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    Reasoning Behind Player Scale Increase? + Thoughts

    This is a thread concerning the player scale, lets try to keep the responses localized to that. If your response is not related to player scale, please post it in a different thread.

    I usually wait a little bit longer before making judgements, so this thread isn't going to be me pre judging the new player scale increase.

    With that said, I'm interested in the reasoning behind the player scale increase, and more specifically, why a number like 15% was chosen instead of 10% or 7.5%. What exactly about 15% made it the golden ticket?

    I had a chance to play Lea and DM-Sand using the new player scale increase, and here are my observations.



    From a first person player perspective


    You definitely feel taller. Moving around the map felt different. Not quite sure how to describe it. Felt like I was landing sooner in some instances.


    From a third person perspective

    Your character looks gigantic relative to the environment. The player model seems to occupy more space than previous builds (as he should considering a player scale increase logically means you occupy more space). The question is: Is the player model now too big? It's too soon to tell since I've had the build for only 1 day, and have been playing UT for over a year. It's going to take time for me to come to a real consensus concerning this.


    From a player vs player perspective

    I haven't tested this yet against players. I did test it against bots. I can predict players will be easier to hit since they're now noticeably bigger. It'll be harder to avoid getting hit, since you're 15% larger on your opponent's screen.


    Can we test a 7.5% player scale increase instead in a future build?

    If the scale increase is required, then I'd advise testing 7.5% instead. That's usually how I test things in the editor. I try halving values until I get that perfect middle of the road value.


    Feels like UT3 vibe
    I unfortunately, sad to say it, felt a UT3 vibe. This is the first real change to UT that had me scratching my head thinking, "feels like UT3?" Those of you in the community know that I played UT3 a lot, and those of you who know me better know that I played UT2004 equally, if not more than UT3. In other words, I have mixed feelings about this vibe. Do I want "ut2004 small" player models, or do I want "UT3 large" player models? I don't know whether I like it or dislike it. Typically speaking, this community shuns most UT3-esque things, and this may be one of those things that the community considers more UT3-esque than other things. It's something that I think requires a lot of serious consideration for that reason. Bare in mind - I tested this on Lea and DM-Sand, maps of different sizes. Sand, being a much larger map than Lea, didn't give off the same amount of vibe as Lea did, but it was still there. It may simply be limited to maps of smaller scale, or it may take time for the vibe to go away.


    Final Thoughts

    This is not a judgement/doomsday thread, nor do I wish it to become one. I'm sincerely curious why the player model scale was increased, and I'm reserving any ironclad opinions until I've tested things further, and so should the rest of the community imo.

    -Neil (CaptainMigraine)
    Last edited by Neilz0r; 02-02-2016, 04:58 AM.
    Contact me: (Steam: Neillithan) (E-mail: neilvmoore@gmail.com)


    #2
    I like it, It's good for my old eyes
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      #3
      I think, we deffinitely went a bit too far. My guess is 10% would be ideal after playing few games. Right now the game feels bit slow and... gives me a clumsy feeling. I feel like I'm over 2 meters tall

      With all of that, projectile weapons need a lots of tweaking as hitting with RL and flak is now easier than ever. Maybe even shrinking the capsule a bit, if it's possible?

      It helped to gain some visibility, so that's a good thing, but shaders are still underwhelming. Mostly the red team. And there is still this thing with the game looking washed out in the light areas.

      Comment


        #4
        scale of the characters is a bit too big
        game for me runs slower atm and im like alice in wonderland at fov100 and aint gonna check 110 got bad eyes:P
        ps. the killmessage should have option in options for "turn off/on"
        Last edited by sOuL`; 02-02-2016, 05:57 AM.
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          #5
          Agreed with all of your points on this, everything feels clunky ATM.

          Additionally, the maps feel so tiny now, its awkward running around them. Like the flag bridge for each base on CTF-Blank feels much less like im walking across a bridge and more like im just walking on a small board of wood. It's really weird.

          Comment


            #6
            Scale seems fine visually and no real problems with movement either but it's much easier to hit now. I especially noticed it was easier to hit with rockets and sniper. Rockets have always been too easy to hit with in this game, now they're even easier to hit with than ever. Sniper, several times I was like "really? I hit that shot?! And a headshot?! I thought I missed!"

            That was online with 66 ping. 6-8 mostly decent players in but nobody really, really good.
            Last edited by MoxNix; 02-02-2016, 05:18 AM.

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              #7
              In 3rd player perspective the reason why players look so big is just that the camera seems now be a bit too close to the player. Just use mouse wheel and scroll out/away from it, everything looks fine and normal. And overall, I like the increase in player size.

              was a good move, Epic! Feels definitely more like face to face combat ....

              Comment


                #8
                I like the scale. Remember they said they tried higher values then basically halved it already, imo if they don't go big enough it probably wouldn't be worthwhile. Nobody can say players feel like midgets now. Nor do I understand why anyone would even WANT players to look small. Face it, this is already an unpopular genre and we need it to be more accessible.

                Also you can understand why they lowered sniper damage, headshots are considerably easier, so it stands to reason that they lower overall damage.

                I think we need to play more online, much more, at least a month before really judging this, it's got to affect a lot, even prediction.

