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    [PROTOTYPE] Asymmetric CTF-Oni WIP

    Heyo!

    I've been working on this in my free time along with the DM-Graveship map. It's an asymmetrical CTF map with a little twist. I put the blue teams flag in a pit ( will probably have a more elegant solution later), so that it cannot be captured. This essentially makes it so that blue is attacking and red is defending. It's a pretty small map too, so it should make for pretty intense matches.

    The map is going to be located in a futuristic neo-urban city setting. I only have the one concept art for now... but it should give a pretty good idea of what I'm going for. It's going to be a very big challenge keeping readability through-out the map, but hopefully I learn some things and I can share it with everyone later. Also, the brushwork is super simple because I am building the meshes and stuff myself, so it faster for me to leave it simple and paint details on top since I am making the concept art anyways. I really like keeping the playable areas super easy to navigate so that players can focus more on strategy and fighting than moving around the map, but we'll see if I made it too simple. Might have to spice it up a bit!

    Would love to get some feedback on this, since it is pretty different from all the other maps out there, I don't have many reference points. I'm very interested in seeing if the one-sided ctf match can work. Thanks!

    I will try to record a video run through soon.
    Added!



    DOWNLOAD
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...wsNoEditor.pak

    The bots work fine in the editor but they have problems in-game for some reason. I will try to have that fixed in the future.









    Last edited by Gooba; 04-01-2015, 08:40 AM.
    Dm-Sand | Idea to Concept Thread

    #2
    niceee!!!!

    Comment


      #3
      Nice idea. From the video I can see you have a fair amount of room corridor room going on here, especially to the left of the red flag; I'd be tempted to open that up onto a two level room. You may also run into bottlenecking around the main red base wall. There are also a few spots where the same weapon bases are very near one another, the redbase rockets for example.

      I'd also be tempted to put a conditional teleporter at the bottom of the blueflag shaft to TP blue players out rather than killing them, kind of sucks to capture the flag and then die.

      Comment


        #4
        This is really cool Gooba.
        I've actually been thinking about doing some sort of one way CTF like this but couldn't quite come up with something yet ^_^.
        Ran around this a bit and here a bit of feedback to add to what NATO already mentioned.
        - I agree with NATO on the weapon placement. Right now it almost seems like only the rocket and sniper were placed with intention while the others were put on there to be there. Here are two screenshots where two shock rifles and two rocket launchers are right next to each other:
        This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version
        This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version

        - I love the theme you're going for and here are a few suggestions for layout tweaks that will still fit in the visual theme but offer up some more interesting maneuvers.
        This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version
        This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version

        - I feel like (and these were ideas I noted down for myself when I was considering doing a single side cap- aCTF map) for this style of all out assault style map where only one side caps, it doesn't really do much to the gameplay to have weapons spread out like you would in a normal CTF map. In fact, I would almost venture to doing something similar to a weapon locker and instead of placing weapons strategically, place powerups, health, vials, ammo etc strategically. Also, this style of map could use some really cool side objectives that either opens up a shortcut for the attacking team (an example is a door that someone has to activate to open). Again, this was my own personal feeling of how a map like this could work and it is a bit more work to get all the systems to work which is why I haven't quite released the shell I have so far, but it's your call ^_^.

        - Finally, as NATO mentioned, and I'm sure you probably thought of this since it's still early, it would be nice to have some sort of teleporter so player who caps flag doesn't die. Also, you could have the pit be a bit wider since in a tight game, some players may just dodge over it or something. If you're worried about the red team being able to grab the flag, you could do some blueprinting to prevent that (an idea is to have a door that only opens to the blue team or a flag carrier - NATO has a tutorial for something like this around these parts somewhere).

        Looking forward to the progress on this.

        cheers.
        MyArtstation
        @jayoplus

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks guys!

          Originally posted by NATO_chrisjm View Post
          Nice idea. From the video I can see you have a fair amount of room corridor room going on here, especially to the left of the red flag; I'd be tempted to open that up onto a two level room. You may also run into bottlenecking around the main red base wall. There are also a few spots where the same weapon bases are very near one another, the redbase rockets for example.

