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[Map] DM-Peak [New Version 20180311]

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    #31
    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
    Of course I played it, my opinion isnt going to change on that it's easy mode and Peak only in name with general level design but the mood is gone and the bite is gone. In particular, it's the flow of the map that makes it so easy mode.

    ChongLee makes what Steve Polge call "porous" maps. In that you can go anywhere, anytime and there's no real sense of specific action in terms of level design control in what happens in certain areas of the map.

    The belt area has basically zero risk and you can get to it from about 4 different ways both inside and out, compare that to the high risk bottleneck it used to be over a death pit and there's no way to say it's not easy-mode. This same sort of feeling is all over the rest of the map. At no point is there any tension of moving around on the outer wooden walkways because you can just hop in a window that was never there before. Same goes for the boots, boots used to be a high risk high reward thing, now you barely spend a thought on carefully navigating the beam. Then there's the top roof which is no longer a roof and is just weird, where the Amp used to be now it's berserk and you can peg people off it or go into yet more windows. It makes sense that it's this way with the second tower being so easy to get to the roof instead of needing the boots via the dangerous beam.

    No area is a real threat, and they all feel pretty samey in overall feel and flow. The incredibly easy portal to the Redeemer just further strengthens this, in the original map there was a high risk to get the best reward of the map (amp) but theres no such thing on Chong's Peak. No bottlenecks, or high risk-rewards every area connects to another with complete ease, the dangerous walkways are kiddie versions of themselves (wider = much easier). There's also wooden planks that even smooth out the 90 degree corners on the edges making it even more easy and there's no real risk. The many jump-pads just push the porous nature even more, and there's no real commitment to go somewhere in the map when you can change your mind at any time.

    It's a well made map, Chong is a great mapper but it's too porous and isn't really Peak.
    That's your opinion then, and looking at the general opinions in this thread it seems to be a minority.

    I'd prefer it if Chong would just keep at what he's doing, he may be able to make DM-Peak more popular than ever before because it's simply more playable. Making things too hard isn't always a good thing... It's a matter of taste, and usually a niche for the players that just like a lot of punishment, those who want it extra hardcore. I like it hard, but this version somehow was a more fun experience to me. Not everybody likes accidentally dodging down, or being thrown off the map every time you spawn. Keep in mind that the current weapons have more knockback than most weapons in UT99 had, the addition of the stinger alt fire makes it even worse, so making pathways wider also accounts for that.

    This version even fixes one thing old Peak simply did wrong, for instance the addition of windows in the belt room. In old Peak you could simply get a shock rifle in the belt room and spam combos in the general direction of the two entrances that were mashed together and easily win the map like that if you were persistent enough, especially when playing against bots. Easy monster kills due to fresh spawns running there to grab a gun, or people coming down from the flak. In Chong's version, you have to watch your *** or somebody will come from behind and kill you.
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      #32
      Originally posted by Archer6621 View Post
      That's your opinion then, and looking at the general opinions in this thread it seems to be a minority.

      I'd prefer it if Chong would just keep at what he's doing, he may be able to make DM-Peak more popular than ever before because it's simply more playable. Making things too hard isn't always a good thing... It's a matter of taste, and usually a niche for the players that just like a lot of punishment, those who want it extra hardcore. I like it hard, but this version somehow was a more fun experience to me. Not everybody likes accidentally dodging down, or being thrown off the map every time you spawn. Keep in mind that the current weapons have more knockback than most weapons in UT99 had, the addition of the stinger alt fire makes it even worse, so making pathways wider also accounts for that.

      This version even fixes one thing old Peak simply did wrong, for instance the addition of windows in the belt room. In old Peak you could simply get a shock rifle in the belt room and spam combos in the general direction of the two entrances that were mashed together and easily win the map like that if you were persistent enough, especially when playing against bots. Easy monster kills due to fresh spawns running there to grab a gun, or people coming down from the flak. In Chong's version, you have to watch your *** or somebody will come from behind and kill you.
      I agree with both you and FirebornForm. My objective is to make this map more fun, more playable. But thanks to FirebornForm, I realized some things were over done. If you compare the latest version 20150215 to the previous one, you will see what I mean.