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                  #9
                  Initially I was positive on the scale change, but as I've played with it a bit more I am not really pleased with it. A step back to 7.5% scale increase would be worth trying out, in my opinion. Overall the change has really created an odd Alice-in-Wonderland feeling of players being too large for their environments (and several areas of maps that are just nonfunctional). In terms of impact on the game, adjusting player movement speed and map scale (for certain maps) would have fewer negatives than changing the player scale.
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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Wail View Post
                    Initially I was positive on the scale change, but as I've played with it a bit more I am not really pleased with it. A step back to 7.5% scale increase would be worth trying out, in my opinion. Overall the change has really created an odd Alice-in-Wonderland feeling of players being too large for their environments (and several areas of maps that are just nonfunctional). In terms of impact on the game, adjusting player movement speed and map scale (for certain maps) would have fewer negatives than changing the player scale.
                    If things feel weird it is because you cannot make this change and just drop it into the existing system without changing fundamentals. You essentially have to go back and build some things from scratch. Here is what I said in the build thread:

                    "Increasing player size does not decrease the actual speed of the game...

                    I have not played the build, but I would say your reaction to the new player scale is predictable since a game should normally be built around a proper player scale and their original scale was way too small. So of course it will not fit directly in with some existing systems and maps. That is why I suggested to halt game development and fix player scale first... I also suggested to increase player size more than 15 %."


                    Now there are obvious things that need to be adjusted soon to make this change seem right, but I won't go into that now and will wait to see if the developers figure it out. But bigger is better!

                    After UT99, player scale/eye height went off track starting with UT2003. It has been twelve plus years that UT has had obvious glaring problems with eye height and player scale and thanks to the community participation, they might just get it right this time.
                    Last edited by ihopenot; 02-02-2016, 07:43 AM.
                    (FOV + eye height + small models + bony character design) = = (visibility FAIL, game feel FAIL, customization marketplace FAIL, Gameplay FAIL)

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                      #11
                      They nailed it as far as I'm concerned or at least I'm fine with this as minimum height requirement. The game characters now give me the same feeling that I get when I play Battlefield: Bad Company 2 or Counter-Strike or Halo. The characters in those games just feel right with the FOV, etc. It's believable, gives me the feeling that I'm there in the game for real, it doesn't remind me that I'm playing a game with midget characters dodging around. Unfortunately, the maps are still at the same scale and some of them now just feel wrong, too small for the current player scale. But I'm definitely not getting a UT3 feeling. UT3 had super insanely small characters. As if the camera was almost on the floor. It was ridiculous. The map now need to be rescaled. Future maps should be just fine.

                      And now that the character height and visibility feels right, I'm finally excited about this game, confident that it will be a great home for future mods. It's not going to be just another UT3.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        What you have to keep this in mind when talking about the scale change is that what map you look at for scale is important. Earlier maps like ASDF will feel tighter than say Chill. Where we are right now, if you look at Chill, the scaling feels right to me. One of the reasons we looked at this in general was that our in-world scale had creeped up a bit. We started by testing 125% (I think or it might have been 120%) and pulled it back to where it is now. I think, personally going to just a 7% increase would be too small of a change to really matter.

                        It's also important to realize there will be fallout from this change (see the broken teleporter on Face). #Prealpha

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by JoeWilcox View Post
                          What you have to keep this in mind when talking about the scale change is that what map you look at for scale is important. Earlier maps like ASDF will feel tighter than say Chill. Where we are right now, if you look at Chill, the scaling feels right to me. One of the reasons we looked at this in general was that our in-world scale had creeped up a bit. We started by testing 125% (I think or it might have been 120%) and pulled it back to where it is now. I think, personally going to just a 7% increase would be too small of a change to really matter.

                          It's also important to realize there will be fallout from this change (see the broken teleporter on Face). #Prealpha
                          Well true. But you can't resize the maps like ASDF as they did feel great for duels but now are a bit... broken(?) It feels cramped but increasing the size of it will make it slow, because of the higher eyeshight. I am really looking forward, how all this will pan out.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i kinda feel it ok for now.
                            played a bit and spectated a bit from 3rd person and it doesnt feel off.
                            but i agree the map scaling is what matters also in this story.
                            to add : game feels much slower than before
                            Last edited by Danko955; 02-02-2016, 09:13 AM.

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                              #15
                              I agree with scaling increase but I already beforehand had the feeling 15% might be just tiny bit too much and 10% might have been better and after having testing it myself now, I think for me personally 10% would roughly have been the sweetspot. 5% of a reduction from THIS build (10% bigger versus previous builds) do make a difference for sure, at least for a perfectionist. :P I'm basing this both on the feel (feels almost a bit like small giants if standing next to a player and feel of the speed ingame that feels slowed down quite a bit) as well as from weapon balancing point of view, I think 10% would just work better in general but I think 15% increase is better than the small player scales before which also always felt off for me.

                              I hope we can test 10% instead of 15% in some way, perhaps can we do this modification ourselves in the editor and make it a mutator or something to be able to test with other players?
                              Last edited by RPGWiZ4RD; 02-02-2016, 09:13 AM.

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