[Map][Remake][WIP] DM-Deck [New Version 20180305]

[chonglee]

Here's a video showing some typical tactics and moves used in the lifts area

There isn't a need for another way up to bio as people can hammer jump or dodge from the window to the ramp, balance is good

People also get up high a lot using boots

In 1v1/2v2 action focuses around armor and belt, but in 4v4 you see the other areas at the back likew the flak positions being used

Thanks for the nice video. This actually reminds me that I need to check more videos about the different generations of this map. Could be very interesting and inspiring.
Probably no need for a lift jump to the bio but the jump could be for other purpose. Can't tell right now.

Really pleased to see a map being made where the maker is concentrating on getting the space right before doing an art pass. Very nice work!

Thanks, it is just to make sure when i start the art work, i don't need to worry about modifying the layout, sometimes this is tricky because if you only think about gameplay, you end up with a layout that is really problematic for graphic, so still I am also thinking about visual in my mind, just not doing it.

[chonglee]

Checked out the new video and shots... As usual, it looks great, although I don't agree with some of the changes... Just minor stuff, though:
- I'm not keen on the triple double jump to the Amp. It may be OK from a balance point of view but I'm expecting that to be too flow-stopping in practise. The jumpad was fine IMO (if the speed isn't too high, it will make you vulnerable enough), with the crates maybe as an alternate route. However, I think the ramp that leads to the amp should be transparent, or even something you can shoot through, as it looks a bit like a hiding spot right now.
- I'm also unsure of the JumpBoots route from the last pic, it may turn into an abused camping spot aswell.
- As for the 3rd pic, keep an eye on the width of the platform. I think you should always be able to kill whoever is there with a shombo from the Minigun->Shock walkway. The top zone may not be a place to reach if you just go with the map's flow, but IMO it has always been interesting enough.
- Finally, I don't see the point of the 2 first pics. If you just want the window to be used to cover the tiny vials area with so many limitations, then I think it's better to just close it altogether as it may end up frustrating players rather than being of any help. IMO it's safe to give that window a decent view range (not too much, though), as long as you are also able to shombo the window from a mid distance in the Flak hallway-ramp zone, which you can't right now...

Honestly i don't like the triple double jump and the jump pad, i will have to try other solutions.
Yup, I thought about making it transparent, but hesitate because i feel the amp is so obvious that when it is spawned, you risk being hit by shock combo or flak or RL grenade or bio when you try to touch it. So maybe not make the whole ramp transparent, just partly, but this could be changed depends on future playtest.
Yeah the jumpboots route is risky indeed, let me think more about it, if no way to improve it, i will just close the ceiling.
I compared the width of the thighpad platform with UT3 deck, and it looks that part is about the same, which means the bio side is narrower, but maybe the crate could be bigger, let me do some tests.
TH, the idea is just to make sure the ceiling is low enough so splash damage can hurt you a lot, right now it is possible to shock combo the window from the flak ramp, actually from both direction, but the ceiling above that ramp, could be modified to make it more comfortable to use combo or flak. My target is to make it an interesting and comfortable window but dangerous at the same time, I will keep tuning until find the sweet spot.
Thanks a lot!

[luauDesign]

The triple jump to amp back room doesn't look very interesting really. I also think it could have a bit more in the risk-vs-reward aspect.

Something like this maybe: http://i.imgur.com/faJSUxc.png

[tigerclaw]

I was a bit concerned about the AMP position too until i saw that you could get to it through mid, so long as you can get to it with boots and hammer jump (in UT99 it's easy to get there using a hammer dodge from the ramps or from the crows nest) then it's fine

UT99 amp on deck is between two positions and you need teamplay for it

AMP on team maps should always be somewhere central that's not easy for either a single person or a single position to control, that's why you'll find the AMP location in locations that need to be boosted to, or in locations away from position areas so that whomever is holding that one corner of the map can't have constant AMPs

Edit:

It'd probably work best if you took the whole back room route via rockets out and had people hammer/boot up to amp instead

better for competitive play that is

[Eduardo "SeeD" Baltazar]

Yes, chonglee, that's what I meant. ;>

[ChrisHolden]

Really enjoy your presentation. Looking forward to what comes of it.