      And you totally understood me on one of the reason why I added the windows for the belt room Then thanks to FirebornForm I know it is also important to make sure that walkway is dangerous enough so it won't be overkill.

      Thank you, and to FirebornForm!
      Keep the constructive comments coming.
      [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

      My stuff: @ Youtube | @ Small site | @ My blog

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        #33









        Made some pictures to show the changes.
        [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

        My stuff: @ Youtube | @ Small site | @ My blog

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          #34
          Would be nice if we could get this and your Deck remake running on a public server for some playtests.

          Great work.

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            #35
            Originally posted by nes710 View Post
            Would be nice if we could get this and your Deck remake running on a public server for some playtests.

            Great work.
            I agree to this.

            Comment


              #36
              Wow nice improvements, now i see the map more balanced at all. I like it a lot, this version rocks!

              Comment


                #37
                Wow Chong you've been busy reworking this map. I'm really glad that my feedback didn't throw a gear into your designs, I feel like this version is immensely better than the previous in terms of nailing the spirit of Peak albeit still a faster and more flowy version.

                Changing the second tower area to open up to everyone instead of just people with boots was a great move and much more of it gets used as a result. However, bare in mind that you made both of the best rewards of the map (deemer and invis) much easier to get anytime anyone really wants in comparison to the UT99 peak, getting the amp took a lot more effort. Having 2 very powerful powerups right next to eachother by just dropping off the ledge seems probably too much. The original never had the deemer so it's tricky to balance the map with one now. The removed portal to the deemer is much welcomed.

                I still feel like the walkways are too wide for my personal tastes and a ton of the walkways are they're 1-2 thirds wider than they should be but I can live with it. If I were to suggest some things still, the belt area is improved but I still feel like it's too easy to get and get out. I would probably make the belt outside walkway even more narrow so there's a danger in coming from the outside windows. Being able to contest the belt from both outdoors and indoors is a good change but still may be too easy to grab it and run.

                Since the belt used to be a bottleneck so maybe you can make the belt area deeper into the floor and have the windows be 1 way drop unless you did a trick jump. This sort of thing could be used on the belt itself, deep enough into the pit that you can't just jump out with ease. I'm aware that it worked that way in the original but there was no wall dodge in UT99 so it's something to think about demanding more skill from the player.

                I'm not sure about the invis on the map but I would still like to see an actual roof to where there's a gaping hole down to the next level right now. The original roof of peak was where the amp was hidden and players could sneak attack while on top. If this was a problem with laming people repeatedly from the roof then I think your version with the second tower removes that worry about constant peekaboo roof antics. It also helped sell the castle theme, being ontop of the "peak" of the castle was a nice feeling.

                If you want to mirror the original's feel to get the new best reward on the map (deemer), then you could make it only accessible on the second tower roof and required to do hammerjump/trick jump outside or boots just like in Peak UT99 amp. You have it close to being on the second roof, but it's not quite there. A lift jump for the redeemer is quite trivial, but maybe a hammerjump while lift jump is more worth the reward of that extra effort.
                Last edited by FirebornForm; 02-26-2015, 07:10 AM.

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                  #38
                  Okay to be completely honest, I'm not a fan of the additional tower that's been added... it loses some of the classic feel, though I do like a few of the changes you made like the jump pad where spiral staircase was above belt, and the health packs @ the lower level being elevated to where you either have to wall dodge to them, or dodge up the ramp to them.

                  I hate the windows by shield belt... there should only be one way in, and one way out to belt, hence risk vs reward, once you're in there, you need to be fully committed to get the belt or die trying. The windows being large enough for a player to get though makes it seem less risky to go for belt, like you can just be passing by, and "Oh hey, shield belt, THX!" and be on your way.

                  I also am not a fan of adding a redeemer, I like the way the original map was designed with amp up top, and you needed boots to get there, but a lot of people are not fond of that gameplay mechanic, so perhaps an alternate root to the amp would be good... The second tower seems a bit much though.
                  Trust me, I'm a doctor.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by FirebornForm View Post
                    Wow Chong you've been busy reworking this map. I'm really glad that my feedback didn't throw a gear into your designs, I feel like this version is immensely better than the previous in terms of nailing the spirit of Peak albeit still a faster and more flowy version.

