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Shield Belt A Little To Overpowered?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by rAge. View Post
    There is no problem like that. Games like ut are all about timing and map control. Everything is based on it. It's pretty simple that player who doing this should get the advantage. Anyway it's advantage just on the paper for now, because you can kill stacked guy in one second or two shots. I am against making belt even less important.
    No one is saying belt would be "less important" just... "less OP"
    Trust me, I'm a doctor.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by paranoid_banana View Post
      Did epic ever care to explain the sudden shift from normal armor values to previous ut99 armor values? It seemed so sudden when they did that, and honestly it feels like nothing ever dies considering the absorption rates of vest/belt really. There are times when i can hit consistent 3-4 sniper shots and the enemy still survives, it's absolutely ludicrous. also, cod187, I agree with most of what you've said, but, considering how the belt basically adds 150 health to you I would think that it might be a bit overpowered. 2kxx honestly had the armor values correct because the absorption rate wasn't so absurd where you can sponge every projectile and hitscan and survive. I honestly hate those two games but they did get those rates absolutely correct. if it wasn't for the absorption rate on the belt being 100%, I would have been completely on board with what you have said
      This is what made me angry. No explanation to WHY Epic changed the armour values back to UT99 values. The armors are simply too overpowered, giving the stacked player too much of an offensive advantage! YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GET FULL STACK IN DUEL WHILE PICKING UP SHIELD BELT. NEVER. NEVER EVER EVER IN AN ARENA SHOOTER.

      Anyhow, UT3 and 2k4 values have the values right:

      Sheild belt: 100
      Vest: 50
      Thigh pads: 30
      Helmet: 20

      You can still get a 200 stack with these values. BUT WAIT! Let's combine the stacking with UT3 values, genius!

      OH and you know what else? To avoid making armors OP, let's also go ahead and readjust the absorption rate for ALL armors at 75 percent. This gives more importance to stacking vials and keeping up with your health. Also, it balances out defensive and offensive gameplay.

      With that being said, I can still gain an armor stack by collecting 2 thighpads and a helmet, accumulating to 80 armor points. I can also collect 200 armor by getting a shield belt and 2 vests.

      Epic, let's test out my idea. Not because I'm acting arrogant about all this, but because we need a desperate change. Let's keep the same armor system for ALL game types.
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      • #78
        Also, I'd like someone from epic to release a statement here on this thread on why they changed the armor values back to UT99, and also why they never bothered testing out new values or ideas.
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        • #79
          Originally posted by rAge. View Post
          There is no problem like that. Games like ut are all about timing and map control. Everything is based on it. It's pretty simple that player who doing this should get the advantage. Anyway it's advantage just on the paper for now, because you can kill stacked guy in one second or two shots. I am against making belt even less important.
          The problem is that high lethality in my opinion.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by _Lynx View Post
            So, I've removed the posts that were not more or less related to the shield belt discussion, including the "post-game analysis". It was that or close the thread completely and I'd prefer to keep the good discussion that was before, so please keep it clean.
            Interesting I notice "wheredaweapons" has been banned while his attackers have not been.

            Just sweep it all under the rug, delete messages, ban the victim and pretend it never happened. No wonder the ******** think they can get away with anything... It's because they really can!

            What a wonderful way to run a forum, ban the victim instead of the attackers.

            And now I will probably get more grief for daring to say it.
            Last edited by MoxNix; 07-29-2015, 11:14 AM.

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            • #81
              Well since the account is listed as banned per the request of the account holder maybe you should just delete what you just wrote. While a few of you seem to think you have everything figured out, there is sometimes more to a picture than what you see. It's getting old being told that those of us that volunteer our time to help moderate this place are told we suck or are clueless when in fact we are just trying to be fair.

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              • #82
                Moxnix relax mate you if you got 3 points it's a slap on the wrist I've had 9 and all expired. You offended someone regardless if people agree with you or not just relax they will expire. I understand why I got mine and the others to me seemed like they didn't get punished. Yes I was angry but looking back I did cross the line and this isn't the place to flame war. It's a professional 3nvironment. Moderators are doing a excellent job. Their not babysitters and we're not children. Your points will expire. Your not banned. I know exactly what your talking about and people your talking about. Don't worry about others. Just be careful with your posts that's all.
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                • #83
                  Originally posted by nvz View Post
                  Also, I'd like someone from epic to release a statement here on this thread on why they changed the armor values back to UT99, and also why they never bothered testing out new values or ideas.
                  There's such an oddly demanding, entitled tone to your posts in this thread.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by legionz View Post
                    There's such an oddly demanding, entitled tone to your posts in this thread.
                    This thread fired me up into a really demanding mode. I don't want to be overly demanding, but enough to capture epics attention to release some sort of statement.
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                    • #85
                      Wow I come back to this thread not even a week later and see a flood of reply. Unfortunately most of this thread has turned into #Thuglife dueler discussion and how shieldbelt effects duel. I personally don't care for duel for the following reasons:

                      1. I've become to bad at the game since the ut99 days.
                      2. I don't know the maps well enough to run a pattern and try to control power-ups.
                      3. Internet usually sucks and so do I.
                      4. I'm getting to old for this *****.

                      But anyways I was hoping more people would respond with ideas on how the shield belt could be changed for the better and maybe some of the other power ups as well. I noticed a lot of you saying the armor stacking with the shield belt is too strong and I think that is a good point. What other ideas do you guys have? Other than making a timed duration for the shield belt or maybe even a armor degradation over time could work too (which may have been mentioned already). In any case I would like to hear others ideas for how power-ups and armor could possibly be changed to make the game feel more balanced, because maybe its just me and my rusty/suckyness but the game just seems to lack balance ATM and I for one would like to play a better feeling game before beta hits.

