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After Finally Clearing TDM Spacer (Challenge) I'd like to share my Experience...

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    After Finally Clearing TDM Spacer (Challenge) I'd like to share my Experience...

    unfortunately I did not save the final winning score which was by 3 frags, but I do have proof that I'm not lying (I won the match by sheer luck thanks to the enemy AI derping at the right time):


    So what can I say that hasn't already said about this particular challenge... Well instead of telling you what everyone on this forum has already said, I will instead tell you what happened to me physically and emotionally during the process of attempting to beat this one challenge, and then how I felt when I finally beat it. (at least before I go into a rant phase :x ...). The pain and frustrations I felt, attempting many of the strategies recommended in this forum and a few lingering vids, in order to come even remotely close to beating this challenge... Words cannot describe... The mental Strain was so tense, there were times where I nearly felt faint, quite literally ( I think I may have just forgotten to breathe on several moments in the many failed matches I had...). This challenge alone truly defines gaming masochism as it is not something I can truly justify with words without telling you to give it a spin yourself (and believe me, I am not that cruel...). Worst of all, when I finally did beat it, instead of feeling hugely accomplished for not only beating the Hardest Offline Challenge this game has to offer, but obtaining what is probably going to be the rarest skin in the game (due to the BS obtaining requirement), I felt the following:

    -High tension, light headed and nauseous
    -Very Exhausted, as though I had run a treadmill for a good 30-45 minutes (but not in a good way)
    -pain in my wrist and finger joints
    -Anxiety, uneasiness and a bit of Depression
    -Heavy Burning sensation in my eyes

    Among other things, instead of taking my victory to an online match in excitement for doing what possibly very few people have been able to even do, I Quite literally just shut the game off, walked out of my room for 15 minutes and took a breather, with a strong feeling for never ever EVER playing this game ever again, all because of this one unbelievably punishing challenge, but why?... Why would ONE CHALLENGE even deter me from even trying the multiplayer, especially since it's against bots?... Well here's why...

    This set of challenges are supposed to be a type of training mode (similarly seen in Modern Fighting Games), that is somewhat supposed to ease players into the online aspect of it, gradually picking up in difficulty to emulate how it would feel playing against novice players, all the way to players of your skill level in ranked play, or even in pubs... However, when the difficulty spike from Normal to Hard is so drastic that you go from fighting bots that will randomly stand still and demonstrate a type of human error despite being bots, to unrealistically (almost hilariously) difficult Aimbots that will not only track you through walls but will put MJ, the Flash and James Brown to shame with how fast and accurate their evasion generally is all the while their tracking remains on point, then the frustrations that people will feel will become a major obstacle in them learning anything from said challenges...

    The ONLY way I found to beat all the 3 star challenges, let alone the worst of them all, TDM-Spacer... was to exploit the hell out of their limited/scripted program to follow predetermines routes/paths to get easy kills on them. But this not only requires crazy timing, but boring repetition and dumb luck (especially so on team reliant modes, as your derpy AI pals tend to perform way too inconsistently to really be reliable, I mean FFS, the last game I had, my AI partners and I somehow got a 17 Frag lead, but 15-20 seconds after Udamage spawns, the enemy AI team ties it up... What... WHAT?!...). How is ANY human being expected to single handedly hold the lead against cheaters? (cause that is exactly what we are expected to do on Hard...). I know bots are not perfect, and programming human error into them would probably not only be more work than it's worth, but you guys at Epic are already busy enough as is. I also realize that the AI being OP on hardest settings is something that has been a staple of Unreal since Gold (I have it and played it...), but C'MON, How many people do you know who were capable of beating unreal gold on Godlike? and Hell, how many people do you know who can beat that game even on normal today?

    *SIGH* apologies, I did not mean to get so ranty, but this challenge, has been possibly the most frustrating thing I have ever done in my life, and I play hard games man... but there is a huge difference between hard and punishing, and regrettably, as simplistic as Arena Shooters are in nature, they are not known for their user accessibility and newbie friendliness... these challenges don't help paint that arena shooters are welcoming and in fact I believe are doing more harm than good as tutorial or offline content to play around with. To understand where I am coming from, just do this... Put yourself in the shoes of a person who's never ever played a shooter period, or maybe he does play shooters, but they're casual in nature, more accessible so require less entry work. Let's go one step further, let's say you are a former arena shooter vet who retired for along while due to adult responsibilities and what have you, and you wish to get back into them for old time's sake, just to have fun mostly, so what do you do?

