Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Shield Belt A Little To Overpowered?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Imo the best course of action would be to reduce both armour values and weapon damage. This means that you keep the ability to 2shot someone who only grabs the belt (100 armour for example) but when someone has held control for a good while (200 armour + vials) they deserve to absorb more damage.

    The problem right now imo is that someone who maintains full control for some time is rewarded the same amount as someone who grabs 1 belt and in neither case the stack they have is enough to stop them getting 2shot by flak or a shock combo. This makes the game feel shallow compared to what it could be and by reducing both armour and damage you can prevent this whilst also encouraging more consistent and interesting play...

    (...In duel)
    :|

    Comment


    • I don't like the difference between shield and regular armor. At worst it makes non-Belt shields less valuable, at best it's just a pointless distinction that serves no useful purpose in an evenly matched game (the most likely scenario for drawn out Duels). That being said, I don't think the Belt is too OP.

      I agree about some of the shortcomings of UT3 armor management. I'd really be interested in trying out 100% absorption armors across the board for a few builds and see if it makes any real difference in the armor system. I suspect it currently would not.

      What is the goal of increasing number of available stackable armor pieces? Is it to give OOCP more options for a comeback? In Duel there is definitely a point where the ICP has already won the game via control and the minutes counting down are just boring minutes to watch until some kind of engagement happens. I guess the extra armor pieces could force the OOCP to head for them and give the ICP some opportunities to intercept them or risk losing their advantage? Doesn't seem like this has been extrapolated enough to understand the consequences fully...
      HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
      BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
        What is the goal of increasing number of available stackable armor pieces? Is it to give OOCP more options for a comeback? In Duel there is definitely a point where the ICP has already won the game via control and the minutes counting down are just boring minutes to watch until some kind of engagement happens. I guess the extra armor pieces could force the OOCP to head for them and give the ICP some opportunities to intercept them or risk losing their advantage? Doesn't seem like this has been extrapolated enough to understand the consequences fully...
        Is this for the previously, often suggested "add stacking*" or are you referring to ut3 stacking?

        *So players can obtain 100 armor with two pads, etc.
        Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

        Comment


        • Yeah, for add stacking or in relation to the concept above of having "mini shield belts", for example.
          HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
          BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
            Yeah, for add stacking or in relation to the concept above of having "mini shield belts", for example.
            Lets call this slow stacking.

            TLDR; It takes longer/is time consuming to build/maintain stack and makes out of control stacking to reduce stack differential via pickups rather than just damage an option. It restricts the in control players time, movement and opportunity to pressure the out of control player while giving them a way to stack to challenge the in control player.

            It depends how the armor system is setup. To simplify pretend we transplant the quakelive stacking armor (only armor) with the current ut values, everything 30s spawn, max 200, belt becomes 60% (or whatever , no shards, no mega, nothing else.) Obtain two pads and have 100 armor. Obtain 2 jackets and have 200 armor. Obtain a jacket and pads and have 150 armor. Obtain 4 pads for 200. Etc.

            Slow stacking/non-binary duel is about time management. Control and stack comes at the cost of having time to push the out of control player and out of control costs more time to build a stack that can be used for a direct confrontation.

            Player stacks and actions are controlled by time - in order to service a large stack and heavy denial a player should have little opportunity to pressure their opponent. At the same time the out of control player has freedom of movement at the expense of stack. This also ties to their aggression as a failed attack, even without dying costs them the next X period of restacking time.

            In my opinion control should not mean one player has all resources and the other has none, which is typically how ut armor/duel works. Control should mean that a player has a resource advantage, at the expense of time and predictability. This resource advantage should not be permanent (provided items are collected) and by giving the out of control player a method of stacking that allows the resource difference (stack differential) to be equalised they have a method of contesting control that does not rely on execution - with ut damage this would always be an option anyway. The in control player must use the advantage in the window it takes out of control to stack to an amount in order to challenge them - the in control player must take the out of control players potential stack into account.

            There are other repercussions - +forward is slightly more favorable before critical mass is reached as players take longer to stack. There are more opportunities to control players stack when contesting pickups. This means if three items are run by the in control player, the out of control player can apply some damage at each pickup, negating the pickup the player is currently taking. It has a potential to introduce a "balanced" state where players trade damage and pickups for longer periods than with the current setup, even after one dies.

