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What UT doesn't need. An essay.

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    #31
    Originally posted by van Kuss View Post
    English is my third language so pardon, and don't be that guy because you understood it ^^
    If I only see my own medal and can't see the other guys one, why make them in first place?
    Because it's a competitive game. Bragging rights. You can tweet your achievements. It's an "in your face" to your friends, and then your friends come into the game to try and beat you back.

    It gets people in the game, and keeps it competitive. I think it's an awesome idea.

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      #32
      Originally posted by starman View Post
      Because it's a competitive game. Bragging rights. You can tweet your achievements. It's an "in your face" to your friends, and then your friends come into the game to try and beat you back.

      It gets people in the game, and keeps it competitive. I think it's an awesome idea.
      No offense, but I dont think you dont understand the same as me when we talk of competitive game. This is not a zynga game.
      Last edited by Zoddom; 05-13-2014, 05:21 PM.
      veritas filia temporis

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        #33
        Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
        No offense, but I dont think you dont understand the same as me when we talk of competitive game. This is not a zynga game.
        I understand quite a bit. I've been playing games far longer than most people here. I wrote my first game before most people here were born.

        EDIT: I probably wrote my first game before some people's parents were born.

        Competitive games have achievements. Maybe YOU are the one that doesn't understand. Have you played Starcraft II? Very competitive, and has achievements. I can name tons of others. Shall I?
        Last edited by starman; 05-13-2014, 05:31 PM.

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          #34
          No you don't need to name more because there is no point in.
          I don't doubt that many games HAVE achievements, I just say that they are just completely unnecessary. They just dont't add anything to the game itself. It's just a try to artificially prolong gaming fun and MANY will agree that achievements don't do anything to improve the fun you ahve in a game.
          When we speak of competitive games it's even CLEARER that they do NOT need any achievements because the game gets it importance from PvP gameplay!
          veritas filia temporis

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            #35
            Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
            No you don't need to name more because there is no point in.
            I don't doubt that many games HAVE achievements, I just say that they are just completely unnecessary. They just dont't add anything to the game itself. It's just a try to artificially prolong gaming fun and MANY will agree that achievements don't do anything to improve the fun you ahve in a game.
            When we speak of competitive games it's even CLEARER that they do NOT need any achievements because the game gets it importance from PvP gameplay!
            Sorry, but you're wrong.

            You don't seem like a game developer. Developers don't just start running around with anecdotal information. They have facts to back up their claims because facts are what you base your resources on and that makes money.

            YOU think achievements are unnecessary. That's *your opinion*. You have no facts to back it up.

            You say to that "MANY will agree that achievements don't do anything to improve the fun you ahve in a game". Again, Starcraft II has achievements and that game is doing pretty **** well, don't you think?

            Also, there's a poll about achievements and "Yes" is beating out "No" by a healthy margin.

            Achievements prolong *MY* gaming fun, and the fun of others. Just because *YOU* don't like them doesn't mean that the gaming community as a whole doesn't like them.

            In World of Warcraft, guilds go on "Achievement Runs" to finish as many as they can. Sounds like fun to me, and it prolongs the game.

            So, you may not be convinced, but in the end it's up to Epic to decide.

            If you bothered to look at the API, achievement APIs are already in the game.

            Comment


              #36
              No vehicles, no matchmaking, no archivements, no framestory?
              That's just your opinion, you may go stay in the past and play UT99.
              You could also say:
              Before the 80s you couldn't save your game, so we don't need a savegames today...
              UT99 had Unreal Engine 1, we don't need UE4...

              Comment


                #37
                While I agree about the game design, movement and "hats", I strongly disagree about vehicules. Of course vehicules will not be focused at the beginning of the development, since you want the core gameplay to be implemented before going into vehicules. Vehicules will be balanced around on foot gameplay, and not the other way around, hence why it is logical to develop DM/TDM/CTF first. I strongly agree with that way to do. Saying a UT game doesn't need vehicules, as stated by NeffeZ, is your personnal opinion (like everything you said in fact, but you seem to have trouble undestanding opposite point of views). Assault/Onslauhgt/Warfare/vCTF communities are all part of the UT community. Vehicules game modes are great for the most part. They do introduce new gameplay elements and strategies.

                They are also competitive game modes. Have you ever played vCTF for example? Strategy take so much importance around vehicules and positionning that i've already seen teams full of great DM/TDMers get destroyed by guys who barely played any of those game modes, only because of map awareness. This is the proof, in my opinion, that vehicules base game modes are relevent in a UT game. I am more of a team player. Personnaly I'm not able to play DM/TDM for long periods of time. However, I still see the importance of those game modes and what they can bring to the game. It is incredible how fast you improve your skills with guns on those game modes, but I also like a lot picking a Goliath and destroying everything in my path.