          I'd also be tempted to put a conditional teleporter at the bottom of the blueflag shaft to TP blue players out rather than killing them, kind of sucks to capture the flag and then die.
          Well, the bottlenecking near the base is kinda the plan, since I don't think it will be very difficult for the blue team to get to the red flag, it will be more about keeping the blue team from escaping with the flag at the chokepoints. I'm pretty sure I will be opening up the orange hallway, probably adding another escape route in there. Right now its too long of a path too only lead into a small chokepoint that's easy to defend.

          Originally posted by jayoplus View Post
          This is really cool Gooba.
          I've actually been thinking about doing some sort of one way CTF like this but couldn't quite come up with something yet ^_^.
          Ran around this a bit and here a bit of feedback to add to what NATO already mentioned.
          - I agree with NATO on the weapon placement. Right now it almost seems like only the rocket and sniper were placed with intention while the others were put on there to be there. Here are two screenshots where two shock rifles and two rocket launchers are right next to each other:
          This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version
          This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version

          - I love the theme you're going for and here are a few suggestions for layout tweaks that will still fit in the visual theme but offer up some more interesting maneuvers.
          This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version
          This Image Was Automatically Resized by using the Screenshot Tag.  Click to view the full version

          - I feel like (and these were ideas I noted down for myself when I was considering doing a single side cap- aCTF map) for this style of all out assault style map where only one side caps, it doesn't really do much to the gameplay to have weapons spread out like you would in a normal CTF map. In fact, I would almost venture to doing something similar to a weapon locker and instead of placing weapons strategically, place powerups, health, vials, ammo etc strategically. Also, this style of map could use some really cool side objectives that either opens up a shortcut for the attacking team (an example is a door that someone has to activate to open). Again, this was my own personal feeling of how a map like this could work and it is a bit more work to get all the systems to work which is why I haven't quite released the shell I have so far, but it's your call ^_^.

          - Finally, as NATO mentioned, and I'm sure you probably thought of this since it's still early, it would be nice to have some sort of teleporter so player who caps flag doesn't die. Also, you could have the pit be a bit wider since in a tight game, some players may just dodge over it or something. If you're worried about the red team being able to grab the flag, you could do some blueprinting to prevent that (an idea is to have a door that only opens to the blue team or a flag carrier - NATO has a tutorial for something like this around these parts somewhere).

          Looking forward to the progress on this.

          cheers.
          I like all the changes you guys have suggested, I'll see what I can fit into the map. I'm not sure about the side objectives though, just because I didn't build the map around it and ctf moves so fast its hard to get good gameplay out of them anyways. I will think about it though.

          I agree that dying after capping is bad and the door and teleporter are both good ideas. I will have to mess around with it and find something that works.

          I'm unsure as to why having the weapon bases so close to each other is bad thing though? Doesn't it just push gameplay in a certain direction, or is there something I am not considering?

          Thanks!
          Dm-Sand | Idea to Concept Thread

          Comment


            #6
            Hey man, Np.
            As for the weapons, my thinking is thus: unless it's instagib, and unless one is the current flag carrier, most players will be moving about with the translocator. So using the shock as an example, a player could easily translocator from one to the other to grab a full stocked shock rifle pretty easily.
            Now, I can't say there is a set rule for this except that it's an opinion. It may very well be something to fight over in this gameplay scenario and work out that way. Thing is, we don't know if it will work until some playthroughs right?
            ^_^
            MyArtstation
            @jayoplus

            Comment


              #7
              Let me know if you need a hand with the BP on a teleporter / door

              Having two pickups on the same type near each other can make fights around them really simple. For example the two flak bases underground; currently players who meet there will both have access to a flak, one base in the centre would force players to fight over it, providing greater gameplay opportunities. You'd have to make more out of that area but I think in the long run it'd work out nicer.

              It's just like using a Udamage or shield belt to drive combat on a larger CTF. At this scale providing both sides access to all weapons in base can be tricky, so why not turn that on it's head and create some interesting risk reward interactions by limiting the map to one flak or rocket launcher. This also helps make player movement around your map read better. That kind of predictability helps pace interactions which in turn informs other pickups, run times, helps players communicate, i.e. "He's going to flak!", as well as add value to routes other than the shortest.

