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Duel and item dynamics/player interaction

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    Duel and item dynamics/player interaction

    This article started as a post as a result of the below comment that was basically ignored. I thought it was interesting.

    You can read here as well. Slightly nicer line length/font size than forum defaults


    The armor system in ut needs an overhaul for duel, both to drive player interaction in a more meaningful way as well as limit landslide games. The problems go deeper than belt being “too strong”. Spawn times and item overlap as well play a much larger and never discussed role.

    Please do not be too put off by the breakdown starting with quake live – the main reason it is structured like this is because the post started as a reply to another post that heavily mentioned ql.

    CC- Says: QL/Q3 is a bit harder to control because of spawn times are staggered. For example, in UT2004, pretty much everything other than 100a in duel has a spawn time of 27 seconds. This creates more simple and patterned ways to control the maps. I think staggered spawn times would be great for real duel gameplay.

    You are looking at it the wrong way and this is the problem with duel in ut from a traditional sense. You are partially right with the comment about control being too easy, but it stems from a more complicated problem than simply times being the same. Times are the same in ql.. so a similar problem should exist there right? Armor times in quakeworld* are the same so the problem should exist there as well? Players should be able to run all the armors in ql (because they are on the same timer) easily and lock everything on the map down?

    *it is not an issue in quakeworld because better armor carriers cannot pickup ones that offer less protection. If they opt to damage themselves to take YA the health differential from naked/GA is less.

    At least, if the only or major contributing factor here was spawn time this might be the case. Respawn times are an important factor, but not the way you mean.

    Quakelive armor system

    In ql the armors (red 100 (RA), yellow 50 (YA), green 25 (GA)) all have the same spawn time : 25 seconds. The mega is 35 seconds. These are the main items that drive conflict in quakelive duel. This example will lean heavily on ql, not because I think we should copy it (far from that) but because it works in duel for a reason and it helps prevent snowballing and give a way back into the game. There is plenty of room to improve what we have based on some ideas. As a side note I would not use ql as an example for TDM.

    For reference the health bubbles (5, 25, 50) are 35 seconds. The armor shards (5) are 25 seconds. Then weapons have 5 second (or something) spawn so these are not really controlled. None would typically cause player interaction in the same way as armors/mega or amp/quad in TDM. Occasionally an opportunity might present itself where you damage a player and know they will be headed for a health pickup or know they lack a weapon – rail on t7 comes to mind and can ambush them. Even with weaponstay off weapons in ut do not drive player interaction like armor or health.

    ql maps typically have (1RA 1 mega) + (2YA) or (1YA 2GA). Along with a stack of shards, 5 health bubbles and whatnot. Newer maps tend to be more item rich than older ones which have dropped out of map pools. T4 is an example of a light item map that is rarely played today.

    From this we can ascertain that the issue is not that items are on the same spawn and thus players can run patterns easily, as the same problem would occur in ql if this was what was happening. Yet it does not.

    If we look at the quantity/volume of items and stacking in ql vs ut we get a better understand of what the root cause is. Specifically items in duel that drive conflict and player interaction: The armors and the big health (mega/keg). Most of the examples I will use are in control / out of control. However a balanced state exists in ql. For example off spawn players typically split pickups and end up with roughly the same stack. Because this is more concerned with comeback and change of control that aspect is not overly important to analyse, however I will say that when pickups are split and combat occurs the game is really good.

    This balanced gamestate does not really exist in ut99 due to the belt/jacket dynamic. One player is automatically at a disadvantage stack wise. It would be interesting to try and achieve a balanced state as this is when the best games occur.

    If we use the ql mega as the frame of reference for an item “cycle” the in control player has 2-3 items to be concerned with in a 35 second time period. With travel time and delays this consumes the majority of the in control players time while at the same time making them highly predictable. Playing in control means not having time to hunt your opponent. It means the out of control player will have a very good idea of where you are and what you are getting soon. On top of that the out of control player generally receives items away from the in control players sphere of influence.

    At least that is how it works in quakelive.

    In a 10 minute game there are ~35 pickups of red + mega. 3.5 per minute.

    In addition with stacking the player taking RA/mega is not fully stacked until the second cycle. Even if the out of control player deals modest damage at one of the two pickups the in control player will not reach critical mass.

    This restriction of movement, predictability and lack of time to pressure the out of control player should be the downsides to playing in control. Being able to see when to be aggressive in gaps between items without giving large pickups to the out of control player is important.