            To highlight one difference using the current game - if a player has control (jacket + belt + dead/heavily reduced armor opponent) they can ignore the pads. They are a one time boost to the out of control player that is small compared to belt, they can still be one shot with current damage values. If pads stacked the in control player has to make a choice - spend more time denying the pads or deal with the other player having 100+ armor at some point in the future 30-60 seconds. This is actually why this change alone would not fix duel - in control player would just move pads higher up their priority list and take three items instead. Some claim that this is required currently, some not, however allowing stacking would make it a larger consideration. Finally they drive player interaction a little better than the current setup, adding more items to contest and reasons to contest.

            The easiest way to balance duel is by looking at it as time management which can be spent on different aspects. imo This change is mainly about providing options to out of control while controlling the in control player.

            I don't know if it is the best solution for ut duel but this is the general idea.
            Last edited by joellll; 08-12-2015, 05:14 AM.
            Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

            Comment


            • Basically raising the skill ceiling on control so maintaining a stack isn't leaps and bounds easier than challenging one.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                Basically raising the skill ceiling on control so maintaining a stack isn't leaps and bounds easier than challenging one.
                And that is the crux of the problem with duels. Control is too easy, it greatly amplifies slight differences, too often turning what might otherwise be a close match into an easy win for whoever gets control first.

                Epic should listen to what Joelll is saying, he's one of the few people actually talking about things that would improve the game rather than what he thinks would help him dominate others and make his playstyle the best/only way to play!

                It's funny how duels have always been a small part of the overall scene, yet most of the posters here seem to think the entire game should be based on what a few duelers want, at the expense of all other players.
                Last edited by MoxNix; 08-12-2015, 05:01 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rAge. View Post
                  Quakelive has 3 armors... And mostly they used 3-4 scheme --> red and yellow + Megahealth or red and 2x yellow + Megahealth
                  More simply put: QL has +300 (+250 with tickdown) worth of stack in the maps, where the IC player often runs +200, called "strong stack" and the OOC player runs +100 (+75 with tickdown), the "weak stack". That means that, the IC player reaches full stack in 2 cycles (~1min) while the OOC player needs 3-4 cycles (~2min). That means there's a set limit to stay in control that's about 2 minutes, unless damage and other plays come into the math. Damage dealt or items stolen by the IC player will extend the control time. Damage dealt or items stolen by the OOC player will shorter the control time.

                  All strategic improvements apart, this timer on map control also helps in making the 10min match and the +2min overtime to work better.
                  DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

                  Designer at Candango Games. Check my Gamasutra Blog.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by joellll View Post
                    Lets call this slow stacking.

                    TLDR; It takes longer/is time consuming to build/maintain stack and makes out of control stacking to reduce stack differential via pickups rather than just damage an option. It restricts the in control players time, movement and opportunity to pressure the out of control player while giving them a way to stack to challenge the in control player.
                    Thanks for writing that out. I actually really agree with that.
                    HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                    BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

                    Comment


                    • This sentance hits the nail on the head:

                      "Control is too easy, it greatly amplifies slight differences, too often turning what might otherwise be a close match into an easy win for whoever gets control first."
                      - MoxNix
                      (can't work out how to quote on mobile :x )

                      The extreme nature of the armour and weapons means that small factors can have a vastly exaggerated impact. It's the same reason why you can say that SB is op because it gives full armour (in duel) but make the equally valid point that it's not op because you can easily disintegrate that full stack in 1 shot and minimal effort with a number of the weapons.

                      I think the best course of action is to take what we have now and tone down both sides of the equation (armour and damage) but keep the Max stack at 199 200 so that you keep the hectic "control flip flop" gameplay we have now but raise the ceiling so you can have more definate gameplay when someone is genuinely in control of the map.
                      :|

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dr.ToxicVenom View Post
                        I thought about not even dignifying your reply with a response, as it is obviously an immature attack, and poor attempt to judge my skills at best. Also it is as though you are trying to say something about me as a player. (Especially in your cute little tldr, which mind you is completely wrong, even the best players have been spawn raped.) I however, decided to take the high road and rather than taking your bate, and turning this thread into a flame war, I figured I would educate you instead. But please try to manner up and be civil for the rest of the topic. Thx!



                        This quote is accurate, but it is a HUGE part of what is wrong with UT4 and yet again brings me back to why UT3 was the most balanced UT to exist.

                        Because of the weapon damage output, movement, and armor values in UT3, at highest tier, no one style of play was better or worse than any other, as each had an multiple counters (possibly with the exception of an adaptive play style as it encompasses all play styles, and only counters itself.)

