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DM-Coma - A015 - UT 0.1.12.1 cook

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  • replied
    In case you folks haven't seen it, the current version is up on ModHubs thanks to raxxy and NATO.

    Be aware it won't show up when starting up a new match. It will show up in the mapvote window popping up once you play a match on any other map. This is how any custom map works on hubs at the moment. Map should get downloaded automatically once chosen.

    I'd also thank to Laambo for setting up the map on his {AW}'s Community Map Test Server. Anyone wanting to set the map on their server, please feel free to do so.

    Also... high five to the folks at #ut4.pl@quakenet for pushing on me to do this release and for their support.

    I would love to hear from people who know the previous version, how do they see the changes done to the current one.
    Last edited by insomnaut; 07-03-2015, 10:21 AM.

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  • replied
    I wanna check this out. it looks great. ill respond with feedback once ive played it

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  • replied
    DM-Coma_A003SE
    - technical - UE4.8 recook
    - gameplay / floorplan - temporarily removed the shortcut added in A002 (blame Flikswich ;D cheers mate!)
    - gameplay - 2 or 3 new playerstarts
    - item placement - 2 x 25 hp at the sniper area moved lower, to the platform directly above the RL
    - item placement - ThighPads moved up in place of that double hp (near sniper rifle)
    - item placement - one 25 hp from ArmorVest's room moved close to the other 25 hp at side so now there are 2 x 25 hp visible up there while looking at the belt area from the shock rifle spot
    - other minor adjustments, ammo pickups, more random materials added

    PAK - DM-Coma_A003SE-WindowsNoEditor

    I haven't been much active recently so it's not as huge update as I was aiming for before. No new visuals I hinted some time ago. Still same old shell, barely touched.

    The new shortcut added in A002 got cut out. Due to the changes in game introduced with latest few builds I wanted to find out how the map would feel this way. Map seems to me faster than it was with march/april versions of UT, so it may be that shortcut is no longer needed. Also Thigh Pads placement got some treatment. Yes, I played a safe card - didn't want to do an earthquake if it's not needed ;]

    Thank you all for the feedback so far. There's definitely more of it to be incorporated soon than the current update holds.
    I am very glad some of you really enjoyed the map. Thank you for putting it on hubs and servers, recording streams, regular plays and all the attention the map has got.

    Please, feel encouraged to speak out what you do not like on the map. It will help a lot making Coma a better map. It will also help to make another one once this shell is done.
    Last edited by insomnaut; 07-07-2015, 05:54 AM.

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  • replied
    Just found out that ALL maps have to be re-cooked/publish under this new build we got today in order to work online! .... I have confirmed this by doing one of my own maps!
    .... don't forget to Re-Name the map with the next version number!

    Hit me up when you have the new .pak ready to go!

    Thank you!

    Laambo

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Laambo View Post
    This map is now in rotation over at -=AW=- -==Community Map Test Server==- #1
    Thank you very much Laambo

    Originally posted by effects69 View Post
    I won a game tonight on the map. So yes, I like it hehhee, It has a really nice game flow man! But maybe try adding some kind of land marks so we can remember better where placements are. Even some simple markings or something. I know we are all pretty much stuck for textures right now though.

    All in all, it's a really great and fun map to play!
    Thanks for kind words, I'm glad you liked it.
    Yeah, there are two main issues I work on before posting a new update - land marks to have areas better recognizable, and item placement, so I hope a new version will resolve the identity thing on the map

    Originally posted by Fartuess View Post
    Siemasz Charon. Fajna mapa
    Cześć, kopę lat A siemam byle jak, ale jeszcze wierzgam ;D

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  • replied
    Siemasz Charon. Fajna mapa

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  • replied
    I won a game tonight on the map. So yes, I like it hehhee, It has a really nice game flow man! But maybe try adding some kind of land marks so we can remember better where placements are. Even some simple markings or something. I know we are all pretty much stuck for textures right now though.

    All in all, it's a really great and fun map to play!

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  • replied
    I had a little run around the map tonight on the server. It has a really nice layout

    Originally posted by Laambo View Post
    This map is now in rotation over at -=AW=- -==Community Map Test Server==- #1 so come check it out and let insomnaut know what you think!


