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  • Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
    That was probably the 2nd most hated thing about 2kx after double jumping.
    I'm going to have to call BS on that. Proof, please?
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    • Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
      I'm going to have to call BS on that. Proof, please?
      If it could be proven either way I wouldn't have said probably​.

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      • There are plenty of situations in high level games currently where it is impossible to stop someone getting in your face. Anybody can hide around a corner with flak, it takes no skill do do so but because of the switch time it puts you at a huge advantage. This is completely disproportionate to the amount of "tactical thinking" that went into that move and is just a way for a bad player to get a huge edge over a good player without having to do anything intelligent. There's also ctf to consider where you can literally teleport into someone's face with no warning. The slow switch in ut4 is far to ott and rewards this kind of random play a great deal more than it rewards tactical weapon choice (which basically boils down to holding the shock out at all times because it can deal with all the situations that are impossible to avoid)

        The statement that faster weapon switch was hated in 2k4 is just incorrect and I have no idea where you got that "fact" from other than your own opinion.

        There's a reason ut99 has been played competitively with a fws mutator for the past 10 years. This may be where you get your hatred for fws from as it displays all the problems you described in extreme quantities however making the core game weapon switch speed a reasonable compromise between what we have currently and that speed (i'm thinking somewhere around 2k4 speed, maybe slightly slower depending on final weapon balance) would prevent the necessity of such a mutator in competitive play and would keep the strategic weapon switching elements intact whilst also rewarding mastery of mechanical skill.
        :|

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        • Like you need super mega brain to pick flak in small rooms and sniper in open areas...

          at the moment and it has been said, in a tdm, youre fighting with flak with an ennemy, another enemy shoots sniper from other side of the map = you are dead. FWS means you have a chance, its more fun to play, to watch, it adds depth to the gameplay
          and same thing happens when you are with sniper rifle and someone jumps in with lg or roket, you are dead.

          So you can spec pros playing the same map 10 times, you will always see the same frags.

          the only reason I see about low weapon switch, is that its supposed to be more noob friendly, when fighting (and its non stop in tdm) you stop thinking about wich weapon would be the best, you just use the same weapon during the whole fight. Theres not much "instantaneous decision making".

          I really enjoy ut4, dont get me wrong, but if theres something to change then thats it (and more ammo with enforcer )

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          • WHITE DRAGON PLEASE NO!

            Here's what you do to duel if you allow near instant weapon switching:

            1) You take away tactical depth from the game. Positioning mistakes are mitigated instantly by switching your weapon.

            2) You take away the element of dodging from the game (dodging as in skillfully avoiding fire, not the double-tapping kind). In UT99 you were able to pick fights in positions where you could play with the opponent's range / comfort zone in a fight, avoid shots and make up for an armor deficit. Think of how the opponent has flak and you're balancing perfectly between the comfortable range of his primary fire and the comfortable range of the flak ball. If that opponent has a FWS available, then he or she will change instantly to a hitscan weapon and hit. Therefore the skill of micro-positioning yourself in fights is effectively useless.

            3) You give the guy in control even more control, and it's much harder to come back! If you have a wide array of weapons that switch near instantly, you can fight in any place, any time. The freshly-spawned opponent can't surprise you and pick out a favorable situation with his one single weapon.

            4) You flatten the physical skill curve of the game. The easiest and most primitive form of aiming in an FPS game is hitscan. Can't dodge it, can't position yourself well against it. It's almost entirely up to the shooter to hit or miss with little that the target can do about it. By allowing players to near instantly switch to a hitscan weapon, you're pushing the game much closer to instagib.

            I do feel that it could feel cooler to shoot around in an FFA with a FWS, but there's so much cerebral beauty that you're killing with that change! I would much rather see the primary and secondary firing modes be designed carefully to add some of that instant switch combo flavor!

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            • From my point of view it does not add depth to the game because it creates a dominant option for your weapon choice.
              What we saw in ut2kx was that everyone was running around with the lightning gun because it had the potential for a quick 70 (or more with headshot) damage before instaswitching to the appropiate weapon.

              Having a first best option for any given situation is the opposite of variety.

              and yes, you get jumped in the face by someone with a flak while holding a linkgun you are dead. As you should be

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              • Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                Actually it's just opposite. FWS would reward stupid, overly aggressive play. There's no reason to worry about little details like effective range or RoF when you can just switch on a whim.

