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    CONCEPT Multi Gamtype Maps

    I was overthinking about this and I realize it's a really simple concept, with a few clicks the mappers can change the gametype of their maps, so for example, one would contain a DM setting and DOM setting, a CTF with DDOM and BR in it.

    All the information of the gametypes like flags, control points, etc, can be saved in a different file and the mapper only needs to choose what gametypes are avaible for the map. Of course dedicated maps would not disappear (but if you are already there, why not make a few clicks and save the map with a different gametype?). The maps could still have their prefix to indicate what’s the primary gametype.

    Also, it could open map versions, a different file could manage the information about the textures and stuff, so you can have a map with a day versión and a night versión, or different looks for the maps for example, the original DM-Fractal was blue, with this you could choose between the blue, red, green, yellow, purple, etc version and it won't be necessary to have multiple maps because all the changes are in another file wich size should be really small.

    With something like this we could add more value to the maps, increase the amount of total maps and reduce the space needed. I personally don’t like to have duplicates of maps just to play a different gametype or see a different look.

    What I thought was that you could create a map, save it with a gametype and then with a few clicks you switch to other gametype and the would be empty, then you could import everything (or what you need) from the other gametype and now you just have to place the things that the gametype needs and save it. Other versions of the map could work like this too, save your map and with a few clicks you create a new versión and you can import textures if you want and give the map a different look that doesn’t affect the gameplay, just the look of the map.

    I don’t know about adding specific parts of the map that can only be seen in a specific gametype, for example a CTF map with two bases and a middle ground in DM could be just the middle. I’m not sure about that but the main idea remains, one map, multiple gametypes.

    I repeat, this does not take away dedicated maps, it doesn’t force mappers to create maps that can be use for everything, it doesnt take away the uniqueness of the unreal franchise, it adds more value to the maps.

    In the map selection screen you could sort between All Maps, Dedicated Maps and Non Dedicated Maps, so you can pick exactly the maps you want.

    I know that something like this could be somehow hard to program, but we have a lot of time to think about it and do it (if the devs want to try it)

    What do you guys think about it? Remember it's just an option.
    Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

    #2
    This was one of the things that we discussed at the Nov. community event and the basic response here is this is already possible utilizing sublevels. I think it's important that LDs can repurpose maps for multiple gametypes so hopefully someone makes a tutorial on doing this and it becomes common practice. (Once we have more than 2 official gametypes, that is.)
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      #3
      With the amount of time and effort individual maps take to create, iterate, test and publish... I could imagine Epic wants to make sure this happens on a purely financial level. That, and it gives LDs more freedom, as well as reduces the overal storage footprints of the shipped title.

      That said, the BIGGEST impact on filesize and RAM usage is the textures. An uncompressed 4096x4096 texture in RAM is over 15 megabytes, which is more than the entire geometry of a single level alone. So, changing light maps, textures and whatnot will effectively increase the storage footprint in the same way as an entire new map would.

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        #4
        oh, well, that's.... ehm.... can the file have just the info of what textures are used, not the actual textures?, assuming that the textures are already in there, it will be like loading the map as normal, no? well, I had to try...

        But I'm glad that this was talked about, I wasn't there... repurposing a map shouldn't be that hard, I mean, DOM maps are DM maps with control points and BR and DDOM are CTF maps basically, they have different assets but the main concept is applied, two bases and one middle ground. AS and WAR are not the same but some AS maps have a level design that can be used for WAR and some of those maps can be used for vCTF or vDOM, maybe vDM?
        Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

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          #5
          And don't forget that Greed is CTF with skull conduits, etc.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Urban-Shadow-001 View Post
            oh, well, that's.... ehm.... can the file have just the info of what textures are used, not the actual textures?, assuming that the textures are already in there, it will be like loading the map as normal, no? well, I had to try...

            But I'm glad that this was talked about, I wasn't there... repurposing a map shouldn't be that hard, I mean, DOM maps are DM maps with control points and BR and DDOM are CTF maps basically, they have different assets but the main concept is applied, two bases and one middle ground. AS and WAR are not the same but some AS maps have a level design that can be used for WAR and some of those maps can be used for vCTF or vDOM, maybe vDM?
            I didn't really explain this well earlier so let me elaborate.

            Lets say you have a map called CTF-Example. Assume that this level is 100% complete.