    ...gave it a quick play when testing out redirect and I do have to say the bots work this map very well! ... good job!

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  • replied
    This map is now in rotation over at -=AW=- -==Community Map Test Server==- #1 so come check it out and let insomnaut know what you think!


    ...gave it a quick play when testing out redirect and I do have to say the bots work this map very well! ... good job!

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  • replied
    Hello folks!

    DM-Coma_A003 is available to online play on ModHUB hubs thanks to raxxy!

    I will appreciate if you check it out in 1on1 and tell what you think about a scale, flow, pace, the belt-vest distance, amount of health or whatever else draws your attention.
    It hasn't been done with TDM or FFA in mind, but any thoughts on this are welcomed too.


    I've started the shell from scratch as initial one was a simple conversion, so no update this time, but the next one will be massive. New BSP should give me a lot more freedom on making further changes. Layout will remain mostly the same, with some details changed and more identity given to areas.




    Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
    Looking at that top down view, I immediately thought why not just remove the new passage and swap mini with shield?
    Some cool notes, MoxNix!

    The new passage is not a part of an issue with belt/armor relative placement, as it is above the shortest/quickest route between the armors (the one with a jumppad on the left side of the pic below).



    Mini placed instead of shieldbelt seems like a possibly great idea, but these two shouldn't be swapped as it may make things even worse with the armors issue, as the distance will become clearly too short. I have much work with new BSP, what gives me a lot of time to think If I end up with a new location for a shieldbelt, mini probably will take its place.


    Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
    I also think if you're going to put in a quick shortcut across the middle of a map (just about any map, not only your's) it should be on a lower level, not the highest. That way it's at least a little risky to use it, where if it's up top, about all it does is make control easier with no extra risk.
    Yeah, I agree. It's exactly how it was initially on the map. Shortcut across the middle, in both directions (two hallways crossed), is on a lower level, just as a pic above shows. Just added the one above, not that risky, but I've felt like I need to add it to improve overall navigation and reduce the time needed to spot an opponent. It may not leave you defenseless on the lowest ground like the one below, but lots of attention should always be paid here.


    Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
    Mini is one of the weakest weapons in the game now, unlike in 99 when it was a goto weapon, especially on maps with plenty of midrange combat which this looks like it would have been.
    It's about to change with the latest build Alt-fire projectiles are twice as fast now, hooray ;D


    Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
    Put the shield in the riskier spot, the mini in the safer spot and remove the quick connection to the 100 armor.
    Currently having some serious headaches because of placement So far, it's been brought to my attention, that current belt location is risky in fact and it is potentially good place to break opponent's control in duel. Despite being somewhat open, it doesn't give too many options to grab the belt and leave the area (simply put, there are 3 exits: upper towards the shock rifle, lower to the flak and the one to the mini which is seemingly the safest one). Though, I need to wait and see what players will tell once they play the map on hubs. The more feedback, the better decisions.

    Thank you MoxNix!
    Last edited by insomnaut; 04-11-2015, 12:20 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Charon85 View Post
    You may take a quick look on the armor placement on the top-down screenshot I made (ceilings have been taken away to get a better view):

    Looking at that top down view, I immediately thought why not just remove the new passage and swap mini with shield?

    Mini is one of the weakest weapons in the game now, unlike in 99 when it was a goto weapon, especially on maps with plenty of midrange combat which this looks like it would have been. Put the shield in the riskier spot, the mini in the safer spot and remove the quick connection to the 100 armor.

    I also think if you're going to put in a quick shortcut across the middle of a map (just about any map, not only your's) it should be on a lower level, not the highest. That way it's at least a little risky to use it, where if it's up top, about all it does is make control easier with no extra risk.
    Last edited by MoxNix; 03-28-2015, 08:21 PM.