                As for achievement points, if you play competitively, why do you even care? If you don't probably no competitive players will do when playing important games. Yes the game is meant to be played in a competitive way, but let's not forget the game is also about fun, so achievements could be implemented with no harm to the core of the game.

                Originally posted by raxxy View Post
                Stats should be categorized

                Player
                Overall
                Code:
                -> Assault -> CUP
                               -> iAS
                               -> ETC
                
                -> TDM     -> iTDM
                             -> modTDM (etc)
                
                -> CTF      -> VCTF
                             -> iCTF
                etc, giving people a way to look at a players stats in his preferred game-type, verses overall stats in one where maybe he goes to mess around (me with bunnytracks for example, i had a historically great KDR, but if bunnytrack deaths were merged into it, it would be terrible.)
                Oh god, yes this is so vital. DM's Stats rely more on KD, while CTF relies more on Captures/Defenses. It's useless merging them all. It doesn't give info the skills of a player other than "Yeah, well that dude played a lot".
                Last edited by Alex1902; 05-13-2014, 11:00 PM.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by starman View Post

                  YOU think achievements are unnecessary. That's *your opinion*. You have no facts to back it up.
                  Of course it is my opinion, because I was the one who said that...
                  But it's also supported by my personal experience.
                  Just saying that it is "just" my opinion is not a valid argument.

                  Originally posted by starman View Post
                  Again, Starcraft II has achievements and that game is doing pretty **** well, don't you think?
                  You don't really believe that SC2 is doing so well because it has achievements, do you? It does, because it is a good game. You cannot just throw achievements in **** games and suddenly they get popular.
                  And as an example, CS 1.6 didn't have achievements, and CSS didn't have achievements for the longest time, so how are you arguing that good games need achievements?

                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  [...]i've already seen teams full of great DM/TDMers get destroyed by guys who barely played any of those game modes, only because of map awareness. This is the proof, in my opinion, that vehicules base game modes are relevent in a UT game.
                  I don't understand your argumentation, please explain how this is a proof.

                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  They do introduce new gameplay elements and strategies. [...]I am more of a team player. Personnaly I'm not able to play DM/TDM for long periods of time.
                  I am getting the feeling that you are that kind of player which van Kuss described. I also think you are looking for a different game, and that has nothing to do with you being more of a team player. UT is also a teamgame without vehicles.

                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  [...] but let's not forget the game is also about fun, so achievements could be implemented with no harm to the core of the game.
                  But that also does not explain why this game needs achievements.
                  Last edited by Zoddom; 05-14-2014, 10:16 AM.
                  veritas filia temporis

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                    #39
                    You don't really believe that SC2 is doing so well because it has achievements, do you? It does, because it is a good game. You cannot just throw achievements in **** games and suddenly they get popular.
                    Where did I say that Starcraft II was doing well *BECAUSE* of achievements? I was addressing your point that competitive games don't have them, and I proved otherwise. Don't put words in people's mouths.

                    But that also does not explain why this game needs achievements.
                    I already stated why this game needs achievements. First off, the UE4 API already supports them, so my guess is that there's a 99.9% chance UT will have them. Second, bragging on social media is a big thing. If UT doesn't do that, I think players may think it's detrimental. I see achievements flying through my Twitter feed every day. It's nice to break out of the game world.
                    Last edited by starman; 05-14-2014, 11:10 AM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by NeffeZ View Post
                      No vehicles, no matchmaking, no archivements, no framestory?
                      That's just your opinion, you may go stay in the past and play UT99.
                      You could also say:
                      Before the 80s you couldn't save your game, so we don't need a savegames today...
                      UT99 had Unreal Engine 1, we don't need UE4...
                      That entire post might as well not exist for all that it added to the conversation.

                      Not wanting vehicles in the next UT is not the same as wanting a clone of UT99. The same could be said of everything else you tried to assert.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by starman View Post
                        Where did I say that Starcraft II was doing well *BECAUSE* of achievements? I was addressing your point that competitive games don't have them, and I proved otherwise. Don't put words in people's mouths.
                        Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                        I don't doubt that many games HAVE achievements, I just say that they are just completely unnecessary.
                        I am not the one putting words in peoples mouths. I just said that you didn't explain if SC2 really needs achievements. Because thats what this thread is all about.

                        Originally posted by starman View Post
                        I already stated why this game needs achievements. First off, the UE4 API already supports them, so my guess is that there's a 99.9% chance UT will have them.
                        Please do me a favour and read this again.

                        Originally posted by starman View Post
                        Second, bragging on social media is a big thing. If UT doesn't do that, I think players may think it's detrimental. I see achievements flying through my Twitter feed every day. It's nice to break out of the game world.
                        Now I can see where your point is. And sadly I have to admit that many people really believe this. However, I think that by far the most players who have sufficient gaming experience before this achievement plague started infesting the "gaming world" find it just annoying and childish.