    Well, you can choose to either jump right into multiplayer or do some refresher courses in Basic training/Offline Modes (many people that play hard games tend to do this for at least the first while, and for the sake of this example we shall go with the latter...). You learn the movement and run a few obstacle courses, you are demonstrated how the weapons work and fire a few off at training dummies, and then you go into matches with bots... and this is where the pain begins... So here we have these challenges that do a fairly decent job of introducing popular modes and maps in a form that promotes a type of progression system rewarding you for trying higher difficulties, and best part is, that if you are a Cosmetic ***** like many of this generation's gamers (including myself), then you will be exited to know that there is a carrot at the end of the stick which you will get for achieving 45 stars, it sounds rad in paper... but when you get into those hard mode arenas (especially since your bot buddies initially start low lvl...), you suddenly no longer find enjoyment in trying to unlock that ONE exclusive cosmetic, and here's why:

    The hard challenges seem to promote that you play the game almost incorrectly, so much so that I've come to the conclusion that I am now a worse player at UT thanks to forcing myself to learn how to fight these God forsaken godlike bots, than if I were to just play online in the first place, in fact, the hard challenges leave such a bad impression of what you are expected to come across in an actual online environment, that I wouldn't be surprised if 1/2 the people who gave this game a shot, were IMMEDIATELY put off and rage quit thanks to dealing with aimbots right off the bat. Once again, put yourself in their shoes (or in mine, I may as well consider myself a causal at this point :x...), if you are getting absolutely stomped on by non human players, and no matter how hard you try, no matter how good you try to aim, it seems that the only way to compete is to cheat, would you really be upset at them for leaving or actually getting an aimbot program? If they feel they stand no chance against a bot, do you really think they'll think twice in even attempting online multiplayer legitimately or at all? Do you think punishing the player into shape to get them ready for the nitty gritty of arena shooters is still going to work today, in an era where even DOOM 4 (THIS IS DOOM WE'RE TALKING ABOUT) adopted some of the casual aspects of modern shooters for it's mutliplayer thanks to players wanting to put the least amount of effort into getting points/kills/etc. so that they can at least feel they stand a chance, which in turn leads to more fun matches (albeit boring, but still fun for awhile...). The Cold hard truth is... it won't...

    Listen, I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here, cause I sure as hell don't know how to make this game accessible without overhauling a lot of things that will **** off all the loyal fans. Neither am I going to pretend to know how the hell this game is supposed to attract new people, especially people who are just used to the Console Shooter Experience. While I have read plenty of good points and suggestions on how to possibly fix this, I'm also not gonna pretend those solutions could even begin to help at all... What I do know is this, for me, this game is just unplayable... It's too difficult for me to get into (between the lack of time I have to play games and my aging), it's too frustrating and I find myself not having fun, and if I'm not having fun playing a video game, there's something seriously wrong...

    Anyhow, if you've stuck around this long then I appreciate it ;3 ! On a final note, I think I am probably going to take a very long break from UT and get my mind off of all this irritation, probably gonna play the DOOM Single player and maybe a bit of Halo along with Phantasy Star Online 2. I truly wish you the best EPIC, I love a lot of your games and I think it very noble of you to bring back skillful shooters in an era where skill<RNG, so break a leg with UT4! I will continue to love and once in awhile play arena games such as quake 3 and this one, but I don't think I will ever be able to play them seriously...

    -Cheers
    Attached Files
    Last edited by R3D_Belmont456; 05-20-2016, 01:25 PM.

    #2
    yeah the challenges are pretty awful
    i gave up after about 20 odd stars. just wasn't enjoyable, and nowhere near a true reflection of what you'll see online.

    one of the few games i actually enjoyed the training/development modes was in Virtua Tennis. every challenge was difficult, but it was an abstract way to learn specific set of skills that would stand you in good stead for when you went out and played a 'real' opponent

    Comment


      #3
      I think the challenge difficulty step ups are too wide and probably needs to be split into 5 categories. I played UT99 a lot (for a few years) when I was younger and then stopped until UT3 to play off and on, but it gives a good foundation/skill level for playing the game. So, I found the easy modes not worth playing, the medium too easy and hard was a challenge. Some of the maps like CTF are always a bit easier because the bots aren't as fast as human players.

