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What UT doesn't need. An essay.

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    #46
    Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
    Well just posting a link here wont explain much. This source just states that "achievements" are a natural need, but it doesnt answer the question if you really feel like you achieved something when you get 5000 total headshost. I doubt it.
    If you have read it enough, you would see this lines too...

    Going further, such statistics can help developers work out how gamers are playing their games. For example, the third most unlocked achievement in TF2 is "Race For the Pennant – Run for 25 kilometers", indicating that the majority of players are extremely mobile when playing. The statistics also suggest it is far easier to survive being burned, bludgeoned and receive explosive damage in one life (Rasputin) than it is to survive a direct hit from a rocket (Crock Block).

    Knowledge of these numbers can help developers tinker with their games. If players move around a lot in TF2, it might help to tweak map-design to increase the player's fluidity of movement. Alternatively, if players move around too much and cause the game to become confused and chaotic, it may be wise to alter the map so that it hinders player movement and encourages them to think more tactically.
    Also this one...

    Achievements might evoke a natural psychological response, but they don't force themselves upon you.
    This is the final paragraph of the said link...

    Actually, that's a good word to keep in mind when thinking about achievements: natural. Achievements cater to a natural human need, the desire for a feeling of accomplishment, no matter how arbitrary or superficial that accomplishment may be. As a species we like to set challenges for ourselves to overcome. It happens in sports, in business, even in our daily routines. We strive to excel in whatever we pursue, and gaming is not exempt from that rule. Ultimately, achievements supply a demand, and because of the way we're psychologically constructed, it's a demand that will never truly be fulfilled.
    So yes, you may not be thinking that achievements are necessary, even hate them. But that won't lower the number of people who actually takes a look at them, evaluates the mistakes s/he's doing and starts to work towards them. You may think UT doesn't need vehicles but according to a poll here, 39% of us want Onslaught, 26% want vCTF. Maybe you won't ever, EVER touch this game modes but other people will do. Maybe it'll be the ONLY modes they'll play. You never know. That's why I said "Of course not everyone feels that way but if we want new players to join the community, we have to cover all bases while retaining competitive scene in mind.". Covering all bases. Not doing a barebone Arena FPS. Not doing a semi-finished product with "potential" in it. We need to do a full-fledged, standing tall game that holds his own weight and more. People will play for 15 minutes and decide to play no more if we service them a "potential" of a game; they'll need a full game right from the start. Bugs, glitches are the downsides of a release and, guess what, extras (including achievements, developer commentary, behind the scenes videos, concept arts, even a video collection of trailers) will add up to a nice gaming experience.

    We may be all veteran, professional gamers or from the competitive scene but the game only needs to be competitive in gameplay, map/weapon design, the core mechanics... Otherwise it'll be only played by those and shunned by the others who can't get into the game or "What's the point?".

    You have to think everyone that'll play the game, you have to look from everyone's perspective. That's what this community lacks most.
    Tiny Details That Should NOT Be Forgotten & Dynamic Arenas & UT4 Storyline - Story Design & Gametype Designs: Volleyball - 3-Way CTF & Smartphone/Tablet Integration

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      #47
      Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
      You have to think everyone that'll play the game, you have to look from everyone's perspective. That's what this community lacks most.
      I wasn't a pro when I started to play UT

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        #48
        Achievements in Unreal Tournament...
        I knew it was a bad decision to open the forum to everyone. Lets get all the dudebros in this game and even better port it to consoles! **** Yeah!




        Edit: To shed some light on this argument, I think your reasonings are off. Achievements are artificial pats on the back, nothing more nothing less. They have absolutely nothing to do with the game or how one perceives it. Back in the days there were no achievements because playing the game and getting better at it was the gratification you wanted and ultimately what kept you playing/practicing.
        In other words if the process of playing a game isn't fun for you, maybe you are not a gamer.
        Last edited by raeg; 05-15-2014, 11:05 AM.

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          #49
          Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
          If you have read it enough, you would see this lines too...



          Also this one...



          This is the final paragraph of the said link...



