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What UT doesn't need. An essay.

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    #61
    Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
    So when you say you don't care for achievements I think you would consider yourself to be part of the majority of gamers. Not really caring about if they are there because they don't disturb.
    Then tell me how it makes sense saying it was naive to think such a big title like UT couldnt strive on the market without them when most of the players dont even care about them?
    Have you actually heard of anybody saying he doesn't like a new game because it doesn't have achievements?




    Okay, listen. I said I wanted to keep this discussion professional and serious. But it is hard to manage, when you keep insisting on competitive gaming being hunting after your friends achievements, because this is jkust not true at all.
    And who are YOU to tell me I'm wrong? Seriously...

    So far as I'm concerned, you're a nobody loudmouth. I'm trying to keep this respectful, but this is degenerating into internet forum BS.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by starman View Post
      And who are YOU to tell me I'm wrong? Seriously...
      So far as I'm concerned, you're a nobody loudmouth. I'm trying to keep this respectful, but this is degenerating into internet forum BS.
      I have stated it right in the first post. I first played UT in 2002 and I started playing (CS) competitively in 2006. So you can't say that I don't have enough experience to be able to know what playing competitively means.
      The way you argue just let me conclude that you don't have any experience in real competitive gaming.
      veritas filia temporis

      Comment


        #63
        Google's take on achievements:

        Achievements can be a great way to increase your users' engagement within your game. Achievements can encourage players to experiment with features they might not normally use, or to approach your game with entirely different play styles. They can also be a fun way for players to compare their progress with each other and engage in light-hearted competition.
        https://developers.google.com/games/...s/achievements

        Blizzard's take on Achievements (World of Warcraft)

        Blizzard's Jeff Kaplan said:

        We found that players are always looking for bragging rights and recognition of their past accomplishments, It’s more to feel like you got a trophy for doing something special, but in no way would this increase your character power. We didn’t want to force you into weird sorts of gameplay that you wouldn’t be doing anyway; we wanted it to more be sort of a reflection of what players were already doing.

        At first we were coming up with other names like accomplishments, goals, medals — anything to not call them Achievements, We sort of came around to the conclusion that all players call them Achievements. Steam has a great Achievement system, Xbox has a great Achievement system; it’s almost just like this weird game at a certain point to not call them Achievements.
        http://www.giantbomb.com/achievements/3015-29/

        And you wanted a scientific research (specifically you wanted to prove them as "unnecessary" and "pointless" but I found a research that says "From the perspective of the achievement system, an achievement appears as a challenge consisting of a signifying element, rewards and completion logics whose fulfilment conditions are defined through events in other systems (usually games). From the perspective of a single game, an achievement appears as an optional challenge provided by a meta-game that is independent of a single game session and yields possible reward(s).")

        http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uplo...1307.59151.pdf

        Have fun reading.
        Last edited by Tycerax; 05-14-2014, 02:17 PM.
        Tiny Details That Should NOT Be Forgotten & Dynamic Arenas & UT4 Storyline - Story Design & Gametype Designs: Volleyball - 3-Way CTF & Smartphone/Tablet Integration

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          #64
          Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
          I have stated it right in the first post. I first played UT in 2002 and I started playing (CS) competitively in 2006. So you can't say that I don't have enough experience to be able to know what playing competitively means.
          The way you argue just let me conclude that you don't have any experience in real competitive gaming.
          OMG. Seriously? You think that just because you played one game competitively since 2006 that you know more than me?

          Buddy, I've been gaming since *1977*.

          EDIT: I'm still laughing.
          Last edited by starman; 05-14-2014, 02:12 PM.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
            Google's take on achievements:



            https://developers.google.com/games/...s/achievements

            Blizzard's take on Achievements (World of Warcraft)



            http://www.giantbomb.com/achievements/3015-29/
            And here's another one that I suggest you to read (Watch out it's more than three lines of text)
            http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-ar...--166646.phtml

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by Tycerax View Post

              Blizzard's take on Achievements (World of Warcraft)
              That's funny because the only achievements that are actual achievements were exactly what he describes they were not :3