                        Now before all the UT99 players jump in and start swinging from UT99's Bawlz® Let's keep in mind that for much of the UT99 competitive scene INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WCG (WORLD CYBER GAMES or what used to be THE OLYMPICS OF VIDEO GAMES) DISABLED SHIELD BELT COMPLETELY FOR TOURNAMENTS. Before all the UT2kxx players come in and want their dodge jump, shield gun, and completely overpowered hitscans back, keep in mind I'm not trying to debate which UT is better or worse than which, so getting back to your statement of "This game caters to defensive play immensely" and Mine of "THAT IS A HUGE PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH UT4" I will close with this:

                        Starcraft and League of Legends are probably the most competitive games ever created. Part of what makes them such great competitive games, and what keeps people coming to tournaments to compete, is that at highest skill levels: there is no one style of play the game caters to, you can play an aggressive rush style, or a turtle defense style, and there are counters to each style. This is good for the competitive community as it comes down to meta game and knowing your enemy, and knowing how you are going to beat that player's individual play style, not who can get belt first, and if you fail to get belt first who can run the longest trying desperately to whittle your opponent's armor down only to do so, and also to whittle their health down to 13, with no armor left as they are sitting on belt circle strafing and all the sudden belt spawns just before you can get that last round from minigun into them, and BOOM 150 ARMOR + 100% DAMAGE RESISTANCE = 150 EXTRA HEALTH TRANSLATES TO: THEY'RE FULLY STACKED YET AGAIN, AND THEY INSTANTLY KILL YOU, AND DEPENDING ON THEIR MAP KNOWLEDGE + METAGAME SKILLS = YOU GET SPAWN RAPED, AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. (depain, zaccubus, hypno, insert top tier player here:________ are all perfect examples of this.)

                        And yes this pisses players OFF, and it pisses me off to the point where I'm really not even playing the game until something gets done about it. A lot of other players are going to feel the same way, so the question is becomes "Do you want to play another dead game?"
                        I said this like 6 months ago, got flamed right off the forums.

                        Honestly, it's out of line, the shield belt in competitive is akin to Super Smash Bros. Smash balls. The instant power spike is so ridiculous and the quasi randomness of "who can get to it first" pretty much removes a ton of skill from the game. Competitive play should most definitely have no belt. In Quake for instance, we have to time mega, green, red, yellow. In UT, we have to time belt. Chest/Thighs/Helm aren't important, get them if they are still available, but always get belt. Very one dimensional -- the game plays tremendously better before belt spawns, just saying.

                        I've played against some of these people on the forums that everyone thinks is so good, but without the belt, they suck. Their only super strong skill is timing the belt, the rest of their game is worse and they still win. People say it's salt, but it's not salt, it's true -- one pickup should never have that kind of power unless it's on a clock.

                        People supporting the belt right now are people who dominate the belt. that is their only play style. Nerf the belt you break their game, and they can't have that, cuz then they'd have to actually get good to win.

                        One of these builds should just disable the belt for lulz just to see how the game plays -- we're still in alpha right? What the hell, why not run a build with no belt?

                        We'd realize way fast that the normal armor isn't enough, which should be an indicator that damage is too high. Damage should be tuned without belt, and belt should be normalized into a timed pickup with flat % mitigation until it expires.

                        If you do this, then their is actual value in the armor and health pickups, and you don't pick up the health and still die in one shot.

                        Right now health pickups are in a bad spot too, because the damage is too high. It should be like quake, rewarding speed AND precision, but instead it's like CoD, rewarding speed -- first to hit wins and that's pretty weak.

                        The disparity between running belt and being up against belt is snowballing in the belt users favor -- if they are of equal skill, he will almost always hold belt with a full stack, because he runs into unstacked scrub and spawn kills him and restacks as they spawn and recollect weapons.

                        If belt user is better, zero chance.

                        If belt user is worse, but manages to get belt, he can actually win if he can manage to hold it.

                        This is so broken in concept. Snowballing gameplay is bad in shooters.

                        Another thing that's missing is armor shards. Armor shards are inconsequential really when you have a stack, but because they are so small, they can be placed frequently, and usually provide you with just enough armor right by where you spawn to survive the fresh spawn disadvantage.

                        The maps currently have no armor shards [never been in UT, but it's how you fix the fresh spawn feeding problem] and not nearly enough health pickups, they aren't evenly spaced around the maps, and often times there are none even close to you, and if you're playing FFA, the few that are there are almost always picked up by people who don't need them, by the nature of numbers, there are sometimes a dozen players on a map with 4 health packs...

                        Like -- I don't even. And health Vials are tremendously underused.