[garfunkel]

Fantastic and impressive attention to detail.

[bpc]

kinda like the artstyle lol. love the light clean look of the placeholder a little bit like portal.

i dont like that u cant let u walljump up, so that area has only 2 ways in which 1 ur a big target.

kinda liked the idea of a connection to the flac canon in some versions.

[scratch]

not bad, it has some UT1 vibe keep up...

[chonglee]

The triple jump to amp back room doesn't look very interesting really. I also think it could have a bit more in the risk-vs-reward aspect.

Something like this maybe: http://i.imgur.com/faJSUxc.png

If I get your idea right, is it a bridge from the bio-thighpad platform to the amp?

I was a bit concerned about the AMP position too until i saw that you could get to it through mid, so long as you can get to it with boots and hammer jump (in UT99 it's easy to get there using a hammer dodge from the ramps or from the crows nest) then it's fine

UT99 amp on deck is between two positions and you need teamplay for it

AMP on team maps should always be somewhere central that's not easy for either a single person or a single position to control, that's why you'll find the AMP location in locations that need to be boosted to, or in locations away from position areas so that whomever is holding that one corner of the map can't have constant AMPs

Edit:

It'd probably work best if you took the whole back room route via rockets out and had people hammer/boot up to amp instead

better for competitive play that is

Yes, locations for powerups like amp should be somewhere vulnerable to different directions, or when one is trying to grab it, the other can intercept at the entrance or exit.
The way I see it for this map, is I hope somehow to bring more combat to the less heated area, for which I am going to upload a heat map to show my opinions. Thus I create this slope path from the RL room to reach the amp, still, you can hammer jump or boots jump to reach it from the main room (but I need the real game to test it).
Another interesting thing is, you can cover or sniping counter attack someone who is on the roof slope from the bio-thighpad walkway, if there is only boost from the main room to reach it, it will be lack of dynamics.
And I am also think maybe, the RL room route can be supervised from the flak area next to the RL corridor, that area looks like the least favorite area of the whole map, so if possible, i try to add some usefulness to it.

Yes, chonglee, that's what I meant. ;>

Now I am confused, that is what?

kinda like the artstyle lol. love the light clean look of the placeholder a little bit like portal.

i dont like that u cant let u walljump up, so that area has only 2 ways in which 1 ur a big target.

kinda liked the idea of a connection to the flac canon in some versions.

Don't take the current look too seriously, it is just layout prototype, not even a finalized basic layout. But hey, I love Portal too, although I am sure that is probably not the style I am going to use for this map.
Which area that makes you a big target that you don't like?

[chonglee]

These 3 days I have been sitting back and thinking than making anything, one thing starts to appear in my head is maybe I could try bring more combat to the areas that are usually less favorite. I feel mostly the combat are around the straight line of the main room: the elevator room --> the jumpboots --> the belt --> the teleporter --> back to the elevator room.
It is something unique but I don't really like it, aesthetically, because when some map areas are not used enough often compared to other areas, for mapper this is something unbalanced. Well, unbalanced is a strong word, so I am a bit exaggerated here, but you know what I mean.
So I made a rough painting to show you the heat map that I feel represent the hot zone and the cold zone of this map. I could be wrong or very wrong, so please correct me if you feel so. I just want to know what's your opinions on this.


The more red, the more combat. I think maybe Epic has this kind of tool to collect playtest data to create heat maps, like what they showed years ago for UE3, but no idea if they are going to use similar tools for this project. But anyway, back to the topic, I think maybe, for example, could add one more 25HP pickup in the flak-bio curvy corridor, somewhere close to that slope, or, maybe replace that bio with the SR, or something else.
For the flak in the upper left corner of the picture, next to the RL corridor, do you really like what it is right now or maybe we can have something improved so that player would like to visit that area more often otherwise why bother to make that area in the first place.

