[Map][Remake][WIP] DM-Deck [New Version 20180305]

[Daedalvs Design]

Inoxx? The original and only one?

I'm sorry but no.
I saw that there was someone else who had the same surname as me but I'm not the original.
Sorry

[chonglee]

Interesting new routes, would love to test the gameplay to find out how they hold up in gameplay scenarios. The route from the lift jump to the upper platform is very interesting in particular but might open up the navigational advantage of experienced players (read: Those with a grasp of the movement and a knowledge of the map) too much in comparison to new players. But that would have to be tested. Along the same road but more drastic (and imho more problematic) I find the "windows" from the top platform along the longer side of the main hall down to the hallway with the crates.
Deck always had the characteristic of allowing players to evade enemies for several seconds. The routes were limited and one could easily be trapped and intercepted, but if in need it was possible to evade the line of sight at least for some tens of seconds. I see no such opportunity in your version of the map as a broken line of sight can much quicker be regained. For a map to work in a death match with more than two players there have to be spots with at most two angles of attack, otherwise you are constantly subject to potentially frustrating situations of getting killed by someone not on your radar. This is not to say that such situations should not be possible, but they should be limited to a few spots in the map where you can chose to expose yourself for the benefit of some item of interest.

Also with as many connections between the rooms the gameplay will probably be much more hectic. I appreciate that, but it changes the context of four parts of the map that possibly only work with slower gameplay: The ramps. Three of them in the main room and one above the small goo pit near the elevators. These ramps are harder to navigate than horizontal ground and no one would walk them upwards if they didn't have to. In UT99 and UT2k4 this was the big catch and part of the balancing of the map as you absolutely had to climb these ramps in order to get to important points. In your version of the map there are alternative ways that are less exposed and much quicker (the lift jump for example). This essentially makes the two steep ramps in the main hall useless. The middle ramp still makes sense but is a more dangerous part now than it was before. The small ramp above the goo pit is less exposed but still out of balance with the more hectic style that your map seems to favor. I would try to replace it with a jump pad (or two successive jump pads for a less predictable air movement).
Of cause all this is just theory, it might work better than I expect. But if you find that the two steep ramps in the main hall are barely ever used you might want to re-think the other access paths to the high ground.

Looking forward to more updates.

Good points,
For the lift to the sniper platform thing, I personally doubt if there should be a lift, I added it just so that I can see the feedback, in the previous version, there is no lift. It smells problematic.
For the window where you can see the vials by the boxes, my simple intention is I don't like the fact that player can just go into that tunnel and evade back to the SR and the amp, That said, I do realize that it create another issue that you can camp and ambush too comfortably. And another thing is for now I have not yet put enough thought into that flak tunnel yet, somehow I want to see something more interesting, different than the UT3 version.
Personally I don't think for DM with more than 2 players there have to be ten seconds line of sight occlusion sort of thing, because there are lots of good examples of popular DM maps, not only in UT, but also in Quake, show the opposite.
And you are right, exposed area usually should always for benefits, that is exactly why I opened up the window in the first place, but how far it should go, I need good feedback like yours

About the bridges, yeah I thought about that before adding the new alternative paths, I even thought about my UT2K4 remake for this map, TheDeck2004, one conclusion is, in TheDeck2004, the alternative paths were too safe and comfortable compared to the main room, so I want to avoid that this time. But it is tricky because the main room is just this exposed, and to add alternative paths without reducing the usefulness of the bridges is really a tough task. So this actually led me to 2 modifications: 1) The window where you can see the vials, more benefits right in front of the bridge, 2) Pillars to provide a little bit for covers.
But it is tricky.
Yes, thanks for your feedback, now I feel more faith in my original plan that is not to have a lift next to the sniper platform.

About the ramp above the goo pit, I haven't even started to do anything for it, in the next few days, I hope.

Thank you very much!

[chonglee]

Seems like cool adaptations for a FFA/TDM version of the map but kinda too big for duel. I'm still glad to see someone already tackling the most iconic map of the franchise. Keep us updated, good work.

My target is to make the scale close to UT3 version, UT99 version is actually bigger, but to make the right scale, I need to wait to see what the real game will be like. I mean, the metrics, the dodge distance, jump height, these things. When we can touch the playable game, I will try to figure out the scale that feels right. And I am pretty sure that requires a lot of feedback from playtest.

I like most of the changes except the jump from the SR elevators to the Sniper Platform. The strongest side of the map is the SR pit and the whole strategy is about controlling that side. Making it more versatile could just unbalanced things further.
The idea of fighting that pit from above is very interesting though. But even that's an easy Shock Combo target I'm sure you'd want to be at against a better stacked player anyway.

I agree, actually I have been thinking about this issue for a few days. That kinda made me to move the double damage to the roof, and close to the sniper platform, I opened up a window where you can oversee the vials of the flak tunnel, on the thigh pad area.
And I increased the height of the box next to the SR so no way to jump to it by double jump, nor wall dodging jump (in OT), if you want to jump there, you need to go to the bridge, which is exposed to the sniper platform.

Thank you for pointing out this.

I never liked how later versions of Deck 16 always loop the upper hallway back around to the crates/amp. It takes the risk out of going for that Flak.

I don't like that too, that's why I move the amp to the roof. Not sure if it is really a good idea though.