              Okay lads, you forget the most important thing, Unreal Tournament already has achievements, always had.
              HEAD-SHOT DOUBLE KILL TRIPLE KILL MONSTER KILL FLAK MONKEY HEADHUNTER DOMINATING GODLIKE ect
              Why is this not enough, I really don't get where you are coming from and I also don't get why we are having this discussion when the game hasn't even one single line of code yet....
              Or why this is such a huge thing for you guys. It was and is plain cosmetic **** that doesn't add anything to a game, and especially doesn't make it any better. No matter how much links you post or repeat that it does, there is no single effing factual argument for that claim.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Tycerax View Post
                Google's take on achievements:

                https://developers.google.com/games/...s/achievements

                Blizzard's take on Achievements (World of Warcraft)

                http://www.giantbomb.com/achievements/3015-29/
                Are you serious? Especially the article from WoW is just full of utter BS.
                "We didn’t want to force you into weird sorts of gameplay that you wouldn’t be doing anyway; we wanted it to more be sort of a reflection of what players were already doing."
                Seriously? The amount of stupidy in this sentence is just mind boggling. It just proves that achievements are utterly needless.

                The text from google just sounds like an ultra cheap advertisement text to make developers implement achievements.

                You cannot be serious about this please. We have seen what happened to consoles, which once were only about starting a game and having fun, and now they are full of social networking sahring **** and achievement junk.

                I am sorry that I have to put it so rudely, but there is just no other way to express what I feel about this.

                Originally posted by starman View Post
                OMG. Seriously? You think that just because you played one game competitively since 2006 that you know more than me?

                Buddy, I've been gaming since *1977*.

                EDIT: I'm still laughing.
                Now not just because I did this. It's because of how I did it. Competitively that is to say.
                It doesn't matter if you played for 100 years or more. If you have only played games like candy crush, as an extreme example, or just Counter-Strike on public servers then you have no idea about what competitive gaming means.
                veritas filia temporis

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  [...]i've already seen teams full of great DM/TDMers get destroyed by guys who barely played any of those game modes, only because of map awareness. This is the proof, in my opinion, that vehicules base game modes are relevent in a UT game.
                  I don't understand your argumentation, please explain how this is a proof.
                  Well, it is relevant as you can still improve yourself at this game, even if you are the best DMer in the world. I’m always finding ways to improve myself. If I find I can’t be better at this or becoming better gets more and more difficult (being at my peak), I find other ways of improving my gameplay. I can get 0-15 by a guy in a duel, yet destroying him on a bigger vCTF/Warfare map 1v1 (when this happen, since it’s a team game anyways). Gameplay is so different it really gives something to the game. Betrayal, for example, doesn’t add anything. You are good with the shock rifle or just good in instagib modes in general? Well you’ll most likely be good in that.
                  Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  They do introduce new gameplay elements and strategies. [...]I am more of a team player. Personnaly I'm not able to play DM/TDM for long periods of time.
                  I am getting the feeling that you are that kind of player which van Kuss described. I also think you are looking for a different game, and that has nothing to do with you being more of a team player. UT is also a teamgame without vehicles.
                  Please refrain using the kind of attack on me. You don’t know me first, as I’ve never played against you. UT99 was a team game without vehicles, 2k4 and ut3 weren’t, since those game modes are part of the game since the beginning. I am a UT3 player (was young when 2k4, but played countless iCTF game back there in 2004/2005, and almost a baby when I begin to play ut99). I’ve not mentioned if I was competitive or not because it doesn’t make your argumentation more relevant. If you need stats from me in order to take my comments for relevant, you can always type my name in any site that gives you UT3 stats. If you plan on arguing with be, please don’t be condescending. Ha and if you quote me, don’t cut my argumentation on the middle. I can make you say anything I want this way.
                  Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                  Originally posted by Alex1902 View Post
                  [...] but let's not forget the game is also about fun, so achievements could be implemented with no harm to the core of the game.
                  But that also does not explain why this game needs achievements.
                  Well, yeah it explains it well, it’s about fun. I like having some sort of secondary goal when playing a game, and when I’m not even thinking about achievements, it’s funny to go check them out and be “Oh wow, I’ve used 10 mins of invul, how did I manage to get that power up so often when it is that rare”. You were also talking about resources being taken from the core to do those implement those “optional” things. As a student in software engineering, I can tell you that achievements, in the whole process, doesn’t take that much of those resources. Since most achievements are directly linked to the core (for example kills, kills per guns, power ups taken) and stats being in the core, it doesn’t take a lot of time making an achievement to kill 1000 people for example. You already got this programmed somewhere. It’s just to get the stat and put some sort of notification when the target is achieved.

