair gets washed out. And BigFatErik brought up a valid point about how char models appear still in not only this, but other maps.



                Of course, this is true of DM primarily and there's no real good way around this when your design philosophy for the game is "realism". While I'm not necessarily telling you to change it, perhaps there are other things you could try. I really appreciate what Jim and maybe others have done to increase player vis in team modes. But somehow, we need even more clever solutions without ruining the art.

                Here is my primary suggestion: Focus your next efforts on a level design set oriented to the theme of "super-clean futuristic arena". Neutral colors, nearly ZERO actual detail texture, no needlessly complex mesh shapes in gameplay areas, such as statues. Now you may ask "didn't we already do this with the Outpost set?" and the answer would be no. Even this is not clean enough for what I am suggesting and the reason I am suggesting it.

                There can be some super clean official maps in this theme, BUT the bigger purpose would be to encourage the competitive community to create their own versions of Chill, Titan Pass or their own maps, which both look professional and to the standard you want to present visually, but also at a level they consider playable. The casuals and media can enjoy the main versions and your gorgeous art in pub play.

                The final strategy here is that such a set could be used to create a few simplified beginner maps, to be added to beginner hubs.

                And that right there is why Arena shooters are dead.

                "Get rid of EVERYTHING PRETTY that will attract new players so that the Pros stay!"

                I get that you're looking for a 'best of both worlds' situation where you have different maps for different chaps: But I don't see driving a wedge through the community as a great solution.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by KazeoHin-TechAE View Post
                  And that right there is why Arena shooters are dead.

                  "Get rid of EVERYTHING PRETTY that will attract new players so that the Pros stay!"
                  It doesn't sound like you read my post at all.

                  There is no way to keep the current design philosophy for this game, and still cater to competitives. That is my main point. Something has to give. Either they need to go beyond their comfort zone and compromise in some respect with art, or abandon the idea that UT will ever be some huge competitive game.

                  Nowhere did I ever mention "getting rid of" anything. Simply to figure out what they really want most, and go with that with no apologies, rather than trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                    It doesn't sound like you read my post at all.

                    There is no way to keep the current design philosophy for this game, and still cater to competitives. That is my main point. Something has to give. Either they need to go beyond their comfort zone and compromise in some respect with art, or abandon the idea that UT will ever be some huge competitive game.

                    Nowhere did I ever mention "getting rid of" anything. Simply to figure out what they really want most, and go with that with no apologies, rather than trying to have their cake and eat it too.
                    Okay, maybe I was a bit harsh: sorry about that. But I have a hard time believing UT will benefit in ANY way in trying to cater to yesterday's pros. Omelette, eggs: you get the idea. Its 2016 now and if Rocket League can find a competitive community, UT should have no issues; yeah, it might not be the same names on the scoreboards, but better to have a successful new game than a faithful, 'for the oldschool' flop. UT needs to be a GOOD GAME, and leave behind anything else: and by nature of it being a GOOD GAME, it will create a new competitive community, as thats what draws the crowds: no spectators want to watch Pros play a game that spectators don't enjoy playing.

                    UT's hardcore community is always looking back. UT and Epic need to look forward. You can't wrap up a 1997 arena shooter in 2016 graphics and expect a hit. As I said before: UT needs to DEFINE the arena shooter, not BE DEFINED by it.

                    Edit: To be a bit more forward: visual clarity is essential, but I find the idea absurd that we need to have planar, highly simplified level art to cater to what pros from previous UT games have come to prefer. That's how you create a game that is completely detached from what REAL PLAYERS want. That's a theme I see that rubs me the wrong way, and your post wasn't necessarily wrong or even against the best interests of all players: but I can't help but feel I need to voice my opinion any time I hear 'but pros!' as an excuse to dumb-down any aspect of UT.
                    Last edited by KazeoHin-TechAE; 03-10-2016, 07:48 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Well that's just something you've got to work on then, I suppose.

                      I don't mean "planar" even. Just as clean as possible, while still feeling real in some way. Obviously we don't want a set that looks like BSP, otherwise what would be the point. Clean and beautiful, that's all. Like the IKEA building block set of sci-fi shooters, if you will. I don't see anything wrong with that, when you have sets for just about everything else, but none of which explicitly feel like they're made for the purpose of a telecasted bloodsport. They don't feel like "arenas". Perhaps this helps you understand better.