[luauDesign]

Yes, that's a very thin and long bridge from the Pads/Bio to the AMP as it is. Very risky path to take. But I mean that being the only path, Hammer Jumps and Boosts aside.

Well, I'm not a fan of the excessive focus Deck has on the elevator pit, but we have to agree the middle and the pit are also the interesting parts of the map really, even if the reason they're the most used is caused by pickup placement. The rest of the map are utterly boring corridors (talking gameplay not graphics). There's also nothing much to do in those places, as they don't lead anywhere either.

Sadly UT maps have a lot of boring corridors in them, which's awful for an Arena shooter, and then people whine about Quake map remakes in the UT community. But Deck is not bad at all, it's just is an intersting map with some boring parts that are never used. I don't really know how to fix them though, not without decharacterizing it's visuals and gameplay much.

I'm looking at things from a Duel perspective though, so the main problem I see with those spots is that they're simply too far away from the level's heart. They're also dead ends and map corners that don't lead anywhere, which makes them yet more boring and leverages the already bad problem of they're being far away places (for the UT franchise travel speed). So the best way to fix it is to bring them "closer" to the heart of the action, also while give them more viability for strategy usage by the player not controlling the main items.

From all the ideas I came up with so far, the one I like best could only be done using warpzones, something I do not know yet if the engine facilitates or not. But if it's possible (or becomes possible soon) I believe it's bring a much needed fresh life to the less disputed areas of the map. And here it is:



Blue warpzone: The acid bridge with the Flak Cannon would connect with the main acid pit, leading below the Shield Belt, even the two acid/bio pits could be visually connected. This would bring a bit more live to both the Flak Cannon back area of the map, and one of the long borders of the acid pit. Making the path to the Flak Canno feel less like a chore that wastes time and leads nowhere, and giving an extra way out of the map's basement area.

This would also make the Shield Belt even more dangerous, specially when a potential funny/weird scenario happened. This scenario would be the case where the two players, on from the middle of the pit borders or from the Belt depending on the height of the warpzone, and one on the upper Shock Rifle, could see each other in two different places. The player on the upper Shock Rifle area would have a fight advantage over the player picking up the Belt by being able to attack him both from above as it's already possible, and from the right, by looking through the warpzone behind the Flak Cannon, all while having the option to either disengage te combat by running to the Bio Rifle, or to replenish his health in the two packs nearby. Would be quite interesting to see this in a match though.

Green warpzone: This one is less important and doesn't affect direct gameplay as much as the first one, but works as a shortcut to map the map "smaller" to travel through, by connecting the upper Rocket Launcher room with the Sniper/Vials/Flak corridor. For a player not controlling the elevator pit, it's also a good means to be versatile in attacking the stacked player from multiple angles, without having to go around the entire map between one offensive wave and another. From a combat oriented perspective, it's main advantage might be when fighting against the upper Sniper/Pads/Bio platforms, as the player can quickly switch sides to attack from different angles.

Both additions would make the entire map more interesting to visit. I really wish to try something like that for this map.

[tigerclaw]

the back areas around flak aren't used much in duel, they're places you spawn in or retreat to(and get trapped in a little) and are mainly used for the health pickups

The route shown in the top right from shock to flak adds almost nothing to 1v1 play

Once you start getting into 2v2, 4v4 or FFA then the whole map opens up and the corridors are used just as much or more with mods like instagib

Simple changes like a teleporter could be playtested but i'd be wary of making a major change at this point

Almost all DM maps have areas that aren't used during 1v1s, it's not an issue and you'll be hard pressed to fix it without making the map smaller in one way or another

