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    #31
    I wasn't accusing the mod of shortening TTL. I was stating that the biggest problem with the stock game is TTL, which the mod isn't addressing.

    UT'99 TTL has to be filtered through average ping. Lower pings made the weapons way easier to use, and thus TTL should be expected to come down, but when the game was new, and played on average internet pings, the TTL was much better. HS's were so easy on a sub 30ms ping, that the sniper rifle alone would tank TTL now. Would actually, probably be very comparable to UT4.

    I was a firm opponent of the Shield Gun coming out of 2k4, due to it's overly defensive nature - despite the fact that I found awesome ways to use it for offense. The current weapon efficacy though, makes me think this game needs it. Way more than even the scan fest that was 2kx.

    Raising TTL by lowering weapon efficacy will eliminate the need for spawn delays. Where as it will simultaneously raise the efficacy of 100hp, it willl do the same 2 fold for the armors, as they will allow the up player to increase arsenal. Combined with your fast switch times, and you wont' need to delay spawns, because to contest properly, a fresh spawn will either need help or equipment, as opposed to just spamming the TL past one gun, and at the very least cutting your stack, so the next one gun spawn can finish the job and force a pickup or return. Obviously this gets more complex as you run different team scenarios and mismatches through the ringer, but at the end of the day, you still are just a bunch of glass cannons. Glass cannons are far too susceptible to lucky shots, and are overly advantaged by positioning, which a fresh spawn can leverage pretty well, as he usually knows where he got killed from, and who's spawn has the opportunity to ambush, or approach from a number of angles. I'm also sure you guys know certain maps where certain, single players can leverage positioning to solo defend very effectively, creating another reason why you need a spawn delay, due to how quickly you have to deal with that glass cannon again after killing him on the way in, which is quite the challenge to begin with.
    Originally posted by Mysterial
    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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      #32
      nubizZz Do you know of any stat database that is still active for 2k4 or UT99? I'm genuinely curious about it. The official one implies a TTL of 13 seconds for 2k4CTF. I know this is likely not the case.
      Last edited by pb.; 05-16-2018, 01:19 AM.
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        #33
        I am not. I wanted to reference them for total frags on weapons to give people a better idea of how dominant scans really were in those games, and they seem to have all been filed as confidential for Epic's eyes only. After all the weapons basically rolled the board in total frags, you would have needed the raw data to see the numbers, or snap shots over time to see what weapons rolled first, and when. The boards were pretty detailed, though I don't even remember what all they covered in terms of TTL.

        Most of my stat references for TAM were based on GINA servers, since that was internal, and I doubt those even exist anymore.
        Originally posted by Mysterial
        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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          #34
          Here's the stats for an MLUT. It looks like competitive 99 has a TTL of about 36 seconds. This is in line with UT4.

          http://www.prounreal.org/utstats/mlctf25/?p=
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            #35
            Originally posted by nubizZz
            UT'99 TTL has to be filtered through average ping. Lower pings made the weapons way easier to use, and thus TTL should be expected to come down, but when the game was new, and played on average internet pings, the TTL was much better. HS's were so easy on a sub 30ms ping, that the sniper rifle alone would tank TTL now. Would actually, probably be very comparable to UT4.
            2013 is certainly closer to now than it is to '99.
            Last edited by nubizZz; 05-16-2018, 04:15 PM.
            Originally posted by Mysterial
            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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              #36
              Emulating a 20 year old game to the T, including it's 20 year old netcode and all of the ******** that goes with it is not exactly our prerogative. I presented you empirical evidence (complete with a time series regression model!) that our mod is not actively decreasing TTL, but rather (at least in our eyes) making the game feel more consistent, balanced, and fun. It isn't our goal to fundamentally change the game. We just want to tweak what we have

              If you're going to insert your netcode garbage here you're welcome to go make a game/mod where all players are required to aim arbitrary distances away from their targets to hit them. Go make a game where people join a server and it randomly generates a distance they have to lead their shots. Go do it if it's so great. No one would play that garbage because no one likes arbitrary inconsistency. It's inherently annoying.

              I personally don't want to play a game where you have to balance everything based on people being mentally/physically by way of latency unable to consistently aim. Jesus Christ give it up.
              Last edited by pb.; 05-17-2018, 04:37 PM.
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                #37
                The Spawn Delay is to combat momentum on trans locating and the increased abilities and distance of the piston rather than TTL of the weapons. Without the spawn delay, you would have to frag the same player 3 to 4 times in order to cap more times than not. The spawn delay is not ideal, but you have to tweak one of the three: momentum on trans, piston distance, or spawn time in order to balance the speed of the game out, and as of right now, we chose to increase spawn delay to help that out, though that could always change in the future.
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                  #38
                  I'm simply addressing the fact that hardcore mode in UT became the standard due to average pings. Weapon efficacy in that game was tuned for triple digit pings. There is no other explanation for that Sniper RoF.