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  • replied
    Thank you for your feedback. It will definitely keep me busy for a while, figuring out things and trying them
    I'm very glad you had a time to take a look on my map, and even more glad this time was good


    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
    We had a go at this the other day playing FFA with a few people, some feedback from that session (I think this was the version previous to your latest update however, so keep that in mind):
    • Shield and vest placement doesn't feel terribly "iconic" and opposing enough
      • Belt just kind of sits in a corner and IIRC vest is not terribly far away
      • Might be nice to try carving out a bit more interesting locations out for these to make for more compelling fights over those items
    I have to admit, I don't recall playing FFA myself at this before your post, so the very first thing I did after was to play some with bots to check and see it doesn't get completely ridiculous I've always seen it as a 1on1 map and always tested it as so, but some 2on2 and 4on4 shots have been fired too

    I agree armor locations do not feel too iconic. Especially the belt's area may seem a bit trivial and unexpectful, as it basically lacks more significant marks of its actual importance. At this moment I do not see it a location anyone would say about "oh, the belt would fit in here just great", as one may more probably say about the vest's area. I guess, because of that, it might be quite possible in the middle of FFA to simply not realize the belt is even there. I will try to redesign surrounding area slightly or find/create a better place.

    Both belt and vest aren't placed on any tricky spots and are totally easy to get, encouraging to take them aggresively in the middle of fight. The only risk to get them is basically the awareness of the other player in 1on1 play, and it is something I went for - to encourage stepping forward and taking the risk of direct fight, not the risk in name of doing something risky to get an armor. On the other hand, both areas are spaces limited to some significant degree, so I hope the risk factor, though minimized, is still there.

    These two armors are not terribly far away, indeed, but it hadn't been an issue in 1on1 so far, from what I know. It was a concern at first, but I've left it for players to decide back then (UT99 days) and it didn't live up to what they had felt. There's that shortest route between vest and belt, leading through the central jumppad, which is quite fast and in new UT takes a few wall-dodges to quickly get from the one area to another. I should be able to slow it down a bit with a slight slope, will try. I used to think about it in similar way to belt-vest lower routes at Deck. It's quite close, but it's so risky, people tend to not over-use it. I will definitely keep an eye on the issue, but won't be able to gather more info until the map appears on hubs.

    You may take a quick look on the armor placement on the top-down screenshot I made (ceilings have been taken away to get a better view):

    Click image for larger version

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    I will prepare clearer layout-outlines soon.


    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
    • The scale of the map felt a little off (on the large side)
      • I.e. the shock area felt wider that it should seem to be
      • Makes some parts of the map feel a bit slower than I think it was intended to be
    I am extremely curious how the current version would be perceived on the scale. As you wrote, you might see the initial one, with material scaling messed up, what could cheat a bit on perception.
    Shock was moved a little off deliberately to avoid getting too tight on the lowest floor in that area. Not sure if I should fix it anyhow, I didn't want it to be too close to the armor vest. Hopefully dynamics are quite decent in this area.

    On those slower parts - there are some I'm not all that happy about - though some examples would make me more sure I've understood you correctly. The lower parts of the map are the ones lacking dynamics the most for me, like the flak-bio-pads path, the direct RL-flak passage or entire belt-shock route on the lowest level. There are more for sure. Thankfully the map takes huge benefit from new movement and combination of forward-dodge/wall-dodge makes traversing these parts much smoother.

    Also, the belt-sniper route is quite a pace-stopper and flow-breaker. There's a slope/ramp on the right, which was meant to speed things up, though it needs some tweaking right now for sure.
    Now there's also a new upper passage connecting the flak area and the minigun area, I introduced in an update. It allows to skip the belt-area when there's potentially no need to go there, so it makes the traverse around the upper elevations much quicker.


    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
    • There were comments on the map having too many dead ends
      • I don't recall an example myself but maybe that was either perception and/or something you have changed since anyways
    This one is trully a kind of surprise to me. Dead ends may appear close to some lifts when they are up, but I'm not sure if that counts.


    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
    • Even at this stage it would be nice to give some of the areas a more unique feel/identifier
      • Not suggesting to throw a ton of detail around, just minor things here and there (indoor vs outdoor vs sky lights or otherwise identifying things that don't affect gameplay
      • Or throwing around a few more varied materials
    I will try to address this one ASAP, as it should help to learn the map a lot quicker, make players less confused and more focused on actual action.

    I have some ideas to try out that emerged directly after your post. ATM they are definitely not the ones to turn the map on its head, though I hope they will turn out essential.
    Thanks again, it's highly appreciated.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by insomnaut; 03-28-2015, 06:49 PM.