                  As I said before, I have absolutely no problem with focusing on Deathmatch and Capture the Flag. I would have done the same. Anyone would have. This is the base of any UT game and failing this would make bad game. However, as I also said before, you can’t exclude all the players that like to play on bigger maps with vehicles. In UT3 those game modes are the only one surviving right now (well on Europe, NA is pretty dead). In 2k4, it’s the opposite. 2k4’s community is bigger, but is doesn’t make UT3’s community less relevant.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                    So when you say you don't care for achievements I think you would consider yourself to be part of the majority of gamers. Not really caring about if they are there because they don't disturb.
                    Then tell me how it makes sense saying it was naive to think such a big title like UT couldnt strive on the market without them when most of the players dont even care about them?
                    Have you actually heard of anybody saying he doesn't like a new game because it doesn't have achievements?
                    Or to put it the other way round, have you heard of anybody who wants information on achievements when a new game is announced?
                    No, I'm neither the majority nor the minority. I don't care about them because I'm gaming far before them, and because I only care about gameplay and instrinsic rewards. Achievements are extrinsic rewards, which pretty much means "work".

                    I said it's naive because times have changed. What I mean it that it's too idealistic to believe everybody else doesn't care about them. A lot of people do, and betting everything on the opposite is a sure way to lose it.

                    People only look if games have achievements if they're in a platform where they care about achievements, like Steam, and mostly only for crappy and cheap games. What happens though is that a lot of the new generations of gamers believe achievements have value. It's not something you can simple tell them "no it doesn't" because they'll simply disagree with you. Detaching from those meaninless extrinsic feedback loops takes time.

                    Instrinsic feedback loops are far more rewarding, but also require more skill to reach. Unreal Tournament itself has always had short term feedback loops in the same sense. The announcer screaming "Headshot", "Double Kill", "Monster Kill" is much like a pop-up window saying "This is the first time you score more than 20 frags in a match! You're getting better, you know? See how this game is cooler than you first though?", except less awesome we have to agree. See, that's not exactly what achievements literaly say, but that's what they mean. They are designed to give new players this sense of progression.

                    Back then we would be destroyed 30-0 by a seasoned player and leave the match thinking "**** I was destroyed, but at least I learned a new thing or two with that guy. I wanna become as good as him!", but not everyone is naturally suited to see the bright side of things, the almost-filled cup. What most people think is "a **** I'm playing this game all week and only getting destroyed, I'll never be good at it, better go play something else", which mostly happens far before that player is able to hang around enough in the game to fall in love with it. Specially today where there's tens of times more competition than it was back in 2004, wich in turn had more competition than it was in 1999.

                    Why stick to and dedicate lots of time to a game you're only getting destroyed at while there are 10 more games coming out every month that you don't even have time to play them all, and you backlog is in reaching the hundreds with games you bought and didn't even find time to launch for the first time yet?

                    Which achievements, that generation of players is constantly reminded that they are improving, and sometimes even made to believe they are while they aren't really, just to increase their confidence of "getting as good as that guy some day". So when they're destroyed 30-0 they game can leave the game thinking "Oh I was destroyed but at least I got my first headshot ever, and also got an achievement for 'Being destroyed 30-0 by an awesome long time player!', so it was not all that bad or wasted time".

                    It's all about psychology. And no matter what we do, we can't instantly "open people's minds" or "teach them to Less Q.Q More PewPew" and hope they just "get it". They won't. But they still are potential future diehard fanboys of the game, that will keep it strong and alive for the next 10 year. Except that will never happen if they leave before the game "clicks" and hooks them forever.
                    Last edited by luauDesign; 05-14-2014, 02:35 PM.
                    DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

                    Designer at Candango Games. Check my Gamasutra Blog.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Unless your name is Fatal1ty, I don't care how many hours you put into competitive gaming. You're not going to magically change my mind just because you played CS competitively. Unless you can make strong arguments, don't make any. Saying "bleh...I'm a competitive CS player" means nothing to me. You're one in a million.
                      Last edited by starman; 05-14-2014, 02:30 PM.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        @Alex:

                        I didn't want to attack you and I didn't want to alienate your argumentation. I just did point out that some of your arguments lead to the conclusion that you you like another type of game more than UT. Especially when you speak of other ways of improving.
                        The way you argue that if "a DM player cannot improve anymore he can still improve by playing vehicle modes", is just like when you say that "if a player of a game cannot improve anymore he can still improve by playing a different game".
                        Do you see my point?