                    Changing the second tower area to open up to everyone instead of just people with boots was a great move and much more of it gets used as a result. However, bare in mind that you made both of the best rewards of the map (deemer and invis) much easier to get anytime anyone really wants in comparison to the UT99 peak, getting the amp took a lot more effort. Having 2 very powerful powerups right next to eachother by just dropping off the ledge seems probably too much. The original never had the deemer so it's tricky to balance the map with one now. The removed portal to the deemer is much welcomed.

                    I still feel like the walkways are too wide for my personal tastes and a ton of the walkways are they're 1-2 thirds wider than they should be but I can live with it. If I were to suggest some things still, the belt area is improved but I still feel like it's too easy to get and get out. I would probably make the belt outside walkway even more narrow so there's a danger in coming from the outside windows. Being able to contest the belt from both outdoors and indoors is a good change but still may be too easy to grab it and run.

                    Since the belt used to be a bottleneck so maybe you can make the belt area deeper into the floor and have the windows be 1 way drop unless you did a trick jump. This sort of thing could be used on the belt itself, deep enough into the pit that you can't just jump out with ease. I'm aware that it worked that way in the original but there was no wall dodge in UT99 so it's something to think about demanding more skill from the player.

                    I'm not sure about the invis on the map but I would still like to see an actual roof to where there's a gaping hole down to the next level right now. The original roof of peak was where the amp was hidden and players could sneak attack while on top. If this was a problem with laming people repeatedly from the roof then I think your version with the second tower removes that worry about constant peekaboo roof antics. It also helped sell the castle theme, being ontop of the "peak" of the castle was a nice feeling.

                    If you want to mirror the original's feel to get the new best reward on the map (deemer), then you could make it only accessible on the second tower roof and required to do hammerjump/trick jump outside or boots just like in Peak UT99 amp. You have it close to being on the second roof, but it's not quite there. A lift jump for the redeemer is quite trivial, but maybe a hammerjump while lift jump is more worth the reward of that extra effort.

                    Yeah you are right about the accessibility of both the invisibility and the redeemer. I kind feel that too. I will definitely do something about that.

                    Walkways, hmm, I will see. This is something tricky. I am personally fine with narrower walkways because I am quite familiar with the layout as I practiced the movement in the map quite a lot. But I just hope it won't be too difficult for the beginners.

                    The belt area, yes I am also thinking about the window being a one way drop but I am hesitate coz that means you will have to leave that room by using the door, which makes the bottom corridor (the one close to the flak stairs in the original version) the bottleneck, which I didn't like.
                    So I guess, I will try make that walkway even narrower, especially the part around the windows should be very dangerous, and difficult to use. Maybe also block another window (but you can still shoot through) so there is only one window left.

                    I thought about a deeper belt position, but I didn't do it because I want to support bots. They are just not so capable. And of course, accessible for newbie players.

                    About that roof, my intention is so that it is no more a hidden and kinda safe place. You don't intend to stay there as it is really narrow and can be attacked from below. But you are right about that feeling. And since recently I am doing a lot about closing up holes/windows/doors, I may get back the roof as well.
                    And because there is the tower, the roof could no more be a safe place. The current design was done before the tower was there.
                    As for the invisibility, I initially wanted to see if it works like DM-Morpheus but so far it doesn't. It feels better in Morpheus because that map is fatter, gives you more space to react to someone invisible.

                    Thanks a lot! FirebornForm, your comments are really helpful. Sometimes I just feel it's difficult to choose between options. There are always cons and pros. I need to know how others value those options so I can make choices.

                    I will try to make a new version in a few days.


                    Originally posted by Dr.ToxicVenom View Post
                    Okay to be completely honest, I'm not a fan of the additional tower that's been added... it loses some of the classic feel, though I do like a few of the changes you made like the jump pad where spiral staircase was above belt, and the health packs @ the lower level being elevated to where you either have to wall dodge to them, or dodge up the ramp to them.

                    I hate the windows by shield belt... there should only be one way in, and one way out to belt, hence risk vs reward, once you're in there, you need to be fully committed to get the belt or die trying. The windows being large enough for a player to get though makes it seem less risky to go for belt, like you can just be passing by, and "Oh hey, shield belt, THX!" and be on your way.