      The big matches, of course, are the likes of Spacer. This took me quite a few goes to finish - mainly because the rest of the team had to play well to avoid losing. Some players who can time items will have got through the level with more ease.

      But that's the thing, the series has been around for 15 years and some players have played throughout and are exceptional. Perhaps they are more interested in the online aspect, but will probably try the challenges and you need the Godlike bots to actually provide a challenge.

      Please remember, though, that the main game is online and that's where the most fun is had. There are players out there that are harder to beat than the Godlike bots and a lot more who aren't! That diversity in play, team play, etc are all things that you won't get playing offline. Offline is a warm-up for online.

      Having said all of that, I think the challenges are just a bonus mode. There should be a single player tournament mode which will be much better for everyone as they can pick their skill level.

      Challenges can be a nice way of seeing progress. If you can't win any of the 3* maps, play online for a while and then try them out to suddenly beat them then that's a good feeling of progress.

      Oh and well done for finishing it!
      Current Main Issues: Tri-Rox (Remove), Scoreboards lack player stats,Team Balance.

      My Pre-Alpha Highlights 2016 to early 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlKQ349o8A | http://plays.tv/u/Smurgl

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Smurgl View Post

        But that's the thing, the series has been around for 15 years and some players have played throughout and are exceptional. Perhaps they are more interested in the online aspect, but will probably try the challenges and you need the Godlike bots to actually provide a challenge.

        Please remember, though, that the main game is online and that's where the most fun is had. There are players out there that are harder to beat than the Godlike bots and a lot more who aren't! That diversity in play, team play, etc are all things that you won't get playing offline. Offline is a warm-up for online.
        This is exactly the point I was trying to get across though, If any offline mode is so tough it discourages the player from even trying the multiplayer, then the game is already off on the wrong foot when it comes to recruiting newer players. Like I said before, if I struggle with Godlike bots, (who are just child's play according to you), then what makes you think I will want to play with someone more skilled then that? That may be fun for the veteran player, but for a player that me, it's not fun... It's torture, it's pain, and if I have to subject myself to that kind of misery for 1-2 years JUST to learn how to play the game, then the game is no longer fun, I would just end up getting so frustrated that I'd move on to something else and drop UT all together...

        I can guarantee you that this is how many of the newcomers to this have felt, and until the veteran players of this series realize that the players that they're trying to attract are NOT from the 90s (and even if they are, some may have grown up and may not even be as good anymore, or have time), and stop with the elitism, this game will never grow passed 100 players if that...

        Comment


          #5
          My first point: As with all threads that revert to the issue of high skilled players facing lower skilled players, shouldn't this be a pointless argument when considering there will be matchmaking based on skill level?

          My second point: Should the challenges be made easier to accommodate lower skilled players? Or should they reflect reality? As mentioned, the higher skilled players will find a way to beat the hardest challenges; they are not impossible, and if you make them too easy they are no longer "challenges".

          My third point: The AI is still not at a point where they play like real people (not to say they can attain this, per se, but they could still be much improved). So that style of gameplay is probably not something you should expect to encounter against real people online.

          My fourth point: The only way you improve is by facing more difficult opponents. Constantly trying to improve your abilities is a major focus of this type of game. Just realize every time you get beat by a better player (or bot), you have something to gain from that defeat. What I'm trying to say is, if you want to improve, you need to be able to recognize your own weaknesses and mistakes and work to overcome them.

          My final point: The great thing about UT is that players of any skill level can have fun with this game, you don't need to be the greatest player to enjoy playing. If you want to be amongst the best, yes, you will need to dedicate a lot of time to this game. But being the best is not the only way to get enjoyment from the game (this is really a personal perspective on an individual basis).