              As jayo pointed out having two close together lowers the value of the weapon overall. If refilling your shock is really quick the effective value of each shot is lowered, which can just lead to people spamming shock combos or rockets.

              Comment


                #8
                **** yeah, asymmetry!

                Cyber-punkish urban highrise theme is awesome, really dig the simplicity you are going with for the layout. It's really easy to over design stuff like this so kudos for the direction you are going in. Also good move to keep it relatively small IMO.

                I'd agree that it would probably be best to keep side objectives and the like out (at least for the time being) to not complicate things to much and keep the map accessible. Staging weapons a bit closer for the attacking side is a good suggestion too - lockers might be cool but I actually feel like setting this up thematically somehow might be cooler for this style map. I.e. a bunch of equipment crates with "spilled out" weapons etc. The feedback regarding not mirroring weapon placements sounds spot on to me too, could be really interesting!

                I have to assume that you are supporting side switching (flag in world properties) - are you also setting up your main team identifiers (big red screen etc) to support that? If you haven't already take a look at the TeamDeco BPs and how they are setup to get an idea.


                Hope to be able to give the map a proper go soon. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to see come out of people starting to experiment with asymmetrical stuff, awesome job dude!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yes its a Cool Map

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
                    **** yeah, asymmetry! (...)
                    This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to see come out of people starting to experiment with asymmetrical stuff, awesome job dude!
                    You say that camper vs kamikaze map with lacking of connectivity between routes is the stuff you like?
                    Last edited by BloodK1nG; 03-26-2015, 03:31 PM. Reason: big grin missing
                    CTF-GreenCause - DM-Blaster - CTF-RavenBreak - Assault Mappack
                    Download Folders: My maps & Assault Mappack

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Seems cool, I hope to see more of this type of maps soon. Till now only Gooba and Raste are doing something original. Kudos!

                      But, I just do not feel the corridors.. seem too wide. And the roof on the flag too. But with visuals and other meshes it may become smaller, dunno.
                      work: www.POLEGAR.pt

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jayoplus
                        Hey man, Np.
                        As for the weapons, my thinking is thus: unless it's instagib, and unless one is the current flag carrier, most players will be moving about with the translocator. So using the shock as an example, a player could easily translocator from one to the other to grab a full stocked shock rifle pretty easily.
                        Now, I can't say there is a set rule for this except that it's an opinion. It may very well be something to fight over in this gameplay scenario and work out that way. Thing is, we don't know if it will work until some playthroughs right?
                        ^_^
                        Yeah, I figured I could get away with that issue because the limit on full ammo is pretty low anyways. At least that was the theory, but I don't think it works so well in practice. :P

                        Originally posted by NATO_chrisjm
                        Let me know if you need a hand with the BP on a teleporter / door

                        Having two pickups on the same type near each other can make fights around them really simple. For example the two flak bases underground; currently players who meet there will both have access to a flak, one base in the centre would force players to fight over it, providing greater gameplay opportunities. You'd have to make more out of that area but I think in the long run it'd work out nicer.

                        It's just like using a Udamage or shield belt to drive combat on a larger CTF. At this scale providing both sides access to all weapons in base can be tricky, so why not turn that on it's head and create some interesting risk reward interactions by limiting the map to one flak or rocket launcher. This also helps make player movement around your map read better. That kind of predictability helps pace interactions which in turn informs other pickups, run times, helps players communicate, i.e. "He's going to flak!", as well as add value to routes other than the shortest.

                        As jayo pointed out having two close together lowers the value of the weapon overall. If refilling your shock is really quick the effective value of each shot is lowered, which can just lead to people spamming shock combos or rockets.
                        My thinking, was that I wanted both players to fight using the flak, not fighting for it, since players will be more focused on grabbing the flag than grabbing items. But like I said above my idea doesn't work very well in practice.

                        I will try to figure out the door BP thing, but if I have questions, I will definitely let you know.

                        Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
                        **** yeah, asymmetry!

                        Cyber-punkish urban highrise theme is awesome, really dig the simplicity you are going with for the layout. It's really easy to over design stuff like this so kudos for the direction you are going in. Also good move to keep it relatively small IMO.

