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  • [PROTOTYPE] Safe Spawn - A ghost protection Spawn system

    Intention
    I had an idea about a different approach of having a spawn protection. The question is why should a player spawn into the worl and having the disadvantages of facing the same opponent after the death and not being able to defend properly. So I came up with a different spawn mechanism. You don't spawn directly as player but as a ghost.

    Ghost protection
    In that mode, you are able to move, to jump for a specific amount of time. You don't have to shoot unless you want. You have to actively join the game as real player by pressing a Fire button, picking up any item, changing the default weapon or just wait until the time runs out.

    There are some advantages of this ghost protection:
    • No invincible player
    • No spawn killing
    • Player can decide how and when to rejoin the match (within the time of course)


    I created a fully functional prototype (a mutator for UT3). I wanted to try it out. Here are some screenshots:
    • Helping message (player spawns in third person):
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    • Timer with bar until respawn:
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    • Additional spawn effect when protection ends (switch to first person):
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    • Ghost as seen for other players (able to shoot and walk through):
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    • Ghost killing a living player:
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    • Being killed by a Ghost:
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    I'm currently working for the full network support so you guys might try it out, if you want to. In general, I think this protection can work. Don't know if the ghost should be seen by other players, but I currently have it setup like that. Not sure about how long the protection should be set by default, by currently 6s feels right to vary your spawn point so enemies can't predict your real-spawn points well.

    Video:
     
    Spoiler



    Playable mutator:
    I created this mutator with the use of UT3, therefore I can provide a fully playable version. It should work flawlessly online or offline. You can get the UT3 mutator on the github page for the mutator:

    UT4 Prototype: Safe Spawn (Source code available under the terms of MIT) [Mirror]




     
    Spoiler
    Last edited by RattleSN4K3; 10-07-2014, 10:32 AM. Reason: Release. Added mirror. New release (new screens)
    ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
    ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

  • #2
    Looks like you put alot of work into this. As a mutator I don't see why not

    I`ll just give my opinion and won't turn this thread into another mess like the other ones, considering you spent time working on this you deserve that much at least

    From a competitive perspective I hate it, I don't mean to bash your thread but this shouldn't be the core built in spawn system

    Things like this really strike fear into me (pickup timers) and makes me question the general direction and helping hands of games these days

    Some reasons

    1) TDM/1v1 tactics are built around controlling areas of the map, its the base of any arena fps game. A system like this adds total unpredictability and chaos. It's like the enemy spawns with invisibility powerup albeit a much shorter time, meaning you`ll have to watch your back ALL the time. It negates the principles of map control and previous arena games like quake,ut,painkiller, whatever else arena fps there are.(warsow/xonitic etc)

    2) There should be a reward for playing this game for so many years, the more you play the better you get, unless you're stubborn, there is always negating factors to peoples skill increase over time. If a experienced player is playing a 1v1 game and he gets killed, when he spawns the first thing he thinks about is how close he is to the enemy, where he died, where the enemy is and plots a strategy straight from the spawn to get a weapon and grab any health or armor that he can. There is huge skill in learning what to do from a spawn and how to turn the advantage around. It works in the opposite direction too, as the fragger.

    3) UT4 has a spawn system where you are forced to the other side of the map when you die, if you are killed from a spawn its YOUR fault. There isn't cheap kills, only predictability of movement. If you spawn on deck at the vials near pulse and run to the pulse gun and get combo'd, that's your fault. It isn't a cheap kill, anyone with experience would know not to do that. I've played 30 or so duels so far in this game and I haven't been closed to being spawn killed, I'm ignoring the fact spawn protection is on. The spawn system doesn't allow for it and experience stops it. TLDR Don't be predictable

    4) Last point I`ll make. Free for all/casual servers should have spawn protection or the system above, it encourages new players to stick around longer and doesn't make it seem like hell to them. Friendly clans/communities will form and they should have the option to enable it on their server. Alot of people prefer playing for fun, I understand and respect that. Just please keep all the features like this, the pickup timers and whatever away from the competitive servers/game. The end result will be keep both sides of the community happy and that can only be a good thing