          So yes, you may not be thinking that achievements are necessary, even hate them. But that won't lower the number of people who actually takes a look at them, evaluates the mistakes s/he's doing and starts to work towards them. You may think UT doesn't need vehicles but according to a poll here, 39% of us want Onslaught, 26% want vCTF. Maybe you won't ever, EVER touch this game modes but other people will do. Maybe it'll be the ONLY modes they'll play. You never know. That's why I said "Of course not everyone feels that way but if we want new players to join the community, we have to cover all bases while retaining competitive scene in mind.". Covering all bases. Not doing a barebone Arena FPS. Not doing a semi-finished product with "potential" in it. We need to do a full-fledged, standing tall game that holds his own weight and more. People will play for 15 minutes and decide to play no more if we service them a "potential" of a game; they'll need a full game right from the start. Bugs, glitches are the downsides of a release and, guess what, extras (including achievements, developer commentary, behind the scenes videos, concept arts, even a video collection of trailers) will add up to a nice gaming experience.

          We may be all veteran, professional gamers or from the competitive scene but the game only needs to be competitive in gameplay, map/weapon design, the core mechanics... Otherwise it'll be only played by those and shunned by the others who can't get into the game or "What's the point?".

          You have to think everyone that'll play the game, you have to look from everyone's perspective. That's what this community lacks most.
          Bingo.

          In the few days I've been here, I've read so many one-sided arguments. This is not how a community should help design a game and if this continues, I think that Epic will change how things are done with community involvement.

          In the end, Epic will be the ones to decide what goes into the game. Not being able to see when new features are introduced will only hinder the game in the long run. I seriously think that adding new things into UT like achievements may have the effect of making the game feel like CoD or something, when in fact they're just as you said - a need people have for personal and social accomplishment, which is a major carrot on a stick for keeping the game exciting.

          So what do "5000 headshots" mean? To some people it's a silly number. To others, it's seeing their friend got that achievement and they didn't, so they hone their skills because their friend Fred got the achievement and now they have to. That helps competition. I also like to see what people have accomplished.

          And I'll say this again, in bold so people don't miss it: achievements are nothing more than collected stats. Regardless of whether or not the game does this for you automatically, you know **** well that people will be looking at the raw numbers anyway.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by starman View Post
            I also like to see what people have accomplished
            But it'S not an accomplishment, that's the problem, really. If you feel the need to get a huge shiny medal popping up on your monitor because you just farted very loudly, then I don't think you are the right audience for an arena fps. It'S a PC only game, and I hope to the gods of the internet that this desease hasn't spread on to this platform, because it's mainly a console thing and that'S the audience we don't want and don't cater to in the first place.

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              #51
              Originally posted by raeg View Post
              But it'S not an accomplishment, that's the problem, really. If you feel the need to get a huge shiny medal popping up on your monitor because you just farted very loudly, then I don't think you are the right audience for an arena fps. It'S a PC only game, and I hope to the gods of the internet that this desease hasn't spread on to this platform, because it's mainly a console thing and that'S the audience we don't want and don't cater to in the first place.
              PC games have achievements. Steam games have achievements.

              It's obvious you haven't read anything about this topic, and I'd venture to say you're the wrong audience for a collaborative discussion if you're going to derail the topic by talking about farting.

              Comment


                #52
                Why so much hate on achievements? I like them just fine, most of the time I just ignore them. It would be a bit silly for UT to not have them.

                That being said, the achievements in UT3 were terrible. Grinding achievements are dumb. It's better when it's things like "killed someone with a shock combo while dropping from a ledge" or something.
                HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by starman View Post
                  PC games have achievements. Steam games have achievements.
                  AND WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT OTHER GAMES
                  Sorry for the caps, but you are an ignorant. Quake 3 Arena has the railgun, we should implement it too I think, what you think guys
                  Seriously, why you keep saying "others have it" instead of providing A GOOD REASON to implement them? You can't find it or what?

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by van Kuss View Post
                    AND WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT OTHER GAMES
                    Sorry for the caps, but you are an ignorant. Quake 3 Arena has the railgun, we should implement it too I think, what you think guys
                    Seriously, why you keep saying "others have it" instead of providing A GOOD REASON to implement them? You can't find it or what?
                    I and several others have given very good reasons to have them in the game, YOUR ignorance chooses to ignore them.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by starman View Post
                      I and several others have given very good reasons to have them in the game, YOUR ignorance chooses to ignore them.
                      loool yeah achievements will bring more people and they'll stick longer to the game, sure. Keep dreaming you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm done talking with you.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by van Kuss View Post
                        loool yeah achievements will bring more people and they'll stick longer to the game, sure. Keep dreaming you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm done talking with you.
                        I think I have quite a bit more experience than you do.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
                          Maybe you won't ever, EVER touch this game modes but other people will do. Maybe it'll be the ONLY modes they'll play.
                          thank you, you just supported the argument that some players are just looking for a different game.