                        Originally posted by mastermanaic View Post
                        That entire post might as well not exist for all that it added to the conversation.

                        Not wanting vehicles in the next UT is not the same as wanting a clone of UT99. The same could be said of everything else you tried to assert.
                        Thank you.
                        Last edited by Zoddom; 05-14-2014, 11:52 AM.
                        veritas filia temporis

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                          #42
                          Maybe we need an own thread about vehicles

                          I share the opinion that vehicles dont fit in the major gameplay of unreal tournament [ tdm/tam,duel,insta...] but i would never say that UT3 died because of vehicles, vCTF and BTA are the ONLY mods which are still played in UT3.
                          It especially helps "newbies" to get into the game and if u play 5on5 "clanwars" its hell of fun and requires ALOT of strategy...believe me
                          And ofc its just beautiful sometimes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYWMgT8ECkQ

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                            Now I can see where your point is. And sadly I have to admit that many people really believe this. However, I think that by far the most players who have sufficient gaming experience before this achievement plague started infesting the "gaming world" find it just annoying and childish.
                            Right now there's a small battle between experienced and old players against people who came later, usually younger, that enjoyed UT2k4 because it had some funny bikes and tanks. It has already been stated why UT2k4 movement was not suited for an arena shooter, because for level design reasons, weapon balance, model size, etc. and this together gave a really strange feeling. But it seems like parkour is a thing many "players" like. I mean, just check the poll in the Movement section, there's a "wall running" option. I'll repeat myself: do these people know what UT is? What I think is that they associate the name UT with vehicles, acrobatic jumps and such things, and this is really wrong. I'm really scratching my head at some of the suggestions in here (really just go around the forums to have a good laugh). People say that we should adapt to other games, lol? Really original. "But look, Call of Duty has achievements too and they work fine" They work fine in Call of Duty, also why copy? When UT came out people went crazy and the amount of custom content was astonishing. Now we have to include a system where people should be matched against other people's skill level. LOL. First off, how does one measure skill lvl in such a game? Second, poor player could hurt himself playing against skilled players or what? Actually when I still was a noob (everybody was a noob at some point) I really wished to play against some legends of the time. When an important name showed up in some server people were mad, trying to kill him and trying to learn the more they could. And after that bad guy mopped the floor with the server (lol thanks to the user who said this in the other thread) people will ask him questions. Now we even need social kind of things where you can update your social status where you said "headshotted my friend in tehnew game lol!!1" Oh let's not forget people who said headshots are not a thing Unreal should have.

                            I truly hope Epic knows the right thing to do*
                            *The right thing to do is release UE1 source code btw lol

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by van Kuss View Post
                              Right now there's a small battle between experienced and old players against people who came later, usually younger, that enjoyed UT2k4 because it had some funny bikes and tanks. It has already been stated why UT2k4 movement was not suited for an arena shooter, because for level design reasons, weapon balance, model size, etc. and this together gave a really strange feeling. But it seems like parkour is a thing many "players" like. I mean, just check the poll in the Movement section, there's a "wall running" option. I'll repeat myself: do these people know what UT is? What I think is that they associate the name UT with vehicles, acrobatic jumps and such things, and this is really wrong. I'm really scratching my head at some of the suggestions in here (really just go around the forums to have a good laugh). People say that we should adapt to other games, lol? Really original. "But look, Call of Duty has achievements too and they work fine" They work fine in Call of Duty, also why copy? When UT came out people went crazy and the amount of custom content was astonishing. Now we have to include a system where people should be matched against other people's skill level. LOL. First off, how does one measure skill lvl in such a game? Second, poor player could hurt himself playing against skilled players or what? Actually when I still was a noob (everybody was a noob at some point) I really wished to play against some legends of the time. When an important name showed up in some server people were mad, trying to kill him and trying to learn the more they could. And after that bad guy mopped the floor with the server (lol thanks to the user who said this in the other thread) people will ask him questions. Now we even need social kind of things where you can update your social status where you said "headshotted my friend in tehnew game lol!!1" Oh let's not forget people who said headshots are not a thing Unreal should have.

                              I truly hope Epic knows the right thing to do*
                              *The right thing to do is release UE1 source code btw lol
                              And Kuss nailed it once again.

                              The common argument among those who detest UT purists is "well, just go play UT99 if you want nothing to change!" (and they're wrong, by the way - just saying). Well, my response is, if you want Titanfall or CoD, go play Titanfall or CoD.

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                                #45
                                Wow thanks for those 2 last posts. They really stated what dwelled in me all this time.
                                van Kuss you really said all the important stuff.
                                Although I think you misunderstood my idea of a ranking system, which would only be included in a tournament mode (ranked games, 1on1 leagues, 5on5 leagues etc so to say), which itself would only be the logic result of leagues like ESL slowly dieing.

                                And that part with the social networking just made my day. I didn't want to put it so rudely
                                veritas filia temporis

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