    Comment


    • #3
      What about arcane temple in 99 rocket launcher area facing out 2spawn spots spawn kill then they spawn 3meters to the left or right. And again and again and again monster killing... fun as hell for the camper not so much for the spawner. Im against spawn protection but i also really cant see the problem with it. Im not too worried as ill end up hosting a server with setup i like. Other will set it up how they time. No harm in giving prople options
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      • #4
        Arcane temple hasn't been played in over a decade ( in the euro scene at least ) , plus UT4 has a totally different spawn system now so I don't see why it holds any ground these days, but yeah it would have benefited from spawn protection on a public deathmatch server. I agree people should have options
        Last edited by nuxx; 09-18-2014, 11:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I actually really like this system displayed from your video. I think starting the player in behind view like that instantly gives them a better view of their surrounds to help them understand where they spawned, if enemies are nearby and what route to take next. Mutator? No, this should be in stock game in a similar form.

          One thing to make sure of though is for players to be able to cancel their spawn protection if they wish and go straight into combat. This could be done by a single mose click in the first second or so of respawn. Any time after that they need to wait the full ghost period so it can't be abused.
          Last edited by Quadj130; 09-19-2014, 04:14 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            As long as you aren't able to pickup guns and powerups in ghost mode, I think it looks great and worth testing for casual gamemodes. Nuxx already explained in detail what I was going to write.
            UT ingame alias: nukkuj
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            Comment


            • #7
              Correct me if im wrong but what i would do is position myself behind a player before this ghost spawn protection expired with the hammer equiped and soon as i appear hammer them.... is this possile with your mod?
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              • #8
                Interessting! Now, lets get serious about this topic.


                Can we implement this in a way, that the way the a players spawns tells us a story?

                A player dies in the arena. Ok. The story here is obvious and told.

                But! How will he come back to life?

                For example:
                The player slowly materializes atom by atom from a central database of big overlord arena AI?
                The process could be painfull and slow and thats why he is not able to do or grab anything in the first few seconds. How to visualize something like that?

                Beeing just "a ghost" will not fit the scifi theme of the game in my opinion. No offence.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The whole screen being in gray scale is quite jarring I think the character being a ghost is plenty indication. For people with show weapon off maybe the cross hair could be different aswell.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some things to correct/comment
                    • As I refactored the code a bit, i forgot to re-implement the "crosshair removal". As long as you are a ghost, the crosshair is removed.
                    • You won't be able to switch to impact hammer while being a ghost. Also, if you intend to pickup a weapon, you won't be protected afterwards anymore.
                    • The current system spawns the player as ghost but it is visible for everyone. Not sure if this or the complete hidden approach fits better.

                    Currently, there is only a warning sound locally played, but I think an ambient sound attached to the player could fit well, so you actually here a nearby ghost (and as he switches, it will play the spawn sound). This ghost sound shouldn't be too loud. As this is just a prototype in a different game, I just wanted to try it out and not implementing it in UT4 (I even don't have the ability to do so due to my outdated files).

                    I hope someone can work on it for UT4 so it can be tested. In general, only if you try something out and see somthing is not good, you know it shouldn't be added afterwards. Even if you know, it might not be as good as other approaches, as long as the developing process allows it, new options, new features, new system should be tested.


                    @the_lc
                    A story That's not my task ^^. But since respawners, inivisble pickup and holographic characters exist, why shouldn't this (a ghost) be real. ^^


                    @nuxx & competive scene:
                    The points are valid. But Duel/(T)DM/CTF isn't the only gametype. There were problems with other gametypes in previous games. The invinicble system never worked right for some reasons. There is also a problem with the applied momentum. The redeemer for instance pushes the invincible players away so he might fall of the map. The deemer is also a timed damage (1.3s in phases), so if you did in the very first milliseconds and respawn, you can actually being hit twice of the same deemer.

                    If this option is toggleable for servers, it can be turned off for these competitive servers (in ranked matches etc.). But as long as the casual games are played, some sort of protection could be added.
                    Spawn system was similar (or quite the same) in UT3 for instance. It worked well. But UT is not all about the competitive scene. Players start as newbies and they should get a helping hand to improve their skill, even if it's on public servers. Spawnkill is the frst thing which let players quit the match/game very quickly.
                    ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
                    ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's so much easier being critical of other people's ideas, even if they are somewhat equal to my own. :P Compared to spawning a player in a temporal flux under spawn protection with no momentum applied, and with a distinct visual and audible effect, and a timer showing how much protection time remains, what are the benefits of being a ghost that everyone can see?