    Armor/health tick down plays no role in ql duel, even though it is often raised on the dev forums as a contributor to players hunting items more. Pickups are required because players take damage or they want to deny items. Originally implemented to stop heavy +back, tickdown fails even in this as 100/100 is plenty of stack to play defensive if one desires.

    On the flip side the out of control play can get the non-major items. On a map like ztn this usually equates to a YA (50) plus shards (25 to 55). Each ~30 seconds. If the in control player is sloppier they may be able to take a second YA. The out of control player is still timing their own pickups – they need to in order to leave whichever YA they are using in order to get weapons, shards or possibly pressure the in control player. They need to make good use of their time and not simply sit in the YA room. If possible they need to leave when they can and try to deal some efficient (unreturned) damage on the in control player, keeping his stack under control. Even utilising a single YA the out of control player is 100/100 in a short time.

    And this works in the inverse too – if the in control player is too passive when pressing the other player, out of control can accumulate a stack and then challenge for items on an almost even footing. Even mega can be nullified with good timing and attacking with health to retreat onto. When stack difference is a single good rocket apart it becomes much easier to level the playing field.

    Stack in ql is not binary. It is a sliding scale that takes a while to build up from multiple sources. Your stack in relation to your opponent’s stack is important as well – stack for aggressive play differs between maps – ztn or dm13 players might opt to wait for more stack where as aero/tox might go after a single red pickup. In the lead up to an in control/out of control situation players may be splitting RA/mega and in this way both have significant stacks

    If it was simply a case of times being the same the problem originally quoted would exist in ql too, and it does not.

    UT99 Armor

    Then we have ut99 which all predecessors have followed in one way or another, the underlying dynamics that are important are close enough that they can be bundled together for the purpose of this conversation. UT3 might have an additional armor item and 2kx changed the stacking rules slightly, but overall the games are close enough for our purposes here to roll them into one, at the very least ut99 and ut3. And it looks like ut4 is following.

    In ut we have the shield belt (150 points @ 100% ) on a 55second spawn time. Both epic and third party mappers have been very strict with its use in DM maps over the course of the games life. When belt is included on a DM map there will be one instance only. None of the ut99 duel (or DM) maps ever had more than one belt and I have never seen a third party DM map that had more than one. The belt stacks only with itself (ignoring bugs) but a single pickup gives the maximum stack. Maybe a better way to state this is the belt refreshes itself.

    The next main item of interest is the jacket (100 points @ 75%) on a 27 second spawn (27.5, everything rounded from this point out). Finally we have the thigh pads (50 points) also on a 27 second spawn. At this point you might be wondering why the quakelive armors are rolled into one sentence and ut99 ones split into multiple. The jacket and pads stack with each other but not with themselves.

    ut99 health is available in 25 packs and 5 vials, on an 18second spawn. Vials stack beyond base 100. ut99 also had a keg (100 health, 90second spawn) but it was not on any duel maps that were played.

    ut99 duel maps were varied. Some had belt/jacket/pads. Some had belt/jacket. One had jacket/pads. One had belt/pads.

    This should all be obvious to the ut veterans on this forum, but laying it down as people seem to forget. Or because ut99 is quite old and a lot of posters played newer versions which are similar in the important ways we are going to look at.

    Over a 15 minute game there are ~43 pickups of belt + jacket. 2.89 per minute. On the surface this appears close enough to ql when it comes to number of items a player needs to be concerned about. Taking other things like boots and weapon stay off into account surely they are close enough?

    To get a better feel of how ut99 works in duel we will look at the venerable map: Deck. This illustrates ut99 duel very well. I will preface this with a caution – yes people will post that there are ways around the problem, and I kind of agree. However the problems that are bought up in threads about snowballing and comebacks being difficult should be addressed, and by doing so we will end up with a better game all around. This is achieved by looking at the armor and health system rather than offering specific work around like denying sniper rifles and boots (or similar strategies). The existing options will still be there.

    Again if we look at the volume of items and stacking – Specifically items in duel that drive conflict and player interaction: The belt and jacket are the main items that cause player interaction in ut99, and this is even more pronounced on deck.

    Deck has a belt, a jacket and thigh pads. Also it has some vials. It also has boots. It has lots of weapons.