          Hope this helps you to gain some perspective on these bot challenges and playing online. I would not base your expectations for online play according to your offline experience. I know many people enjoy playing bots offline, but that is not what this game is really all about anyway.
          NoBrainsNoAims^ // nbna^
          My movies on YouTube:
          UT2k4: UT~]i[mmortalZ Part 1
          , Part 2 / UT~]i[mmortalZ 2 / UT Immortalz 3
          UT4: Rocket Jumping - Titan Pass

          UT4: Frag Highlights #1 / #2 / #3 NEW

          Comment


            #6
            I agree with all of your points, and until the matchmaker gets both implemented and properly tweaked, this argument will remain relatively valid... but I digress, it would certainly help ease people in to have more casual offline modes, but, well let me explain it in a way that will probably make more sense...

            I really like fighting games (and what you have told me, I have also told others about fighters so I can get your point about improvement), as tough as they can be to learn, they're really fun to play on the couch with my friends and family, whether I am playing the casual fighter that the FGC refuses to accept as an official fighting game, Smash Bros. or I am playing something a bit harder, but still simple enough to enjoy at a noob level, like tekken or soul calibur.

            One of my all time favorite Fighting games finally got released to Windows 10 (Killer Instinct), and I don't love this game just because of nostalgia (cause I used to play this game a ton back when it came out for the SNES in the mid 90s, even my mom got an SNES just to play this game, lol...), but because the new Killer Instinct has possibly the best tutorial any fighting game can ask for (and every fighter should have imo). Not only does it teach you the basic fundamentals of combat, and starts you in the absolute basic level, it also teaches you terminology, it gives you frame advantage charts, it shows you what moves are safe on block/whiff and what that even means, hell, it even has a tutorial for the info display and hitbox, it shows you what each line represents, what to look for when training with hitbox display, it was really overwhelming at first and I somewhat felt the tutorials themselves needed tutorials, but once I got the hang of it, I for once actually understood what I was doing, it not only made me feel more confident in my ability to learn that game, but it literally encouraged me to just jump into multiplayer, it's been a long time since any competitive game made me feel that way, prepared...

            This game not only needs that, but I feel a few offline/online casual modes (not just instagib or freeze tag) like party modes (like in smash bros, or more specifically, Halo Fiesta), where you spawn with a random weapon, and that is all you get for the rest of the match til you die and spawn again, or things like infection mode where one player is the evil overlord while the others just try to survive for as long as possible, game ends when all players are converted to the dark side, or if the survivors last til it times out. Hell, even things like Co-op jump mazes, where the object is to use the game's movement in order to traverse a clever set of jump puzzles or mazes, that would be great! Halo did not just have MLG and CS did not just have ranked demolition.

            I realize that this game is still in Pre-Alpha, and these things may (or may not) come soon, but for a game to thrive, players are needed, and until this game does SOMETHING to encourage players to give this game a chance now, then I don't think it will when it is released, as dozens more games may be released between then and now, and many potential players would just gravitate towards that and leave UT a distant memory...
            Last edited by R3D_Belmont456; 05-09-2016, 03:55 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              Sorry, it was not my intention to sound elitest. Most people that are better than Godlike bots are for the reason you mentioned - bots aren't that clever and can be exploited to a degree. Players don't have as good aim, but they're more unpredictable and creative. Plus, you don't die in such silly ways against humans. The point was as mentioned - experienced players would like to be challenged by the challenges too!

              You are right there needs to be more. I think it does need a vehicle mode, which is the most new player friendly without having a low skill cap. Objective based team games means that player of all levels can have an impact. Look at Overwatch - Blizzard has no DM there.

              The rankings as it stands can help a bit. There are newbie servers which only newer players are allowed in but everyone's stats got reset not too long ago and not that many people are ranked properly.

              Hopefully the matchmaking will rank players near enough correctly so that it just works for everyone. If the player pool is big enough, everyone should settle to about the right level.

              Unfortunately, there isn't a large team working on the game so a lot of time is spent integrating the ever-updating engine, tweaking game play and slowly bringing in additions.

              Again, though, most people will enjoy online more than offline. If you can do the medium challenges you'll be fine - I think going through the pain of completing the 3* challenges is probably because of your personality - I'll be you're a completionist! I tried the tough ones a few times when I got the downloaded the game and then played online for a few weeks and came back to it and it was easier then.
              Current Main Issues: Tri-Rox (Remove), Scoreboards lack player stats,Team Balance.