                          Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
                          We may be all veteran, professional gamers or from the competitive scene but the game only needs to be competitive in gameplay, map/weapon design, the core mechanics... Otherwise it'll be only played by those and shunned by the others who can't get into the game or "What's the point?".
                          I still think you have a wrong idea of what "competitive" means.

                          Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
                          You have to think everyone that'll play the game, you have to look from everyone's perspective. That's what this community lacks most.
                          Originally posted by starman View Post
                          Bingo.

                          In the few days I've been here, I've read so many one-sided arguments. This is not how a community should help design a game and if this continues, I think that Epic will change how things are done with community involvement.
                          You don't really see the difference between one-sided arguments and arguments against major gaming titles influencing the game negatively.

                          Originally posted by starman View Post
                          I seriously think that adding new things into UT like achievements may have the effect of making the game feel like CoD or something, when in fact they're just as you said - a need people have for personal and social accomplishment, which is a major carrot on a stick for keeping the game exciting.
                          I think you wanted to say that me and van Kuss, mastermaniac, raeg and others think that adding things like achievements will make the game feel like CoD.
                          And this is nothing else than entirely true. And why do people need social accomplishments in an online fps? There is just something wrong with people nowadays.

                          Originally posted by starman View Post
                          So what do "5000 headshots" mean? To some people it's a silly number. To others, it's seeing their friend got that achievement and they didn't, so they hone their skills because their friend Fred got the achievement and now they have to. That helps competition. I also like to see what people have accomplished.
                          and again, you totally don't understand what competitive gaming means.
                          It has absolutely nothing to with people wanting more achievements than their friends. Nothing.
                          edit:excuse me but you said that you have more experience than us?
                          Originally posted by starman View Post
                          Regardless of whether or not the game does this for you automatically, you know **** well that people will be looking at the raw numbers anyway.
                          so wheres the point in doing it automatically then?


                          EDIT:

                          GUYS please I try to keep this discussion professional and serious. Although I agree that I myself am close to freak out like van Kuss. But for the sake of the game I won't.
                          Last edited by Zoddom; 05-14-2014, 01:41 PM.
                          veritas filia temporis

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                            Why so much hate on achievements? I like them just fine, most of the time I just ignore them. It would be a bit silly for UT to not have them.

                            That being said, the achievements in UT3 were terrible. Grinding achievements are dumb. It's better when it's things like "killed someone with a shock combo while dropping from a ledge" or something.
                            Agreed. I also don't care for achievement in the least, but to think a game of this profile can strive in today's market without them is naive.

                            Anyway, while I don't care about achievements, those of the kind you mention sometimes can be nice in a way. Not for something you grind and try to do, but as a memery trigger for some funny and exotic moments that happened while you were playing. I once took a loot at my achievement list in CS:GO just to see what was there, and found a few things that quickly reminded me of those nice and interesting situations that rarely happen.

                            Anything on the vein of "Two headshots with a single Sniper shot" and the likes are the best choice for "achievements" to put in the game.
                            DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

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                              #59
                              If you seriously can't understand how achievements push competition, then you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
                                Agreed. I also don't care for achievement in the least, but to think a game of this profile can strive in today's market without them is naive.
                                So when you say you don't care for achievements I think you would consider yourself to be part of the majority of gamers. Not really caring about if they are there because they don't disturb.
                                Then tell me how it makes sense saying it was naive to think such a big title like UT couldnt strive on the market without them when most of the players dont even care about them?
                                Have you actually heard of anybody saying he doesn't like a new game because it doesn't have achievements?
                                Or to put it the other way round, have you heard of anybody who wants information on achievements when a new game is announced?

                                Originally posted by starman View Post
                                If you seriously can't understand how achievements push competition, then you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
                                Okay, listen. I said I wanted to keep this discussion professional and serious. But it is hard to manage, when you keep insisting on competitive gaming being hunting after your friends achievements, because this is jkust not true at all.
                                veritas filia temporis

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