    Using the same methodology as the previous example one player is in control and has belt – in this example the “cycle” is 55 seconds for the belt. Belt pickup fills the in control players armor completely. At this point they do not need to worry about the belt again for 55 seconds. They are free to go and do whatever they like. Get weapons. Pressure the other player. Pressure the jacket. None of these are predictable to the jacket player – the belt player can essentially do what they like.

    The only reason they need to revisit the belt is for top up or denial. One pickup is a full stack of belt armor.

    The jacket player is in a similar situation, but they can add to their armor stack with the thigh pads. This is already a problem. The player with the superior item and superior stack has a single item to obtain it. The underdog by virtue of the stacking mechanic in ut99 becomes more predictable if they opt to pursue armor as an option. There is only one other source due to the stacking mechanics.

    Deck further exacerbates this particular point by placing the thigh pads at the top of the ramp out in the open area of a large room. Not particularly inviting for the weaker player – if you were trying to make safe plays this would rarely be one. This is a map specific problem and while it could easily be addressed it has never been. Deck is still played today in its original form.

    Also because of the long belt spawn there are few reasons for players to interact. Meeting at belt will not occur for almost a minute. Meeting at jacket? Is not required unless a player takes damage. Meeting at weapons is more luck due to the sheer number of guns available and double up of fire modes – and thus less reasons to seek a specific weapon. Even though this is a side issue to what the main point is I want to highlight it because it is interesting. Nothing really drives player interaction in ut because items are not structured in a way that creates conflict unless players take damage.

    Other armor things

    A somewhat side problem that exists and could be up for debate is the length of the spawn on the belt. Besides the freedom it gives the belt player to pressure the other player, it also lends itself to more defensive play due to the length of time between spawns. “Wasting” the belt 15 seconds after picking it up is not ideal. Being overly cautious and waiting till the next spawn could be considered a problem if player interaction is a key driver in building the game. With the other considerations in this document you can see how it might be seen as n issue. This could also be seen as a reason why it is not quite as powerful for the in control player.

    One thing that comes up in timing/item threads on the dev forum is delaying belt pickups. The idea is simple. When there is a conflict near the belt the player that “wins” and either kills or drives off his opponent will wait until they think/know the other player is out of pickup sound range. Then they wait a bit longer and take it. This apparently screws up the player that died timing and is very unfair. Not to comment on this particular point but delaying causes more problems than this. By delaying items the in control player can give themselves both the belt and the jacket indefinitely. This is not really a problem either, its just how the game work, however the posters latching onto the delaying “problem” with belt should also highlight this point.

    Wait, where are we up to?

    In my mind the biggest problems (besides the maps, or more specifically their item load outs and balance for out of control play) in ut99 is the item offset time combined with pathetically weak out of control armor and lack of reason to revisit pickups. These problems are exacerbated by the maps that were played, however even with maps that are setup correctly I feel that belt vs thighpads (in the situation above where the in control player has belt+jacket) is rather lopsided and does not allow a great deal of options for the out of control player.

    Thought Process, how we got here?

    My original thoughts for armor in ut99 (and by extension ut4 with its current setup) was fairly simple. The belt is overpowered and creates an unbalanced game. It is significantly more protection in one pickup – this is typically cited as the reason it is too powerful. In addition the belt player can pressure every second jacket spawn – every spawn if they are careful and make sure to offset them correctly. Even without paying attention getting things to not clash is trivial, with travel time and the spawns it just tends to happen. This is rarely mentioned but is a larger problem than the straight up better belt stats. Being able to do this might not seem like a problem and simply the dynamics of the game, however in my opinion there should always be options and this situation removes many as the out of control player loses access to the jacket and belt.

    This is only part of the story but was where I got to when initially planning to write these pieces and jotted down an outline. This dynamic has come to the front of my thoughts whenever ut99 duel popped into my head for over ten years. To me it seemed enough at the time. However because of the stacking mechanic, revisiting the jacket for the jacket player is unproductive unless they have taken damage. Likewise the belt player only needs to deny jacket when the other player has taken damage or died. There is less reason to visit it or deny the pickup if the player already has it – you become predictable* doing so and possibly give up position on other more interesting items. True the jacket could be denied for the next 30 seconds, thus removing a fall back point for the out of control player if they do take damage, but overall it is not needed.

    However watching streams/youtube of good players recently, time and time again they go to jacket to deny it when their opponent already has it and has not taken any damage. Quite often they take damage on their belt doing so.