              My Pre-Alpha Highlights 2016 to early 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlKQ349o8A | http://plays.tv/u/Smurgl

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Smurgl View Post
                I'll be you're a completionist!
                ****... how did you know

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Smurgl View Post
                  The big matches, of course, are the likes of Spacer. This took me quite a few goes to finish - mainly because the rest of the team had to play well to avoid losing. Some players who can time items will have got through the level with more ease.

                  But that's the thing, the series has been around for 15 years and some players have played throughout and are exceptional. Perhaps they are more interested in the online aspect, but will probably try the challenges and you need the Godlike bots to actually provide a challenge.
                  The challenges aren't really ordered by difficulty. TDM-Spacer is hiding in the middle of the challenges and you'd never know from looking at it that it's the "hardest" of the set. Because your bot roster improves as you complete challenges, it's actually a mistake to play the challenges in order, because Spacer will grill you.

                  For that matter, the difficulty isn't in the godlike bots. There's a 1v5 challenge that shows off just how little the bots can really accomplish against a player. It's a perverse combination of the team compositions and the map's design that makes the bots have a particular windfall behavior on Spacer. Tips given for completing this challenge are generally around trying to buff up your team's bots (for example, by letting them have armor), because it's ultimately not your individual skill that determines the outcome of the match (unless, perhaps, you hand out headshots like halloween candy, but then I doubt this would be more difficult than the rest if that's the case), it's how hard your team's bots end up throwing the game, and even then there's a strong element of luck involved.

                  I think you could very well rig the skill of the bots with a hidden factor so that players can only win once out of every 20 matches and Spacer wouldn't feel that different, yet that would give it all the skill of a slot machine.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Bots on the highest difficulty start to become inhumane and just unenjoyable to play against.

                    The things I see bots do on the Godlike is things I would never see online and I start to catch on to their scripting and try and counter it.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I see your point and agree that the hard challenges can be impossible for some players to beat. I'm not that good either, but I played every UT so far and so I got some experience. For a long time I've also been struggling with five remaining challenges to beat on hard mode. But I must admit I also started having fun with these challenges the last days. I saw that video of a guy who beat TDM on Spacer and I thought "I have to be able to also make it!" - and I did it. Today I also won TDM on Outpost 23 after many tries. So I failed a lot, but I also figured out how I have to play the challenge to avoid getting stomped. I established some basic strategies which I followed every match. Ironically I won a try where I didn't play very good and made some greater mistakes, but my teammates did well somehow and I think I supported them quite good anyway.

                      So at the moment I have only 3 challenges left to get the magical 45 stars and these are: DM on Spacer, TDM on Temple and 2on2 on Lea. And I know they will be very hard, I already tried Lea a few times and I had absolutely no chance to win. But I'm looking forward to play and hopefully beat them.

                      I think there are currently three main problems with the challenges:

                      1. The gap between "medium" and "hard" is too big. If you played UT before, you can beat the medium challenges pretty easy even when you play totally brainless. But on hard you get crushed pretty badly.
                      2. I think it's not clear for most players that you should play all solo challenges first to upgrade your team roster. The upgrade system should be adjusted, changed or removed.
                      3. The AI needs tweaks and fixes to make the Team Challenges more enjoyable. For example on Outpost 23 and Lea the bots get stuck on some places, which can get very annoying. And I think the aimbot like skills of the bots have to be lowered slightly. The way they grill you with the link gun is just insane.
                      Last edited by Anduriel; 05-11-2016, 07:05 PM.
                      inUnreal.de - german Unreal Tournament Fansite

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
                        it's ultimately not your individual skill that determines the outcome of the match
                        This is exactly what I found with many of the challenges and it's my main complaint. I don't feel like an agent and that's the most important thing in offline matches. The bots contribute so much in terms of deaths and kills in all the TDMs that almost no matter how good you are, you're disappointed to find that you can win certain challenges only once your team is upgraded and, as the OP rightly pointed out, other challenges are outright maddening because your skill isn't a big enough factor to outweigh your bots' crappiness. That's why the 1v5 was so satisfying -- it only depended on you.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          After having beaten TDM Spacer on hard I have a few thoughts as well.

                          I was able to beat all the other challenges on hard without much trouble, a few restarts here and there. Then I was left with TDM Spacer and my god it was NOT fun and it was not how a challenge is supposed to be. I was able to beat all the other challenges on hard because I had some form of control. Whether it was camping the link gun spawn or making sure no one got the powerups and because of that I was able to have control and get around the severe stupidity that are your bot teammates.