                      -Redemption on UT4

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by RCM-Creations View Post
                        But anyways I was hoping more people would respond with ideas on how the shield belt could be changed for the better and maybe some of the other power ups as well. I noticed a lot of you saying the armor stacking with the shield belt is too strong and I think that is a good point. What other ideas do you guys have? Other than making a timed duration for the shield belt or maybe even a armor degradation over time could work too (which may have been mentioned already). In any case I would like to hear others ideas for how power-ups and armor could possibly be changed to make the game feel more balanced, because maybe its just me and my rusty/suckyness but the game just seems to lack balance ATM and I for one would like to play a better feeling game before beta hits.

                        -Redemption on UT4
                        I personally think the belt at 150 is pretty good for most gametypes excluding duel. From a non duel standpoint, it's very rewarding, and encourages a lot of team play. The thing I think it needs most is damage mitigation, so that a player doesn't become a tank the moment he gets it. If he's low on HP, it will encourage him to pass the belt off to a teammate with more HP.

                        Bring the stack back to 200 armor and that'll make it even more interesting, simply because I miss being able to increase armor more than 150. To balance this, the armor could either deteriorate over time, or it could deteriorate with damage received. In other words, the more damaged the armor is, the less it mitigates damage. etc etc.

                        There are lots of ways you could balance the armors.
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                        • #87
                          Curved dampening is an interesting idea, and one I hadn't thought of yet. Have to calc out how much of a difference it would actually make though.

                          Ultimately, the problem isn't just the belt. The belt is just the most potent piece of an overall meh system.

                          A lot of things could be done to improve it, and the weapons would definitely need adjustments to balance. Personally I'd like to see value on the larger pickups better balanced, so one isn't so ridiculously superior to the others, and the ones that are inferior work better with them selves, not just that one other piece. I also wouldn't mind dropping one of the four health pools all together, but it may not be necessary with some balancing. Like making the keg less of a "powerup" by making if a 50h, but with the same attributes of usual overhealth and a smaller respawn timer. Drop the belt to 100, with 10% dampening, and allow pads to stack with themselves. Maybe but the overhealth pool in half, and don't allow full health to pickup keg/vials.

                          I feel like I could spitball a half dozen systems better than the ones we've had, and I'm still absorbing new ideas from discussion, the tough part is going to be selling it to players who are used to "how it's always been." Ultimately, I think only the aesthetics should remain.
                          Originally posted by Mysterial
                          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by nvz View Post
                            YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GET FULL STACK IN DUEL WHILE PICKING UP SHIELD BELT. NEVER. NEVER EVER EVER IN AN ARENA SHOOTER.
                            Why not. Seems fine if the whole system is designed that way. See CPMA and Quakeworld, they work fine. Problem with ut is the player with belt gets full stack, control of it and probably control of jacket. If they other player has died or taken damage they get.. pads? Or they get to contest jacket/belt with no stack. If they want more stack they have to get the helmet. In essence they have to do more work for much less and spend more time. It is *** about. In addition allowing the out of control player to get the pads (currently) is generally ok because they are a small, one time only boost - you can still oneshot or almost one shot the player wearing them.

                            Originally posted by nvz View Post
                            With that being said, I can still gain an armor stack by collecting 2 thighpads and a helmet, accumulating to 80 armor points.
                            UT3 stacking worked that way? Maybe just your wording makes it sound that way.

                            Anyway - I like the stacking idea but dislike the values, or dislike the values in traditional ut "only include one pickup of an armor per map". For several reasons.

                            1) If stacking same items was allowed the pads instantly become more important to the out of control player, meaning the in control player can shift them into a pickup cycle easily. This means the out of control player has.. helmet. Not reasonable. Even average QL players will run mega + 2 armors easily. In control players will be able to run belt/jacket/pads. The outcome is possibly worse than the current setup - out of control has a helmet to stack on. 40 armor per ~minute? Even keeping the current values in ut4 and enabling stacking has the same problem - in control adds pads as an important item to deny, denies it and out of control is left with nothing at all (or the helmet).

                            Adding a +health pickup outside of vials would possibly alleviate this to a degree as it would probably be more "important" than pads.

                            2) Because of ut strong weapon damage the small armor values suggested alone (20/30) offer marginal protection. This means that our of control needs two pickups are required to be "combat ready" compared to current (single pad pickup) if you do not want to play "get weapon +attack" style of game. Where as the belt or jacket offer plenty enough to survive one shotting. A further nerf to out of control play.

                            3) Ties into 2. 80 armor for two spawns (30+20, 30) is paltry for the amount of time spent.

                            The values themselves are relatively unimportant to the armor system. The better way to look at is how long both players take to stack, how survivable players are, how the armors can be controlled and what each player can do at different points in time.

                            Simply enabling stacking will help to a degree.
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                            • #89
                              The armor values should just be decreased, along with the damage output of certain weapons. UT3's armor system of 100, 50, 30, 20 was very simple yet made the most sense. Collect all the armors and you have a full stack: 200 armor. It's just absolutely ridiculous how people get such high rewards in armor for simply walking into it and picking it up. Not to mention the increase in armor values only made it so it's even harder for players to make a comeback in duel.
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                              • #90
                                I don't really feel like there is any problem with the armor system right now.

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