    *both traveling to the jacket as well as traveling back to the belt.

    Sorry this is so long but we are getting to the final piece of the puzzle that is the broken ut99 armor system. The final piece is total out of control play. To this point there has been a belt player and a jacket player. In ut99 there is no option to play like my quakelive ztn example. Once you are dead as the jacket player and the belt player can sweep the jacket and belt you are essentially left with nothing to work with. Vials and on some maps thigh pads vs belt. The problem is not so much that the belt is strong, the armor/item dynamic in ut99 lacks options for the out of control player. This in part is due to the maps played in ut99. Deck for instance. Thighpads should probably be the last item the in control player goes for and they should be available for the out of control player, right? Unfortunately they reside at the top of the main room, impossible to get without taking damage. On Codex there are no thigh pads, only belt and jacket.

    At this point it becomes beneficial for the in control player to deny the jacket as the dead, out of control player has no armor. Control switches heavily in favor of the in control player. The in control player can now run two items – easy, especially given the spawn times in ut99 – and lock out the down player. The belt is only once per minute.

    Maybe the argument is that the down player should not have let the game spiral to this degree and I agree to a point. However I think there should always be options that do not rely on execution for comebacks. Slow stacking should be a viable alternative and the way ut plays both being an option add diversity to the game. To me ut has always been about giving players many different options for play, and an armor system that works and allows out of control stacking should be one option.

    For example, allowing a player to stack to 150 on thigh pads does not break the game. Forcing the in control player to do more for control via stacking, more items or similar would also not break the game.

    I think a large part of the problems that duel in ut faces, at least the snowballing and difficult to come back complaints could be addressed by working on the armor and health system. I hope the examples above highlight the games flaws. Even ignoring these complaints a better version of duel* and TDM could easily be fashioned, one that stays true to what I feel are UTs original core values but builds on them to allow a better experience all round without adding contrived mechanics like spawning with belt or as someone else suggested, redeemer in duel.

    *Solely by looking at item values, stacking rules and respawn times.

    Damage Amp, a side issue to further illustrate duel balance

    One final.. interesting change that 2k3 brought to the table was the damage amp in duel. To this point 2kx health/armor has not been discussed because it is not really relevant to ut99 and ut4 – Epic seem to be going down the ut99/ut3 route. We can think about how amp changes duel in relation to what has been outlined to this point. While many people think you need to actually play with settings in order to ascertain how something will affect the game I am of the opinion that spawn times and how everything lines up tells enough of a story to get a good idea. This is not to say that amp would never work, but within the parameters outlined above we will dissect what we have.

    Personally I liked amp in 2k3, this does not mean it was a good addition however. I liked it for the same reason adding the belt + vials back to ut99 duel was good – it added more pickups and as a result made the game play better. It gave more options to the out of control play and at the time that was good. At this basic level it “works”, but just adding more stuff really fix things.

    The amp is a temporary, time limited buff. This is important to remember and from the perspective of how it affects the game plays during its duration. In the current alpha the amp lasts 10 seconds.

    One common defence of amp is its ability for an out of control player to get back into the game, the out of control player can make use of the amp to remove the in control players stack. This might be the case, however due to the spawn times on the belt and jacket, slotting in another single item every minute or two should pose no problem. Also because of how item driven FPS work this can be swapped and the in control player can get the amp too..

    On top of this we have another interesting problem. Because the amp is time limited, allowing a pickup does not really impact the important aspect of the game – the in control players stack.

    There are a few ways to go about things here:

    The in control player takes the belt, jacket and amp. This is likely to happen because of the aforementioned spawn times and plenty of free time for the in control player. In this scenario the out of control player gets a little extra breathing room, however unless the amp is a frequent spawn (~30 seconds) it will not add much stress to the in control player. I could not imagine the amp being a short duration spawn.

    The in control player takes the belt and jacket, ignoring the amp. The amp is time limited (currently 10 seconds) and the in control player then plays keep away for the duration. In an ideal situation the out of control player delays pickup of the amp until close to the belt or jacket spawn so he can pressure the pickup, hopefully stealing it thanks to additional damage. In quakelive players to a medium/high level have problems with mega/red overlapping – I don’t think introducing a mechanic that requires this level of timing ability for comebacks is a good way to proceed. Think about it this way, in order to be able to leverage the amp effectively you need to :

    Know the time of the amp
    Know the time of the belt
    Delay pickup of the amp until it is aligned to be used at belt spawn
    Execute the above outlined on the next spawn cycle.
    While this might sound similar to the belt/jacket scenario that has been hammered on so heavily over the course of this document. However in practice it is the opposite. Aligning times like this is hard. Deliberately doing it is difficult for most players.