                    I also am not a fan of adding a redeemer, I like the way the original map was designed with amp up top, and you needed boots to get there, but a lot of people are not fond of that gameplay mechanic, so perhaps an alternate root to the amp would be good... The second tower seems a bit much though.
                    I am about to do another version of the map, a version that is more closer to the original. I am just too busy to start an additional version right away.

                    Thanks for the feedback! It is more clear that the belt area is still not there. I will try to improve that. As for the one way in and out, I didn't like it in the original version for the same reason as Archer6621 commented in his post. But indeed, the feeling of risk and reward was much stronger, that will be my number one objective to achieve in the next update.
                    Last edited by chonglee; 02-27-2015, 01:00 AM.
                    [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

                    My stuff: @ Youtube | @ Small site | @ My blog

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                      #40
                      Regarding the wooden walkways, it's just my own opinion that they're too wide but many people like that about your map version. I think what bothers me about it is that you've double nerfed it where they are wide and also have safety corners all over the map. I would be alright with safety corners if it were more narrow, and vise versa no safety corners if it stays wide but having both of them seems like there's very little danger in navigating it. In the original Peak not every part of the wooden pathways are walk-offs and they had crude wooden railings to break up the monotony and also added more risk to skillfully navigating the boots area where you might get caught on a beam or get forced into almost a corridor feeling. It comes back to the dangerous and tense feel of the original that just opening everything up looses.

                      I'll keep offering more feedback as it progresses but I have much less 'complaints' this time around. I would get rid of the indoor jump pad though, when approaching it I instantly thought it was going to be a staircase and to turn the corner and find a jump pad was kind of a head scratcher. It doesn't really add anything to the map being there with such a tiny hop upward so I'd just make it a staircase like it seemed in the first place.

                      I'm not sure how talented you are at blueprint scripting in levels but since you added a second large tower and stuck the redeemer on it I would try to que the players in for someone going for the redeemer in some form or fashion. You can hang out and hide a bit in the second tower and if the redeemer is on the roof of the 2nd tower then it would have similar hide and seek of the original Peak. If you want to avoid this, I would add a bell to the tower that sounds off when players are near the redeemer. That should take care of the hide and seek and may bring some balance to the redeemer which otherwise feels kind of out of place in the new peak.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Actually I agree with you about the width, the more I play this map the more I feel it is just too safe, and it is not just the walkways, overall the map is a bit too fat. I am doing some size modification right now which will probably take much more time to do than just resize the walkway width.

                        As for the jumppad in that room, the idea is to make that corner less hidden. That corner is right above the straight stairs which connects to the belt room. I figure there should be less stealth. By adding a jumppad, you can't stay in the middle, either you go up one level, or you stay down. And you make noise when use it. Of course a lift could probably do the same, just it will somehow suggest a lift jump opportunity which I don't intend to give, but this might not be a strong reason to use a pad instead.

                        To cue in sounds interesting. There could be several options, use sound effects or something but I will try to solve the layout issue first. A cue is more like the icing on the cake.

                        Thank you very much! Really appreciate your detailed comments!
                        [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

                        My stuff: @ Youtube | @ Small site | @ My blog

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                          #42
                          hi chong! long time didnt see this thread, it seems you did some changes! I didn't played your map cos I've not still installed the ut launcher.

                          By the way check your mail there is great news about UE4!
                          Last edited by darksonny; 03-03-2015, 11:32 AM.

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                            #43
                            Darksonny I've replied your mail. Hope you do well.


                            I finished a new version of this map.

                            Some big changes. Basically I reshaped every single BSP brush to reduce the map scale by maybe 10-15% or more. The reason behind this is, when I tried to reduce the walkway width, it didn't feel right. The walkways started to be narrow but too long then I realized it is the whole scale. There was this another proof that the scale was a little bit too big. It was the height from the front courtyard to the vest room walkway. And also with the boots you couldn't get to the udamage roof directly.
                            So I decided to reduce the map scale and by this I can try to improve on:
                            1) The overall rhythm. It felt slow sometimes in the previous version because it is a big map given all the playable walkways. By reducing the size, especially the building size, the overall walkway length can be reduced too.
                            2) Vertical accessibility. With boots you can now reach the udamage roof like what you did in the ut99 peak. The tower area is also benefit from this.
                            3) Get the tower closer so it connects to the castle even more.