                      UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                        Here is my primary suggestion: Focus your next efforts on a level design set oriented to the theme of "super-clean futuristic arena". Neutral colors, nearly ZERO actual detail texture, no needlessly complex mesh shapes in gameplay areas, such as statues. Now you may ask "didn't we already do this with the Outpost set?" and the answer would be no. Even this is not clean enough for what I am suggesting and the reason I am suggesting it.

                        There can be some super clean official maps in this theme, BUT the bigger purpose would be to encourage the competitive community to create their own versions of Chill, Titan Pass or their own maps, which both look professional and to the standard you want to present visually, but also at a level they consider playable. The casuals and media can enjoy the main versions and your gorgeous art in pub play.

                        The final strategy here is that such a set could be used to create a few simplified beginner maps, to be added to beginner hubs.
                        The problem with making an official map a "super-clean one with ZERO detail texture" is it's going to set a precedent and drive the direction of the art style in a different direction. The community will take those assets and follow suit and mesh their maps to be simplistic too. I honestly don't like that groupthink of the pro side in the community, who have the best vocal representation, is driving the conversation in the community about visual clarity when it's an art/technical problem to solve. I see the people that are willing to give weapon changes a few weeks to get used to them but then when it comes to map visuals they jump on them immediately and act as if there is nothing to get accustomed to as if they're not playing raw map shells the majority of the time and that's what they're actually accustomed to.

                        Separate versions of maps for 'pros' and 'casuals' is a horrific idea. Skill is a gradient, not black and white and at what point is a 'casual' supposed to transition from one version to the other as they get better at the game? I can't think of a worse cause of disconnect in the community than dividing the community between two map pools like that. Valve refused to do exactly that with CS:GO when pros wanted 'their' version of Mirage to be used in tournaments over the official version.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          There were tons of very pretty maps in UT3 but the maps that were the most popular were made by Noob_Zaibot. While they weren't as visually impressive as some maps, they looked fine and were fun as he!!. I was always a casual player that leaned towards pretty maps and spam fests, but zaibot struck the perfect balance between competitive and casual. Now, I'd rather play "not so pretty" maps that are fun, give great frame rates, and download quickly.

                          It's possible to create the right balance, but it takes a lot of skill, as well as some compromise to try and suppress the overly artful tendencies that some highly skilled mappers have

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Commonly, community level designers mix and match. I don't think everyone wants ugly/simple, just playable and practical. You cannot argue that the direction of the art style hasn't already gone heavily in a direction that is practically the antithesis of competitive play or practical playability, and therein lays the problem. All I'm advocating is a little further flexibility than we currently have. Rock and stone, stone and wood, wood and metal. It's hard to read. Even the concept of looking beautiful requires contrasts sometimes.

                            That said, I don't mean to drag this thread off-topic or create a huge argument about it. My suggestion is to the devs, not to you. If you don't like it, don't comment on it.
                            Last edited by HenrikRyosa; 03-10-2016, 08:15 PM.

                            UT4 modding discussion: irc.globalgamers.net #UTModders
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                              #15
                              Originally posted by HenrikRyosa View Post
                              You cannot argue that the direction of the art style hasn't already gone heavily in a direction that is practically the antithesis of competitive play,
                              Actually, you can. It's the antithesis of YESTERDAY's competitive play, but this is a NEW GAME. Competitions come in all forms. Hell, you can find basket weaving competitions, moustache growing competitions...

                              Don't think for a nanosecond that you can somehow focus on what people will find competitive.

                              Players blend into environments? Well, that means the 'better players' will have better target acquisition skills.

                              "But target acquisition is not part of..."

                              Shut up. it WASN'T part of the completive scene IN THE PAST. It's Today now. As long as the game is GOOD and target acquisition is fair and fun, I couldn't give a bother.


                              Good games have big communities.

                              Big communities spawn competitive players

                              Competitive players create the competitive scene.

                              It does not work in reverse.

                              Want to have a big competitive scene, want to have a game competitive players will enjoy? Cater to make a good game and nothing else.

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