    Sure it takes skill to execute but I feel it is too niche to do so.

    It would be rare for a player to ignore the belt in favour of the amp, a short duration buff.

    *insert stack differences here

    Contesting the amp as the out of control player is probably not a great idea – the main problem here is that the down player should be trying to deal safe or efficient damage. Because they have less to work with they have more to loose when taking smaller amounts of damage.

    Swings heavily to aim.

    Discussion on the dev forum seem to think than amp is “ok on deck but not suitable for maps like compressed”. To me this reads “its ok on deck because you can run away for the duration” rather than giving the player with amp a chance to utilise it. In addition to this the comments (and indication that this seems to be the existing attitude) of “it adds an extra thing so helps even out control” is wrong as already demonstrated.

    It should not be added until a more robust armor/health system is in place – maybe it would work then, who knows. The whole time limited thing strikes me as the largest problem. Make it “double damage for the next 3 seconds after shooting” or something. This way it is easier to utlise on a belt, mega or jacket pickup.

    Ok. Kinda ran out of steam on this point, I don’t find it that interesting because I strongly suspect that amp will not make it into duel, however.. its worth thinking about anyway.

    A Few Final thoughts

    One final thing that needs saying and should have been said by now is this : the thighpads are useless. By themselves they are not a way back into the game for the out of control player. 250 health vs 125 health is highly imbalanced.

    In addition to this, simply adding thigh pads to a map does not solve the problem. This is similar to adding amp. Sure there is an extra item to suck up the in control players time, and in the pads case more time than an amp due to faster respawn, however a big part that is lacking from out of control play in ut is the ability to generate a meaningful stack if the player wanted to play this way. Once a player has pads they are basically out of options when it comes to larger value uncontested items.

    Vials have also been glossed over as a way back into the game for the out of control player for a number of reasons. Firstly they are there for both players due to the lack of a megahealth style item the in control player can take them. Secondly they were never really well positioned for out of control stacking in the popular ut99 maps. For example the vials on deck are in the main room and in a dead end that can be heard from the main room, not exactly out of control territory. The vials on codex are right next to the belt and the jacket, both areas the in control player will be. Thirdly vials in ut4 are unlikely to be on an 18 second spawn like ut99. This alone buffed them a little more than vials in other games, but putting them back to 25-35 seconds is a nerf. Finally this has concentrated more on items that drive the game and player interaction, which is rare for +5 health/armor to do in any previous FPS.

    I think stacking speed is important in item driven game types. For duel this is armor/health and for TDM this is weapons.

    Mappers seem to love putting vials in locations to use as audio queues, which is cool but there comes a point where out of control needs a way to safely stack up a little. Due to the belt/jacket dynamic the in control player is not tied up for long periods of time like in quakelive and thus can pressure even vial pickups.

    Armor Changes

    Preface. Armor refers to armor items (Jacket/pads/helmet). Belt refers to belt armor. Essentially there are two armor “types”.

    The goal is to maintain unreal "flavor" by having two armor types.

    All these changes are intended for duel. The goal is to reshuffle so the in control player has more on their plate and a harder time locking things down while at the same time giving the out of control player more options for stacking.

    Broad changes:
    Remove different absorption values from armor. If thighpads@50(50%) is too much drop them 35(75%) which gives roughly the same additional health as 50. Personally I don’t think this is needed and part of the reason they are less than ideal in ut99 is because of the high damage weapons. Stacking with different absorption amounts makes things overly complicated especially when combined with one of the changes below.

    Allow items of the same type (armor/jacket) to stack. eg pads stack with pads to give 2* pad armor pickup to the maximum armor amount. Two jacket pickups stack.

    Helmet offers no armor and simply converts a headshot into a bodyshot. This makes it a separate to belt or armor and removes confusion as to how much armor you have. Its use with belt or armor is the same.

    Optional: Change belt to be 95% absorption. It stops belt diving with two health. Also makes more sense once mega is added to the game to further differentiate health/belt.