                      I can see one possible fault with no momentum being applied, though; players under ghost protection/temporal flux can grab a weapon without anyone being able to stop them (very annoying if weapon stay is off). Might reach a compromise by applying scaled down momentum.

                      As a ghost:
                      * Telefragging by pressing fire while on top of another player (because a ghost would not have any impact or interaction with other players, but might get away with only the ghost colliding with players)
                      * Ghosts grabbing weapons while weapons stay is off (little risk to ghost, opponent may decorate the base with bio seeing a ghost approach as no shock combo would affect it)
                      * Hearing ghosts would exclude deaf gamers (perhaps a separate game build with visualized sound cues could be done to solve that)

                      The bars seemed to work nicely, though it was a bit confusing to see the bar reset at first (one for "positioning to spawn" and another for the spawn protection time).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post
                        Some things to correct/comment
                        • As I refactored the code a bit, i forgot to re-implement the "crosshair removal". As long as you are a ghost, the crosshair is removed.
                        • You won't be able to switch to impact hammer while being a ghost. Also, if you intend to pickup a weapon, you won't be protected afterwards anymore.
                        • The current system spawns the player as ghost but it is visible for everyone. Not sure if this or the complete hidden approach fits better.

                        Currently, there is only a warning sound locally played, but I think an ambient sound attached to the player could fit well, so you actually here a nearby ghost (and as he switches, it will play the spawn sound). This ghost sound shouldn't be too loud. As this is just a prototype in a different game, I just wanted to try it out and not implementing it in UT4 (I even don't have the ability to do so due to my outdated files).

                        I hope someone can work on it for UT4 so it can be tested. In general, only if you try something out and see somthing is not good, you know it shouldn't be added afterwards. Even if you know, it might not be as good as other approaches, as long as the developing process allows it, new options, new features, new system should be tested.


                        @the_lc
                        A story That's not my task ^^. But since respawners, inivisble pickup and holographic characters exist, why shouldn't this (a ghost) be real. ^^


                        @nuxx & competive scene:
                        The points are valid. But Duel/(T)DM/CTF isn't the only gametype. There were problems with other gametypes in previous games. The invinicble system never worked right for some reasons. There is also a problem with the applied momentum. The redeemer for instance pushes the invincible players away so he might fall of the map. The deemer is also a timed damage (1.3s in phases), so if you did in the very first milliseconds and respawn, you can actually being hit twice of the same deemer.

                        If this option is toggleable for servers, it can be turned off for these competitive servers (in ranked matches etc.). But as long as the casual games are played, some sort of protection could be added.
                        Spawn system was similar (or quite the same) in UT3 for instance. It worked well. But UT is not all about the competitive scene. Players start as newbies and they should get a helping hand to improve their skill, even if it's on public servers. Spawnkill is the frst thing which let players quit the match/game very quickly.
                        But can i position myself behind a player soon as protestion expired i switch to hammer then and hammer them?
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                        • #13
                          Currently, the ghost is visible. And as soon as the protection runs out, the spawn effect (including the original spawn sound) plays. I would turn around and shoot you. Within that time, the hammer charge wouldn't do much damage so you likely be killed a 2nd time.

                          Not sure if telefragging with the ghost-spawn would be good as it might be too over powered. But it could be a fun factor to actually chase someone within the ghost protection.
                          ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
                          ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I polished the mutator so it work for online and offline games (and added a compatible mutator for other gametypes). The mutator is available here:
                            https://github.com/RattleSN4K3/UT4Pr...eleases/latest

                            I think it adds a nice subtle but also helpful spawn protection where the player can choose to be protected or not. And also no momentum gets applied to the protected players so no rockets can lift them into the air.


                            So what you guys think about this idea/contept, the ghost protection? Please, write it down...
                            ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
                            ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by the_lc View Post
                              The player slowly materializes atom by atom from a central database of big overlord arena AI?
                              This is where I thought this image I posted in another thread could come in handy It looks like the guy is being rebuilt from nanobots or something. Could maybe be done with a noise material for opacity and a few layers for the actual materials




                              Why not leave the ghosting at like 2 seconds or something? It doesn't give you a chance to gain a tactical advantage, but it lets you get out of harms way.

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