                            I also rebuilt the belt area.

                            Now you will either use that L shape to get it or wall dodge. No matter what you do, you are pretty predictable so you better cover the door. The door, or doors to that room, is now more close to the original. This way the SR can't be seen directly from the boots walkway side. And from the double hp room you can't see the boots walkway.
                            The window close to the belt is now blocked. Another window is connected to a single wood beam so it is far dangerous to stay there.

                            The udamage roof is now closed, but with a structure you can see through.

                            The redeemer room is gone. It is now a bell tower and inside the mega health room you can look up and see the bell and the redeemer sits on it. Go grab it will hit the bell to make a big noise. Not really making sense but it's cool to hear something. The sound is replicated so it could be the cue.
                            To go up there you have 2 options, one involves the lift jump, mid air boots jump, one or two hammer jump depends on how you combine the jumps. Another is you have to go around to the front side to use a lift, a very slow one, so slow that you better do this when enemies are inside rooms.

                            Also the jumppad between the tower and the castle is now more outside, so that it can be used from multiple locations, and it looks better.

                            And other changes like the playerstarts, the vials, etc.
                            Last edited by chonglee; 03-09-2015, 12:57 PM.
                            [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

                            My stuff: @ Youtube | @ Small site | @ My blog

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                              #44
                              mmm Im confused I didn't reveive any email from you, I thought you were very busy dunno I will check again my email box :scratch:

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Well you've been busy with the map as always Chong. I'll be totally honest I'm not sure about the scale of the map. Right now this is more true to form for the original Peak but I feel like you're going to be loosing all of the people who liked the wider more combat-friendly version. I would be content with a wider castle but with some of the outside walkways thin as a compromise. Thin and tight everything just makes people hate the map again, but I liked the original's scale so this is just an assumption.

                                Onto your changes to the map besides the overall scale as a whole. I think a lot of it is good, definitely feels like Peak. The new changes to the walkways are dangerous and risky and the L shape to the belt is cool too.

                                I like the amp being an actual roof again for sure, I notice you have a grate instead of a solid roof, I might suggest playing with the idea of a trapdoor give away on the roof grate. That might do a couple things, after it opens and drops someone down it would slam shut. A metal grate slamming shut is a very good sound que for where someone is on the map, Peak has some other sound ques like the wooden elevators. The other thing a trapdoor grate at the amp would do is let you drop down to the room below like you liked in the original gaping hole roof =p

                                On the redeemer, I see you got the sound bell que working. Cool! I think getting the redeemer itself though is too much of a departure from combat, basically it takes too long to get the redeemer and go back to fighting. You're either slowly climbing the tower and riding a painfully slow elevator to the topish area or you have to impact jump multiple times with the boots. Meanwhile you're not fighting, that's not really true to UT's pacing if you know what I mean. My suggestion would be making the redeemer easier to grab and get out.

                                Instead of blocking off the redeemer window with bars I would open the window up, that way you still have to go out of the way for the redeemer but not so much that you're out of combat off in your own world. For a sound que I would have the bell ring as long as someone is in the redeemer room, not just when it's grabbed (to avoid camping by the bell tower windows.). At most height I think the redeemer should be reachable with elejump+boots+hammer I don't like the idea that the maximum possible gain is still not enough. I would tone it back and probably lower the redeemer and the window to get it. Maybe something like elejump+hammer jump or elejump+boots or boots+ele but not all 3.

                                One thing that I'll just throw out there, Peak never had jump-pads and seeing a bright glowing thing breaks the immersion of Peak's original mood. In the beginning you were addicted to jumppads but there's pretty much only one of them now. I think what you're doing with the jumppad by the second tower could easily be made into an elevator instead. For kicks I would try that and see how it fares. Maybe even have it be a slower moving diagonal elevator platform to break up the monotony of vertical only ones?

                                I also noticed that you have an area in the second tower that's almost able to be rolled under where the flak is. Might be interesting to see how the map flows with being able to roll under the broken bar, but it might be better off with it closed chokepoint as well so it's just an idea.

                                Keep up the good work.
                                Last edited by FirebornForm; 03-20-2015, 09:53 AM.

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