    Item specific – Pick one:

    No-denial like Quakeworld. Players with better armor cannot pickup weaker armor. Changing duel to stop players taking jacket when they have belt limits the maximum difference. The belt player has a choice – leave jacket up and risk it being taken or self damage and take jacket. Even then the difference is lowered because pads are still available. It also creates what can be an interesting dynamic when the in control player opts to defend the jacket rather than self damage to take it and the out of control player then gets free reign on the rest of the map. More decisions.
    Break belt into smaller amounts and allow it to stack. We would end up with two stacking resources that do not stack with each other and slower stacking would make the big armor less binary in nature.
    Allow armor to stack to offer more protection than belt. Downside needs more health (either more than 100 or heal during combat). This creates a very unique item set and gives players two choices. Start strong – no ramp up vs start weak – end strongest. However even without this it is a similar situation to ut99 currently but requires more work on the armor players part to be “in control” and the potentially weaker options (belt). This may need a spin on the "no-denial like quakeworld" applied : Once the armor stack > belt the player can no longer take it. This point needs more thought..

    These are just three options, change them or more suggestions are needed. Simple is better.

    Map specific changes in conjunction with one of the above.

    Add keg to maps and have it on a much shorter than 90second respawn. This is another item to tie up the in control players time as well as have a longer “balanced” section of the game where both players are somewhat even. Rather than belt vs jacket we could have belt vs jacket+keg.

    Offer more variety in pickups and less dangerous pickup style for the out of control player. Out of control play is a problem on maps like deck. ut mappers seem to go out of their way to make pickups dangerous to get. For some items, some of the time this is fine, but all items do not need to be suspended above lava with rabid dogs spawning on pickup.

    If old maps are going to be rehashed can we please fix them? Maps like curse might have ok layouts but belt vs pads is super lame even with the changes I am suggesting. Change them! Make them better! They were only ok to start with, improving them is good, and improvement is more than just taking new movement into account. If the armor system is not changed make a map with two belts and two jackets. Make a map with a belt, two jackets.

    Break out of the mold that is “one of each item” – it has been going since ut99, it is outdated and boring.

    Cosmetic problems may arise from this. While I can deal with picking up four sets of thigh pads for 200 armor, some players may find this a little odd. Where would you put them? To rectify this the thigh pads could be changed to armor pads – players wear suits where pads can be attached. Thighs, upper arms, forearms and shins. Jacket could become torso plates – can attach to chest/back mounts. Alternatively change armor to a lower damage absorption version of belt and have “power” pickups to charge it. I’m not very good at this part of the game because I just don’t care. I could be picking up carrots for armor and it would not matter. I hope epic go the “pay for customisation” route and have a whole slew of different armor graphic styles I can buy. I would get red/yellow pack for sure. Or maybe plate and mail vs leather jerkin. Likewise the railgun graphic for the sniper rifle – yum.

    A fix that involves changing nothing and using existing mechanics
    Finally the perceived problem of out of control could somewhat be relieved with a single mutator. Somewhat, this is the clunkiest “fix” and not ideal. In fact it would be better to simply add better items to existing maps.

    If there is an amp, change it to a jacket
    If there is no amp but there are pads, change pads to jacket
    If there is no amp or pads, change Bio (or something) to jacket

    The main problem is the ease / time requirements which belt on 55 and jacket on 27 is locked down, giving the in control player lots of time to pressure the out of control player who then has nothing to work with. By adding another jacket the in control player has something else to worry about getting, giving them less time to pressure and accidental overlap is more likely to occur. In addition a jacket rather than pads puts players on a more even footing.

    Another idea that will surely polarise opinions is adding spawn points to both the belt and the jacket. This would probably be combined with the above item switch. Now while this may sound crazy, aerowalk, one of the most popular quake maps has a red armor spawn and it works relatively well (depending on your outlook). To me this setup would be better than giving players “wildcards” they can play like spawning with belt. Not only do you spawn with belt, you would also deny their pickup and mess with their timing. Of course the argument against this is that a player playing perfectly will never let you spawn on the belt, which might be the case. However I think this would be one of the last things to look at – better than giving players the option to spawn with belt twice a game, much worse than actually fixing the underlying problem. These are more ideas for people who do not find changing the armor system palatable, personally I am not a huge fan of either idea as I feel changing the base would yield a better 1v1 experience.

    Even just changing the belt to the same respawn as the jacket would do much to alleviate the problems.