                  If ping comp is to be a thing, then sniper DPS (as one example) needs to be addressed. As a reminder, 2kx splits the difference in terms of global networking quality, and this mod literally tried to move it back to those same numbers before realizing the error, and still couldn't bring your selves to drop it below stock, because "religion of precision." 2kx which did not have native ping compensation, and who's balance was degrading due to improving network environment, and was decimated by newnet.

                  I would contest that even without compensation, average regional pings warrant weaker scans than we have now, in this game that seems currently slighted to ship with compensation. I also supported the projectile sniper.

                  The last UT related game designed for a no latency environment was the original Unreal™. Lets look at some numbers:

                  Shock 32/55/220
                  Rockets 85/100
                  Sniper 45/100
                  Mini1 ~85DPS (for reference UT and UT3 were well over 100)

                  Barring mini being comparable to 2kx damage numbers, you'll notice all of them are lower damage. It's hard to even compare current pulse to anything past, as it's velocity changes completely change the personality of the weapon. It's more like the Unreal™ Stinger now, and damage is actually almost the same, read: about half the DPS of it's predecessors.

                  If we are stuck attempting to simulate a no latency environment, we should have weapons balanced for no latency. We currently have weapons balanced for accessibility.
                  Originally posted by Mysterial
                  An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                    #39
                    I couldn't agree more with nubizZz. Balance is important, but meaningless if the game isn't fun. None of the metrics being gathered even try to measure that (with exception of TTL in the cases where that is being tracked), but it can be measured.

                    Fun is what happens when scoring is infrequent and meaningful but regular and attainable (hockey, rather than basketball or soccer). It's what happens when death is a constant threat regularly delivered but almost always avoidable (poker rather than blackjack), and where by corollary reward requires risk. It's what happens when rewarding levels of skill execution can be delivered with at least semi-regular consistency by most competent players (juggling rather than craps). It's what happens when players are rewarded for acting on primal instincts and intuition, and for putting themselves in situations that push the limits of their reaction time, multitasking, and real-time tactical decision making skills (ran out of useful analogies, but can't help reflecting on how the most fun UT matches feel a lot like juggling).

                    Fun is most definitely not what happens when the most viable counter to an opponent is to do what he's doing only better. That's just a world devoid of variety, creativity, and (when hitscan is the strongest skill) counterplay. It's also a world served radically better by a host of existing non-arena shooters, usually by focusing heavily on the only major details left to vary -- pregame loadout and pre-engagement positioning -- details which are anathema to the very spirit of AFPS as a genre. Fun is not having a stalemate so stable that players must be sidelined to break it. Doing so might mask the problem but only by trading the frustrating problem of being the sidelined player, usually as a punishment for the kind of play I previously indicated should be rewarded. The reset of one's loadout is already punishment enough by a mile. Heck, in games not overpopulated with powerups, loss of health without death is punishment enough.

                    You can declare yourself to be on the right track when you have stats that show seasoned players of all success levels:
                    - regularly choosing different weapons and even weapon classes from each other in the same engagement
                    - at an individual level spending comparable amounts of time using most weapons, demonstrating no strong favorite
                    - declaring or demonstrating choices of overall favorite weapon (as implemented in UT4) that semi-evenly distribute across most weapons
                    - choosing to engage in 1-v-many encounters more often than not (probably hard to measure even with extensive game data though)
                    - experiencing highly varied TTL after discounting the time it takes to acquire situationally effective loadout
                    - showing no corellation between TTL and initial spawn point/nearest weapons
                    - participating in balanced team games where time to score (relative to frequency) has a wide standard deviation (with this deviation growing faster than average game point spreads which should ideally be even shrinking regardless of scoring frequency)
                    - are subjected to constant active pressure (not just tension) yet don't go down quickly even when facing equal opponents
                    Last edited by HonoredMule; 05-19-2018, 04:35 PM.

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                      #40
                      You can declare yourself to be on the right track when you have stats that show seasoned players of all success levels:
                      - regularly choosing different weapons and even weapon classes from each other in the same engagement
                      - at an individual level spending comparable amounts of time using most weapons, demonstrating no strong favorite
                      - declaring or demonstrating choices of overall favorite weapon (as implemented in UT4) that semi-evenly distribute across most weapons
                      - choosing to engage in 1-v-many encounters more often than not (probably hard to measure even with extensive game data though)
                      - experiencing highly varied TTL after discounting the time it takes to acquire situationally effective loadout
                      - showing no corellation between TTL and initial spawn point/nearest weapons
                      - participating in balanced team games where time to score (relative to frequency) has a wide standard deviation (with this deviation growing faster than average game point spreads which should ideally be even shrinking regardless of scoring frequency)
                      - are subjected to constant active pressure (not just tension) yet don't go down quickly even when facing equal opponents

                      This is literally what we have been doing.
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                        #41
                        Hi.
                        I just wanted to personally thank you for doing all this great job just because of passion. That's really admirable. I'm not a pro player, but I'm really passionate about ut even if don't play it that much (bad internet)
                        Please, don't pay attention to fools and trolls, everyone can whine about the **** but so few really do something...
                        I wish the best for project you're working on, and, hopefully cya soon on arenas =)

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