[chonglee]

the back areas around flak aren't used much in duel, they're places you spawn in or retreat to(and get trapped in a little) and are mainly used for the health pickups
The route shown in the top right from shock to flak adds almost nothing to 1v1 play
Once you start getting into 2v2, 4v4 or FFA then the whole map opens up and the corridors are used just as much or more with mods like instagib
Simple changes like a teleporter could be playtested but i'd be wary of making a major change at this point
Almost all DM maps have areas that aren't used during 1v1s, it's not an issue and you'll be hard pressed to fix it without making the map smaller in one way or another

Yes you are right these places are just for health pickups, but actually in duel, even for this purpose, these areas are just wasted. For team modes for sure more areas will be used because every pickups are important. For instagib, it is a totally different story that I don't worry about.
And it is a common sense that DM maps have areas that are wasted somewhat in 1on1, that doesn't solve the problem that what we can do for this map if we try to fix a little bit.
I kinda like the ideas to have more teleporters or portals, because it is usually a way to make fast travel in a big map in games like Quake, it really speed up the rhythm. But I do agree bring in new teleporters are tricky because this thing affects layout situation a lot.
The whole Deck is simply based on the current single teleporter.

[chonglee]

Well, I'm not a fan of the excessive focus Deck has on the elevator pit, but we have to agree the middle and the pit are also the interesting parts of the map really, even if the reason they're the most used is caused by pickup placement. The rest of the map are utterly boring corridors (talking gameplay not graphics). There's also nothing much to do in those places, as they don't lead anywhere either.

See, this is why I wanted to add a back route in the RL corridor to reach the roof, it gives that corridor somewhere to lead to.
Next step I think I am going to try something to make the corridors more interesting. I guess mostly it will be for the team mode, but we will see.

then people whine about Quake map remakes in the UT community

LOL, it is difficult to capture the essence of the original classic Quake maps in a game with different movement system and weaponry philosophy.

the main problem I see with those spots is that they're simply too far away from the level's heart. They're also dead ends and map corners that don't lead anywhere, which makes them yet more boring and leverages the already bad problem of they're being far away places (for the UT franchise travel speed). So the best way to fix it is to bring them "closer" to the heart of the action, also while give them more viability for strategy usage by the player not controlling the main items.

Yes I agree with you on this direction.

Blue warpzone: The acid bridge with the Flak Cannon would connect with the main acid pit, leading below the Shield Belt, even the two acid/bio pits could be visually connected. This would bring a bit more live to both the Flak Cannon back area of the map, and one of the long borders of the acid pit. Making the path to the Flak Canno feel less like a chore that wastes time and leads nowhere, and giving an extra way out of the map's basement area.

This would also make the Shield Belt even more dangerous, specially when a potential funny/weird scenario happened. This scenario would be the case where the two players, on from the middle of the pit borders or from the Belt depending on the height of the warpzone, and one on the upper Shock Rifle, could see each other in two different places. The player on the upper Shock Rifle area would have a fight advantage over the player picking up the Belt by being able to attack him both from above as it's already possible, and from the right, by looking through the warpzone behind the Flak Cannon, all while having the option to either disengage te combat by running to the Bio Rifle, or to replenish his health in the two packs nearby. Would be quite interesting to see this in a match though.

Green warpzone: This one is less important and doesn't affect direct gameplay as much as the first one, but works as a shortcut to map the map "smaller" to travel through, by connecting the upper Rocket Launcher room with the Sniper/Vials/Flak corridor. For a player not controlling the elevator pit, it's also a good means to be versatile in attacking the stacked player from multiple angles, without having to go around the entire map between one offensive wave and another. From a combat oriented perspective, it's main advantage might be when fighting against the upper Sniper/Pads/Bio platforms, as the player can quickly switch sides to attack from different angles.

I agree with you, I added the teleporters from the west RL room to the east flak corridor in my UT2K4 remake for this map, based on similar reasoning.
Warpzone is really cool, if technically we can pull off, I would like to try it.
Not quite sure about the blue warpzone though, because the exit side in the flak room is still boring and I feel mostly the player will just keep using the RL teleporter and go back to the elevators where you have more chances to stack up.
I will think more about this.