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    Aiming did nothing with it before. If they weren't standing two inches away from you it was just luck to get any hits.
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      Don't agree, you could hit people with it if you aimed directly on them. It felt like shotgun in quake. Luck is how it is now, point and click. Maybe it was a bit weak at mid range, but I thought it was fine

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        It was horrid at mid range. Completely easy to avoid. This is much better. My comparison is how powerful was the Flak in previous games and what could it do. The previous flak primary was worse than all previous games.
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          I remember thinking it was fine at close range and too weak at mid range, the shards needed to be tighter/faster but overall I liked it because it was an improvement over the previous ones in the pre-alpha so far, it didn't feel like Rhino diarrhea was spraying all over my screen everytime someone took a random shot at me. It was worse than previous games, but the current one is a monstrosity and on another level, its harder to miss with than hit and does insane amounts of damage. We won't agree anyway no point bickering and derailing

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            I really like the current balance of the Flak Weapon. The bouncy shards really makes it useful to use walls as opposed to firing just straight into the opponents useful again. Especially in UT3 I barely ever got kills from letting shards first bounce via a wall but in UT99 I probably had just as much kills that way if not more even but in this UT now it feels the most balanced it's ever been. I think a too tight spread would make it too overpowered which it was early on and it was just insanely overpowered then. But this speed of the shards and bounciness makes it more useful and fun than it was previously and it feels more balanced with 2ndary rather powerful splash radius/dmg.

            I personally think Flak is perfect now at least.

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              Current spawn with a helmet turns out to be reasonable innovation, which works well with delayed armor spawn. At least I'm fine with not having one shot kills.

              What do duellers think of it? Zaccubus, Hypno (or who else posts here), what are your thoughts on this matter?

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                The helmet addition is a difficult one IMO, I think ideally movement/armor system should be balanced in that way that helmet isn't required with spawn. With the current balance of the mechanics in the game I think it works reasonably well though. Maybe even thigh pads had been more suitable so you can still HS kill a guy instantly. Rocket Launcher stat-wise seems to definitely be the clearly most powerful weapon that people get the most kills with which would also get nerfed if adding Thigh Pads / 30 armor at start without nerfing sniper use (2x kills body shot + 1 HS instant kill).

                However, I still think one shot kills with Rockets + sniper HS is a good thing to have because:

                1) Air rox kills
                2) Sniper HS makes the weapon more balanced, currently it has a bit poor DPS (damage per second) which is balanced out with the HS ability and rewards good aim.

                With the helmet at start you will make these two scenarios happen more seldom and they both are those kinda kills which adds a lot of satisfaction which shouldn't be nerfed too much. Also certain maps like for CTF-Face, it will completely change the gameplay without being able to 1 shot HS kill people.

                I think the most rewarding gameplay mechanics are those "hard to hit" but high damage which makes especially high skill matches more interesting to watch, if movement is to recieve changes like proposed in the Raxxy's / Sir_brizz tweaks then the helmet likely might not be necessary.
                Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 02-04-2015, 08:36 AM.

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                  Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
                  The helmet addition is a difficult one IMO, I think ideally movement/armor system should be balanced in that way that helmet isn't required with spawn. With the current balance of the mechanics in the game I think it works reasonably well though. Maybe even thigh pads had been more suitable so you can still HS kill a guy instantly. Rocket Launcher stat-wise seems to definitely be the clearly most powerful weapon that people get the most kills with which would also get nerfed if adding Thigh Pads / 30 armor at start without nerfing sniper use (2x kills body shot + 1 HS instant kill).
                  If people want headshots that much, helmet could be easily swapped with additional 20 hp. Don't see a slightest problem here.
                  There is been just too many of one shot kills in crowded matches, so I'm fine with any decision as long as we reduce that number.

                  Originally posted by RPGWiZ4RD View Post
                  I think the most rewarding gameplay mechanics are those "hard to hit" but high damage which makes especially high skill matches more interesting to watch, if movement is to recieve changes like proposed in the Raxxy's / Sir_brizz tweaks then the helmet likely might not be necessary.
                  I think that too high damage (oneshot kills) actually diminishes skill value, favoures lucky shots and makes situations where you try to trade-off a few hp left with a kill or jump in the middle of mishmash in hope of easy frags to happen more often.

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                    I'm fine with the helmet for now. It accomplishes the goal of preventing plenty of instances of spawn killing without necessarily needing spawn protection or reducing the weapon damage dramatically. The headshot protection is one of the good things about it. The helmet gets knocked off from one shot of just about any regular weapons fire, too.
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                      Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                      I'm fine with the helmet for now. It accomplishes the goal of preventing plenty of instances of spawn killing without necessarily needing spawn protection or reducing the weapon damage dramatically. The headshot protection is one of the good things about it. The helmet gets knocked off from one shot of just about any regular weapons fire, too.
                      Do you even realize that:
                      You want to deny a kinda rare 30*30 cm hitbox 140 max dmg kill versus a not even full (overpowered) flak going 120+ dmg (with potential bounces) or a trirox (even a miss with the splash the 120 hp will be gone easily) dealing 300 dmg

                      Does that compute for you????

                      140hp mid/long range vs easy 120+ close range flak or mid/close 300 trirox?

                      or for the slowest

                      30*30cms head hitbox versus whole hitbox skin AND/OR splashes/bounces

                      Does that compute and do you realize how stupid the comparison is? Any sane person will find that nonsensical in term of pure comparison.
                      Last edited by Lwlf; 02-04-2015, 01:34 PM.
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                        I didn't say I wanted anything. Obviously this was something that was a concern for Epic because they brought back moving headshots in the same build that they added helmet. What conclusions can we draw? That fresh spawn double flip wall dodge knee slide headshots are something Epic does not like. I would rather have helmet and moving headshots than no helmet and no moving headshots, frankly.
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                          Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                          I didn't say I wanted anything. Obviously this was something that was a concern for Epic because they brought back moving headshots in the same build that they added helmet. What conclusions can we draw? That fresh spawn double flip wall dodge knee slide headshots are something Epic does not like. I would rather have helmet and moving headshots than no helmet and no moving headshots, frankly.
                          But Sir Brizz now they cant do this in 1 shot sooo not fair!! it now takes 2 shots Ohh nooo

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                            Thanks Epic. Looking forward to the final release.

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                              flak is definitely OP. it's so powerful beyond mid range it's not funny - especially in a confined area
                              not only that, but the splashback damage you suffer yourself has been reduced also

                              the helmet poses an interesting balance issue. i would be annoyed that someone could spawn, with helmet, near a sniper - i could HS him, he could HS me, but i would die as my helmet armour had dropped off some time ago. it's almost like spawn protection where you can be hit by someone with spawn protection, but not the other way around

                              i don't know if i like it. but i think it will protect new players, and that is important

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                                Originally posted by bacon buster View Post
                                flak is definitely OP. it's so powerful beyond mid range it's not funny - especially in a confined area
                                not only that, but the splashback damage you suffer yourself has been reduced also

                                the helmet poses an interesting balance issue. i would be annoyed that someone could spawn, with helmet, near a sniper - i could HS him, he could HS me, but i would die as my helmet armour had dropped off some time ago. it's almost like spawn protection where you can be hit by someone with spawn protection, but not the other way around

                                i don't know if i like it. but i think it will protect new players, and that is important
                                very good point! spawn attack is tactical, I think if they balance (spawn attack vs area control) the game will be just fine!
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