                        I'd agree that it would probably be best to keep side objectives and the like out (at least for the time being) to not complicate things to much and keep the map accessible. Staging weapons a bit closer for the attacking side is a good suggestion too - lockers might be cool but I actually feel like setting this up thematically somehow might be cooler for this style map. I.e. a bunch of equipment crates with "spilled out" weapons etc. The feedback regarding not mirroring weapon placements sounds spot on to me too, could be really interesting!

                        I have to assume that you are supporting side switching (flag in world properties) - are you also setting up your main team identifiers (big red screen etc) to support that? If you haven't already take a look at the TeamDeco BPs and how they are setup to get an idea.


                        Hope to be able to give the map a proper go soon. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to see come out of people starting to experiment with asymmetrical stuff, awesome job dude!
                        Yep I have side switching, but I haven't gotten to changing the huge identifiers when it switches yet. I was unsure if it would work to change something as massive as the billboard from red to blue during a switch? Everything else should be pretty easy to manage.

                        I haven't really looked into it yet though, so maybe its easier than I thought. ;D

                        a bunch of equipment crates with "spilled out" weapons
                        I like this idea, especially for the blue side.

                        My reasoning for how I had weapon placement in the videos is: I was trying balance the starting weapons (since the weapons you spawn next to in this mode will get used a lot more than others) with weapons that would have a more specific use in the areas they are in. Like hitscan for offense and larger areas, splash for defense, flak for the tunnels. But the execution was obviously not great, so having limited weapon placement will benefit the gameplay more than plenty.



                        Originally posted by BloodK1nG
                        You say that camper vs kamikaze map with lacking of connectivity between routes is the stuff you like?
                        Why all the hate? I'm sure there will plenty of maps that cater to your preferred play style, I'm trying to do something different.

                        Originally posted by HeisenbergTrip
                        Seems cool, I hope to see more of this type of maps soon. Till now only Gooba and Raste are doing something original. Kudos!

                        But, I just do not feel the corridors.. seem too wide. And the roof on the flag too. But with visuals and other meshes it may become smaller, dunno.
                        Yeah, I've already made changes to the corridors and I've added a path between the tunnels and the orange hallway too. I will try to get pictures soon.

                        Thanks guys! Hopefully I can get all those changes in soon.

                        Cheers!
                        Dm-Sand | Idea to Concept Thread

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I can't believe I missed this.

                          Anyway, I do have some concerns about utilization of asymmetry to make what are effectively new gametypes. This was something I remember talking with Sid about a bit and it's kind of worrisome for me ... because you could theoretically recreate Assault within CTF. But then we get into the problem that arose for Assault in UT2004. If we use extant gametypes to create new gametypes and those become extremely prevalent, then we essentially circumvent the role/utility of gametypes altogether as a means of delivering a consistent experience to the player. I'm not saying that this is a bad idea for this map specifically but it's a point that makes me hesitant on being totally thrilled with the map.

                          Blade Runner stylization here is wonderful. Can't wait to see this move to an art pass. Are you planning on utilizing UT3 assets at all to supplement here?
                          Find My: Twitter | YouTube | Downloads | Podcast
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                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by BloodK1nG View Post
                            You say that camper vs kamikaze map with lacking of connectivity between routes is the stuff you like?
                            I like lots of different styles of levels and would encourage anybody who is up for it to experiment with wild ideas. Coming up with stuff that is polarizing is perfectly fine and desireable. Having a large variety of levels is part of what makes UT awesome.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Gooba View Post
                              Yep I have side switching, but I haven't gotten to changing the huge identifiers when it switches yet. I was unsure if it would work to change something as massive as the billboard from red to blue during a switch? Everything else should be pretty easy to manage.

                              I haven't really looked into it yet though, so maybe its easier than I thought. ;D
                              Yep shouldn't be an issue at all. You could simply duplicate say the chevron BP (already a child of the main BP) and fill out/tweak the relevant default properties. All you need really is a mesh with a material hooked up that supports color switching. Just take a look at the other existing ones, mat id 0 on the mesh is used for the color changes IIRC.

                              Comment

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