                          I've beaten UT1999-UT3 on Godlike/Insane. Those were a challenge because those bots can and will kill you with any weapon with no problem but that never took the fun out of it and the feeling of beating those games on the hardest difficulty were unbelievable. While they were a pretty big challenge, you still had multiple forms of control and never felt like you had absolutely no control. The UT4 bots are much weaker then their previous forms. They are terrible with basically every weapon besides the link gun which will be brought up again later. They are also stupid at times and very inconsistent. I spent three days on TDM Spacer and I can tell you, as can a few others, that it was not fun. Majority of my attempts were lost because there was simply nothing I could do. Even as a fully upgraded roster, your bots are still pretty stupid and utterly useless, aside from the 6.5 bot. Not only that but your bots are very inconsistent. They will sometimes get like a 10+ kill lead in some games and then proceed to lose that lead in less then a minute or they will feed their asses off like there is no tomorrow. Lets talk a bit more about the inconsistency of your bots. Alot of my games were lost because of that fact because your bots rarely carry their own weight. In all my games it was basically up to me and the 6.5 bot to carry, and we do, but then the lead is lost because the others feed and on numerous occasions the 5.3 bot outperformed the 5.9 bot not only in having more kills but also less deaths which confuses me greatly. TDM Spacer is hard and overly difficult because its very difficult to have control. You absolutely cannot limit the amount of link guns on the map because there are two spawns and since that is the only gun they can even destroy you with, it adds to the difficulty because Spacer is rather small. Small corridors and even the open spaces are pretty small. Perfect for bots that are severely better then yours who are masters with the link gun.

                          The old UT games on Godlike/Insane were a challenge but they were never anything stupid. You could beat them if you know what to control and how. It also helped that you had bots of your own that could actually put up a fight and compete on the same level but majority of the time it had to be you who wins the maps because of strategies and control. There was no RNG with your bots. Your bots WILL show up and put up a fight in order to allow you to pull out a victory and you went into every map(besides the DM ladder in 1999) knowing that for a fact.

                          TDM Spacer is not a challenge or at least not how a challenge should be. The amount of RNG that happens here rediculous. The fact that I had to go into each and every one of my attempts on TDM Spacer hoping and praying that my bots actually showed up and put up a fight to where I could maybe pull out a win, taints the very victory that I wanted and it destroyed any potential feeling I would've had after beating it. I wasn't happy or overly joyed that I finally beat it. I simply felt nothing, or rather, disappointment.

                          If a challenge is going to be hard then it should real reasons on why its hard.

                          /EndRant

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I've tried the TDMs twice and gave up (2v2 on Lea I lost 40-5 and 5v5 on Spacer I lost 140-20 or something like that), and CTF I have no desire to play even for completion. I wish there were more 1v5 challenges, that one was very fun, but the ones you have a team, really, I have no idea how you managed to beat them.
                            DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

                            Designer at Candango Games. Check my Gamasutra Blog.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
                              I've tried the TDMs twice and gave up (2v2 on Lea I lost 40-5 and 5v5 on Spacer I lost 140-20 or something like that), and CTF I have no desire to play even for completion. I wish there were more 1v5 challenges, that one was very fun, but the ones you have a team, really, I have no idea how you managed to beat them.
                              By trying them 100+ times over a period of weeks (TDM-Spacer for example)
                              Me being at best a mediocre player, I agree some of them are based on luck a bit too much (except you're a top player).
                              But I always like challenges.
                              I remember years back it took me weeks to complete "Attack Ship" and "WAR!" in Perfect Dark on Perfect Agent Difficulty setting. (on the n64)

                              However, maybe they could raise the botskill-level of our teammates in some challenges, then it would be less frustrating, especially for newer players.
                              On the other hand the challenges wouldn't be "challenging" anymore for the UT-Vets here...

                              There were quite a few discussions on this topic, just take a look at this thread here (it isn't the only one)

                              Not so easy to find a middle-ground here...
                              Last edited by barsam2a; 05-21-2016, 09:18 AM.
                              WIP - Maps (UT - Build 0.1.12.1): https://goo.gl/v8ze8Y
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