                        @starman:

                        you see, luauDesign actually made some good points, while your way of argumentation is more and more getting worse. If your idea of competitive gaming is totally wrong then it does matter if I have any experience, because then I know what competitive gaming really means.

                        However still disagree with luauDesign that players need a special achievement to let them notice that they have made their first headshot or totally got wrecked. It has always worked without achievements and nowadays everyone assumes players are suddenly completely retarded (Im very sorry that I have to say it like this) and need a notification for every insignificant thing they did.
                        veritas filia temporis

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Zoddom View Post
                          @Alex:

                          I didn't want to attack you and I didn't want to alienate your argumentation. I just did point out that some of your arguments lead to the conclusion that you you like another type of game more than UT. Especially when you speak of other ways of improving.
                          The way you argue that if "a DM player cannot improve anymore he can still improve by playing vehicle modes", is just like when you say that "if a player of a game cannot improve anymore he can still improve by playing a different game".
                          Do you see my point?

                          @starman:

                          you see, luauDesign actually made some good points, while your way of argumentation is more and more getting worse. If your idea of competitive gaming is totally wrong then it does matter if I have any experience, because then I know what competitive gaming really means.

                          However still disagree with luauDesign that players need a special achievement to let them notice that they have made their first headshot or totally got wrecked. It has always worked without achievements and nowadays everyone assumes players are suddenly completely retarded (Im very sorry that I have to say it like this) and need a notification for every insignificant thing they did.
                          You keep talking about YOUR experience with competitive gaming, yet you fail to show why your opinion matters. All you say is "I was competing". So what? You're ONE GUY out of millions, so essentially your experiences mean nothing. You could be the ONLY person who thinks that way. If Epic makes achievements optional, will you still care?

                          As for Epic themselves, they do have an API for achievements, which I mentioned before and people seem to ignore, so I'll just post the API links:

                          https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest...eam/index.html
                          https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest...ull/index.html

                          As you can see, Epic has calls for Steam and Null, which means that someone can develop an achievement system if they like.

                          So again, if YOU think achievements won't be in UT, I suggest you look at Epic's own work and think hard about that opinion.

                          EDIT: It's also clearly obvious you've never been in a design meeting.
                          Last edited by starman; 05-14-2014, 02:57 PM.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Fair enough. As you, i'm just stating an opinion. But I can assure you a DMer can improve his pure weapons skills in big open spaces. It's not close quarters, and a thing i've seem from most DMers is that they are not that good (don't get me wrong, still way better than the average player) when it comes to 1v1 when the other as always the vision on him. You could say you can improve in big CTF maps for example, but I still see a difference between this and even bigger maps. Anyways, this is an opinion, you can always try it for yourself if you want (well maybe you can't if you play ut99, ut2K4's servers are empty and if you are in NA in UT3 haha).

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by starman View Post
                              You keep talking about YOUR experience with competitive gaming, yet you fail to show why your opinion matters. All you say is "I was competing". So what? You're ONE GUY out of millions, so essentially your experiences mean nothing. You could be the ONLY person who thinks that way. If Epic makes achievements optional, will you still care?
                              I do not understand what you want to say with this. Yes I am one of millions of competitive players, thus I know what competitive gaming is.


                              Originally posted by starman View Post
                              So again, if YOU think achievements won't be in UT, I suggest you look at Epic's own work and think hard about that opinion.

                              EDIT: It's also clearly obvious you've never been in a design meeting.
                              I didn't say anything about what I think will be in the game. This whole thread is about what I think UT does not need. Nothing more. And furthermore, this forum is for the community to put their ideas to help the developement, so why do you keep saying I should just stop because the developers will do what they want?

                              You are right though that I have not been in a design meeting, but I don't see how that has any significance.
                              veritas filia temporis

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Great essay, even if I didn't agree.

                                I'm of the mass-collaboration opinion, and JUST my individual one, that every idea and theory should be posted up, not discouraged. We can always kill our darlings later, as they say in the writing business.
                                Protocol is our alt-fire function.

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