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  • replied
    We had a go at this the other day playing FFA with a few people, some feedback from that session (I think this was the version previous to your latest update however, so keep that in mind):

    • Shield and vest placement doesn't feel terribly "iconic" and opposing enough
      • Belt just kind of sits in a corner and IIRC vest is not terribly far away
      • Might be nice to try carving out a bit more interesting locations out for these to make for more compelling fights over those items

    • The scale of the map felt a little off (on the large side)
      • I.e. the shock area felt wider that it should seem to be
      • Makes some parts of the map feel a bit slower than I think it was intended to be

    • There were comments on the map having too many dead ends
      • I don't recall an example myself but maybe that was either perception and/or something you have changed since anyways

    • Even at this stage it would be nice to give some of the areas a more unique feel/identifier
      • Not suggesting to throw a ton of detail around, just minor things here and there (indoor vs outdoor vs sky lights or otherwise identifying things that don't affect gameplay
      • Or throwing around a few more varied materials


    Overall had a good time, nice job! Looking forward to seeing this evolve, keep it up!

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  • replied
    Quick fix!

    DM-Coma_A003-WindowsNoEditor.pak

    I've just realized navmesh somehow didn't make it to the previous map build and bots were just guarding their respawn area and not picking up any weapon :/
    It's fixed now.


    Originally posted by Seban View Post
    Needs better scaling IMO, coz I feel like a garden gnome in it :< However, wasn't bad in 4v4, but if the scaling was right, it would be more of a duel map or 2v2/3v3 max. Also I believe that it needs to be less super mario in the future and more like outpost 32 - futuristic, unreal, not counter-strike'ish :]
    More massive playtesting would prove the scale being fine or not, so I need to wait patiently while receiving opinions like yours. Thank for you voice.
    All that "super mario" is temporary, with more work it will look hopefully better and better.
    Last edited by insomnaut; 03-25-2015, 06:46 PM.

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  • replied
    UPDATE!

    DM-Coma_A002-WindowsNoEditor.pak

    Change list:
    - gameplay / floorplan - a new shortcut path introduced to improve map navigation (some notes at the bottom of post)
    - gameplay - belt-area lift adjusted to make liftjump/walldodge move to health-vials a bit easier, but not trivial
    - gameplay - biorifle-area / linkgun-area lift slowed down a bit to make direct liftjump/walldodge move to the armor vest a bit easier
    - gameplay - jumppads adjusted for more air control and transport options
    - gameplay - fixed maneuverability around armor vest - nicer elevation side-profile allows a more fluent jumps
    - gameplay - playerstart points adjusted a bit to help identify respawn area (nothing big really, still needs a proper visual guidance)
    - gameplay / technical - texture scale fixed and forced to default to properly reflect the map scale when compared to other maps using same shell materials (editor somehow breaks it during bsp build); should improve overall map scale sensing
    - technical - map blocked from the top using blockall volume
    - technical - some geometry was simplified and reimported; manual BSP fixes (weld+create ftw!)
    - technical - screenshot preview added

    Screenshots to compare - forced default texture scaling is visible; now properly reflects the map scale:



    A new path introduced, making a lot of opportunities (blue wall on pics below)



    Notes about the new passage:

    Being curious how you guys see the map fit for some 1on1 play, thus waiting for more comments about map's size and scale, I've started to explore some ways of improvement, while leaving the scale-downsize as the final solution I try to avoid. Characteristic feature of the map is its center part which is... almost non-existent It makes the most basic traverse being a circle around the lower or the upper part of the map. While that solution easily rewards prediction, on the other side of a coin, it also "punishes" missed-prediction by extending time spent on engaging an opponent and making breaks between shootouts longer and less entertaining. It may lead to low scores on matches between players of defensive attitude - a side effect I would like to minimize.

    What I thought might help, was to introduce a new passage on the upper elevation to shorten the traverse around that part, giving a quicker possibility to spot an enemy. I had some space behind a wall in the middle part, so I decided to subtract a new route, which opened some navigation and firing options, and provided additional tracking/sniping spots. It also allows to skip the belt-area when there's no need to go there. So the idea was to minimize the impact of map size and layout by speeding up a bit the navigation and providing more possibilities for spotting, hearing and hitting an opponent.

    I hope it works as intended and will be grateful to know what you guys do think about this change.
    Last edited by insomnaut; 03-25-2015, 05:25 PM.

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