    Why this is important
    It is important because a game with structure leads to better games. A game with structure that allows comebacks and slows landslide games with natural gameplay mechanics rather than giving players “cards” to play on spawns and in turn leads to better games.

    If the base game allows inroads to control it is better than relying on execution to bleed the in control player. It also gives more style options. Few of the suggestions I have made invalidate existing unreal duel methodology, they simply limit stomping by giving the out of control player more options.

    Finally I personally think that the belt+jacket dynamic in ut99 is broken. It may not have been as glaringly obvious 15 years ago but when it is laid out like the above it is. If the game was played to the level quakelive is played today it would be very obvious. If ut4 ends up being as successful as cs:go or one of the MOBAs then the huge player base and competitiveness will latch on and exploit this sort of thing into the ground. Yes the game is fun but it should not allow one player to be one 250 health while the other is relegated to a pickup that provides 1/6th the protection with no way for it to become more when they are locked out of jacket/belt. And thats if the map even allows it, it might be belt vs naked.

    It is important because at the core the changes suggested do not break the game as it is, they simply give other options to the out of control player. The existing duel dynamic would still exist. You can still get a single set of pads and press aggressively if you choose to.

    This was an intro. An intro to changes that should be made, at least in my opinion. In order to understand why something needs changing it needs to be analysed like above. If anyone would like to correct anything I have stated to this point please go ahead – In case you couldn’t tell I have an axe to grind on this particular subject so if there is a glaring mistake I want to know Sure some parts are opinion, but others are more.. just how things are.

    The flavor of UT armor should be preserved as well. To me this means something like ut99 with its different armor pools: belt (100% absorption) and armor (not 100% absorption). This will be preserved in the following ideas because to me it is a key Unreal Tournament thing. Plus there is no reason to change it, work with it and make something unique.

    And finally I am not overly attached to any of my "suggestions". The main thing I would like to see is the game not backslide to giving players the option to spawn with belt twice per map, make getting back into the game somewhat easier so more players can enjoy duel!

    Why did you not mention ut3: I did not play it. Looking at armor values it seems to suffer from the same problem that ut99 did for out of control player with a slight nerf on the top end of the in control players stack while making the jacket relevant.
    Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

    It's hard to say 150sb is overpowered without knowing the damage output in the weapons since they're in pre alpha

    However, given the current build and weapons, 200 max armor is too high, combined armor/pads/belts should result in a max of 150 total armor. 200 you feel invulnerable in a 1v1 environment and it's very difficult for an opposing player to inflict meaningful damage to break map control


      Originally posted by nuxx View Post
      It's hard to say 150sb is overpowered without knowing the damage output in the weapons since they're in pre alpha

      However, given the current build and weapons, 200 max armor is too high, combined armor/pads/belts should result in a max of 150 total armor. 200 you feel invulnerable in a 1v1 environment and it's very difficult for an opposing player to inflict meaningful damage to break map control
      I agree. The numbers themselves are entirely in the air. The stacking mechanics and how items drive player interaction was the idea. I don't think I listed numbers for changes, because that was not really the point. If numbers were listed I should have prefaced them as placeholders.

      Even your example of "200 feels invulnerable" is more a side effect due to lack of stacking options for the out of control player rather than 200 being "a lot". If you could stack to 100 off pads (two spawns) then 200 is not that much because as the out of control player you have a decent stack to work with.
      Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven


        I just want to fill the OP in on one dynamic about QL duel. Running the map like the way you said might work to an extent, but the idea in Quake is not to keep running the items after 200-200, just make sure to not give them up. Like for instance, you get yourself on 200-200, you need frags more than items. Unless your opponent is giving frags away to steal things from you, most good players will control center map to trap you in a corner somewhere. It is very very difficult to break full map control in QLive. Just letting you know that. You can wait for item splits or try and find the most optimal time to zone the opponent out, but what is your reward? 100 armor? i mean the opponent can still run over you quite easily, and you'd have to either sacrifice a life for damage, or miraculously hit some nasty 150dmg clean without any returned. So I wouldn't say QLive is actually that much more balanced. It is a little bit, but don't forget that in UT you can blast someone's control away in a mere instance. Tbh, map control in UT is weapon control above all else. Like on ASDF, control the shock rifle, and you control center map, which leads to getting numerous frags and consistent pressure as you bully your opponent around into inescapable spots.


          4 year necropost, nice.