                FWS removes a lot of strategy and tactics and just makes it all about twitch mechanics and spamming buttons.

                I know you're coming at this from a dueling point of view but the fact is Duel is already boring enough, we don't need to make it worse with faster weapon switch. It's bad enough now with shock being so good, most high level duels are extremely defensive. If you get aggressive you'll get raped by combos and it'll be much worse if they could switch to and from shock more quickly.
                It doesn't quite work all black and white like that. By your logic I could just claim that the lack of fws rewards players that just hide in a corner with a flak until someone walks by them.
                The opposing player would have no counter-play aside from running away and creating distance, which is everything but fun to watch, fun to play or strategic.

                The game doesn't have more depth without fws. It's not hard to chose the correct weapon for the different areas of the map, it's not something that you could claim would highten the overall skill-cap or enjoyment of the game.
                Quite the contrary, I both as a player and spectator would much rather see duels in which the players keep swapping weapons according to what happens in the fight.

                One player gets low and decides to back away - without fws, he likely gets away. With fws, the chasing player can swap to finish him off with a hitscan weapon.

                Both players fight at medium distance. One dodge forward and then a quick swap to the minigun/flak/rocketlauncher can change that fight in an instant, making correct predictions harder to master.

                Even general map awareness gets rewarded with fws. If my opponent jumps to the teleport down at deck, I can quickly turn around and get one attempt at a sniper-shot. Or maybe get a prediction rocket into windows.
                Thats a multi-layered lasagna of depth right there. Not possible if it takes a year and a half to switch to the appropriate weapon and my opponent, despite doing something rather predictable, gets away unpunished.

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                • Originally posted by Chrissss0r View Post
                  From my point of view it does not add depth to the game because it creates a dominant option for your weapon choice.
                  What we saw in ut2kx was that everyone was running around with the lightning gun because it had the potential for a quick 70 (or more with headshot) damage before instaswitching to the appropiate weapon.

                  Having a first best option for any given situation is the opposite of variety.

                  and yes, you get jumped in the face by someone with a flak while holding a linkgun you are dead. As you should be
                  2k4 didn't let you switch that fast. You had to wait for the gun to reload before you could switch. The reason everyone ran around with hitscan is because it was easier to use and did more damage than everything else and as a last resort you could easily run away and create distance. That's not a problem in this game even with faster weapon switch.
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                  • If you don't think UT was a hit scan fest, you didn't play it enough with sub 30 pings.

                    Even with a drastically shrunk head shot hit box, the RoF on that sniper rifle was range independent. Of course, the other thing was that rockets and flak could actually be dodged in UT.
                    Originally posted by Mysterial
                    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                    • I doubt it'll happen in core gameplay, given how reluctant Epic seem to experiment with this kind of thing, but what I'd really like to try out is some kind of cascading weapon switch time interval.

                      Something like, you can switch really fast right off the bat, but your subsequent switches will be progressively slower. Or perhaps it could be that switching away from a given weapon occurs at a certain speed, but switching back to it becomes substantially slower. The latter in particular would emphasize using all of the weapons, which I find appealing.
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                      • The game as it is now wouldn't change much with fws, it's dominated by big fast chunky overpowered rockets. Get in any reasonable range of your opponent and just whip that bad boy out. Watch some of the epic lan duel games, good players will exploit it just like sniper was exploited in ut99

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                        • Originally posted by nuxx View Post
                          The game as it is now wouldn't change much with fws.
                          It would however make the game faster and more enjoyable. I'd rather play a game that feels good during the balancing process as opposed to something that's frustrating to handle due to big skill limitations.
                          :|

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                          • Originally posted by TheWhiteDragon View Post
                            Now maybe the weapon switch speed in UT2003 was a little bit much. I thought it was a blast, but I can see that it made the game extremely difficult to play for many newer players.
                            That is not necessarily a problem if the Rank system is well implemented. Newcomers should play with newcomers and so they should learn the utility of fast weapon switch at a right pace without being overwhelmed.

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                            • People are talking like switching weapons quickly is some kind of advanced skill... I don't know what to say.

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                              • Originally posted by mbCARMAC View Post
                                People are talking like switching weapons quickly is some kind of advanced skill... I don't know what to say.
                                Not considering that it would make UT even less spectatorfriendly, humm.
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