I'm sorry but this is just terrible :/ the changes you made (the lift jump to top and the navigation where amp is) are just bad. Instead of wasting your time creating another deck 16 clone (slightly altered) which there will no doubt be many of... why dont you do something productive and create your own map.

Thanks for your feedback, this is just a prototype for the layout.
And, don't know if you noticed, I also made a UT2K4 version 10 years ago, in which there were some big changes which I believe made that map one of the most different Deck back at that time.

But doing remake is struggling, one side you don't want to change the layout too much because many players they just want the original thing, and gameplay wise if the original one is working, no point to fix it. But on the other side, as a mapper, I can tell you it is not interesting to just copy the original.
The only reason why I am still doing this, (trust me if it is not for OT, I will never think of I will do the remake thing once again after this many years), is simply after I started it, I want to finish it.

Oh, by the way, I am also working on new maps.

Nemmy, in case you haven't noticed the map was originally designed for 'Open Tournament' which has been discontinued due to Epics UT announcement.
Obviously it's correct that he used his base model for the upcoming UT instead of laying his work to waste, in which he put time and efforts, saying that's not productive is not fair at all.
It's not that he just made it in the last couple of days.
Good job Chong for your great work

Thank you, you understand me!

[Ca$hFlo]

Oo Amazing!!!

[van Kuss]

Amazing !
But the elevator near the Udamage ... shame. I think you should remove this elevator, it's too easy.

Inoxx? The original and only one?

[Daedalvs Design]

Amazing !
But the elevator near the Udamage ... shame. I think you should remove this elevator, it's too easy.

[frøsty]

Loved the new navigation route from flak cannon to sniper nest.
Also liked the opportunity to actually look outside: I know it's just a wip but having an "open" Deck might be interesting, I'd keep the flak area transparent to the outside, not really sure about the rocket area.

[lamarpavel]

Interesting new routes, would love to test the gameplay to find out how they hold up in gameplay scenarios. The route from the lift jump to the upper platform is very interesting in particular but might open up the navigational advantage of experienced players (read: Those with a grasp of the movement and a knowledge of the map) too much in comparison to new players. But that would have to be tested. Along the same road but more drastic (and imho more problematic) I find the "windows" from the top platform along the longer side of the main hall down to the hallway with the crates.
Deck always had the characteristic of allowing players to evade enemies for several seconds. The routes were limited and one could easily be trapped and intercepted, but if in need it was possible to evade the line of sight at least for some tens of seconds. I see no such opportunity in your version of the map as a broken line of sight can much quicker be regained. For a map to work in a death match with more than two players there have to be spots with at most two angles of attack, otherwise you are constantly subject to potentially frustrating situations of getting killed by someone not on your radar. This is not to say that such situations should not be possible, but they should be limited to a few spots in the map where you can chose to expose yourself for the benefit of some item of interest.

Also with as many connections between the rooms the gameplay will probably be much more hectic. I appreciate that, but it changes the context of four parts of the map that possibly only work with slower gameplay: The ramps. Three of them in the main room and one above the small goo pit near the elevators. These ramps are harder to navigate than horizontal ground and no one would walk them upwards if they didn't have to. In UT99 and UT2k4 this was the big catch and part of the balancing of the map as you absolutely had to climb these ramps in order to get to important points. In your version of the map there are alternative ways that are less exposed and much quicker (the lift jump for example). This essentially makes the two steep ramps in the main hall useless. The middle ramp still makes sense but is a more dangerous part now than it was before. The small ramp above the goo pit is less exposed but still out of balance with the more hectic style that your map seems to favor. I would try to replace it with a jump pad (or two successive jump pads for a less predictable air movement).
Of cause all this is just theory, it might work better than I expect. But if you find that the two steep ramps in the main hall are barely ever used you might want to re-think the other access paths to the high ground.

Looking forward to more updates.

[Complete]

Nemmy, in case you haven't noticed the map was originally designed for 'Open Tournament' which has been discontinued due to Epics UT announcement.
Obviously it's correct that he used his base model for the upcoming UT instead of laying his work to waste, in which he put time and efforts, saying that's not productive is not fair at all.
It's not that he just made it in the last couple of days.
Good job Chong for your great work

[Nemmy]

I'm sorry but this is just terrible :/ the changes you made (the lift jump to top and the navigation where amp is) are just bad. Instead of wasting your time creating another deck 16 clone (slightly altered) which there will no doubt be many of... why dont you do something productive and create your own map.

[Diode]

I never liked how later versions of Deck 16 always loop the upper hallway back around to the crates/amp. It takes the risk out of going for that Flak.

[csYouKnow]

Looks awesome! good job

[U77r0lolOlol0rd]

Wow, that was fast.

[luauDesign]

I like most of the changes except the jump from the SR elevators to the Sniper Platform. The strongest side of the map is the SR pit and the whole strategy is about controlling that side. Making it more versatile could just unbalanced things further.

The idea of fighting that pit from above is very interesting though. But even that's an easy Shock Combo target I'm sure you'd want to be at against a better stacked player anyway.

[khxmz]

Seems like cool adaptations for a FFA/TDM version of the map but kinda too big for duel. I'm still glad to see someone already tackling the most iconic map of the franchise. Keep us updated, good work.