                        A reason why Quake was such a staple was because the gameplay focused on being good at numerous things; one -- Timing pickups.

                        This meant weapons too, because weaponstay wasn't default. So you had to time the weapons, the individual armors, the quad, and mega.

                        The health/armor system meant that you could engage from advantage, get hit, lose advantage, escape and restack if you could route properly.

                        So pathing was more important.

                        In UT, it's grab flak, or grab rl, or grab sniper or grab shock, or grab link -> get belt. If no belt, just run from belt until belt.

                        If you get caught before a stack, you can't get a stack, if you get caught with a stack, you're probably dead because one hit can destroy your stack.

                        This makes people with better aim tremendously better players because they don't have to be good at timing everything, or controlling map space, they just have to get belt and shoot first.

                        Where a game like quake, a smart player can beat an accurate player, an accurate player can beat a calculated player, in UT, it's AIM trumps every skill, which shouldn't be true in a game that emphasizes movement as much as UT.

                        Fresh spawn sickness is real in UT, it's the part that makes it the toughest to like.
                        Last edited by Laokin; 08-24-2015, 01:16 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                          one pickup should never have that kind of power unless it's on a clock.
                          Agreed.

                          Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                          We'd realize way fast that the normal armor isn't enough, which should be an indicator that damage is too high.
                          There is an important distinction to be had here. Damage is not high, in the context of the franchise. It's as low as it's been. The problem is efficacy. UT played better with higher damage, and much lower weapon efficacy.

                          Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                          If you do this, then their is actual value in the armor and health pickups, and you don't pick up the health and still die in one shot.
                          This is important though. Over all else, the problem is how the belt trivializes everything else that stands beneath it, and nothing stands beside it. More of the AP pickups need to have more comparable values.

                          Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                          in UT, it's AIM trumps every skill, which shouldn't be true in a game that emphasizes movement as much as UT.
                          This is certainly the path it's headed, and can't agree more that it shouldn't be.
                          Originally posted by Mysterial
                          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                            Chest/Thighs/Helm aren't important, get them if they are still available, but always get belt. Very one dimensional -- the game plays tremendously better before belt spawns, just saying.
                            I think your post is about more than just duel? I agree with the overall ideas you have. However..

                            Duel wise: Base health + belt = base health + jacket+pads. Identical amount of health. Ignoring the jacket/pads ends up with the opponent having the same amount of health. The belt isn't really the problem with the armor system in duel, the whole armor system is the problem. The main offender is "in control" where one player dies or has most armor removed then the other goes on to collect belt followed by the next jacket, then belt+jacket, jacket, belt+jacket and the other player is asked to break this almost purely with execution. There is little skill offsetting the jacket to the belt so they don't clash. But players don't ignore the jacket, that is flat out wrong.

                            Edit: A little clarification is needed here. While currently the maximum extra hit points from armor (excluding headshot protection) is 150, with the belt removed the maximum is still 150 - just from two items (jacket and pads) and not at 100% absorbtion. Now it could be said that this is more difficult and takes more skill to run two items. But the system still leaves the out of control player out in the cold with essentially the same dilemma that currently exists. They are trying to kill a player with +150 using nothing. And in this scenario the out of control player is unlikely to have access to the pads because the in control player will want them.

                            I agree with your sentiment that pads/helmet are not important, simply because they are inconsequential and the belt+jacket player can ignore them - what usually happens.

                            While not stack identical 250 (belt) vs 200 (jacket) is close enough for it to not matter if the out of control player had reliable access to the jacket. Unfortunately this is generally not the case.

                            Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                            one pickup should never have that kind of power unless it's on a clock.
                            Its fine if the rest of the system is designed that way, unfortunately it is not. QW/CPMA armor is significantly different to ut or ql but they work decently. QW especially because it lacks vial/shard play similar to ut and has high bursty weapons like ut. The big armor there is even more over the top at 200 points.
                            Last edited by joellll; 08-24-2015, 07:13 AM.
                            Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Laokin View Post
                              in UT, it's AIM trumps every skill, which shouldn't be true in a game that emphasizes movement as much as UT.
                              UT with ping compensation has never emphasized movement. They are two completely different games, thus this game is completely different than UT. It focuses on aim and fixing the armor system won't fix that problem.
                              HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                              BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

                              Comment


                              • If everyone had LAN ping it would be basically the same thing as everyone playing with a 20-50 ping online with ping compensation. I don't know why people keep romanticizing lag in online video games. The goal should be to have it closer to playing like it does on LAN.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X