            The Unreal Engine editor has functionality called sublevels that allows certain "sublevels" (ie, parts of a level) to be streamed in (aka, loaded) while other parts of a level are streamed out (aka, unloaded). Sublevels are useful for a variety of reasons. When a map has "sublevels" defined, we usually talk about the map itself as the "persistent level" and then sublevels are different areas. A sublevel exists on your computer as a separate file from the persistent level, but when you play the persistent level in the game it will seamlessly load all the sublevels so that you never know you're actually playing through multiple map files.

            Sublevels are also great for allowing people to work on different parts of a level simulatneously without worrying about stepping on each others' toes. The an example breakdown of a level into sublevels might look like this:

            * CTF-Example_Persistent - Master file for the map. Not actively touched by anyone usually
            * CTF-Example_Geometry -Bob the level designer edits this file. It contains geometry only.
            * CTF-Example_Lighting - Steve the lighting specialist edits this file to make the lighting look great.
            * CTF-Example_Gameplay - Peter the gameplay balancer edits this file to adjust placement of items and pickups.
            * CTF-Example_SpecialEffects - Susan the effects artist edits this file to make cool particles and other dynamic non-gameplay effects.


            The idea that's being floated is that instead of using this primarily as a tool for development workflow, that sublevels are also used to give each map customized gameplay on certain gametypes. Breaking it down a different way, our map CTF-Example could be downloaded from the marketplace as one object, but what it might actually contain when we download it to our PC is a list of files such as:

            * CTF-Example_Persistent - Contains all the common geometry, lighting, scripting, special effects, etc.
            * CTF-Example_CTF - Loaded during CTF gameplay. Contains flag bases and all weapon and item pickups part of the core designed gameplay experience.
            * CTF-Example_Greed - Loaded during CTF gameplay. Replaces flag bases with skull collectors but doesn't otherwise change much.
            * CTF-Example_Domination - Loaded during Domination gameplay. Removes flag bases and adds domination points in key map areas. Item placement, weapon bases and playerstarts are rearranged to account for different gameplay.
            * CTF-Example_Vehicles - Loaded if gameplay option "Vehicles Enabled" is true, adds vehicle factories to the map.
            * CTF-Example_Instagib - Loaded if Instagib gameplay mutator is loaded, placing jump pads in locations where players might normally translocate or weapon-jump.


            As you can see, using sublevels in this way could allow level designers fine-grained control over how their map plays in a variety of gametypes and even customization for gameplay options and mutators.
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              #7
              mmmm I see, very close to what I have in mind, that could actually works, what I was saying was since each actor have a xyz position, those position could be saved in a file, and because it's all letters the file would be really small. But, so far for what I understand, sublevels can work, there are at least +12 gametypes in the unreal franchise if we count vehicke variations. I'm not saying that we are going to get all of them, but it would be interesting to have them. The questions in this case should be, how many sublevels can be saved?
              Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

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                #8
                Originally posted by Wail View Post
                I didn't really explain this well earlier so let me elaborate.

                Lets say you have a map called CTF-Example. Assume that this level is 100% complete.

                The Unreal Engine editor has functionality called sublevels that allows certain "sublevels" (ie, parts of a level) to be streamed in (aka, loaded) while other parts of a level are streamed out (aka, unloaded). Sublevels are useful for a variety of reasons. When a map has "sublevels" defined, we usually talk about the map itself as the "persistent level" and then sublevels are different areas. A sublevel exists on your computer as a separate file from the persistent level, but when you play the persistent level in the game it will seamlessly load all the sublevels so that you never know you're actually playing through multiple map files.

                Sublevels are also great for allowing people to work on different parts of a level simulatneously without worrying about stepping on each others' toes. The an example breakdown of a level into sublevels might look like this:

                * CTF-Example_Persistent - Master file for the map. Not actively touched by anyone usually
                * CTF-Example_Geometry -Bob the level designer edits this file. It contains geometry only.
                * CTF-Example_Lighting - Steve the lighting specialist edits this file to make the lighting look great.
                * CTF-Example_Gameplay - Peter the gameplay balancer edits this file to adjust placement of items and pickups.
                * CTF-Example_SpecialEffects - Susan the effects artist edits this file to make cool particles and other dynamic non-gameplay effects.


                The idea that's being floated is that instead of using this primarily as a tool for development workflow, that sublevels are also used to give each map customized gameplay on certain gametypes. Breaking it down a different way, our map CTF-Example could be downloaded from the marketplace as one object, but what it might actually contain when we download it to our PC is a list of files such as:

                * CTF-Example_Persistent - Contains all the common geometry, lighting, scripting, special effects, etc.
                * CTF-Example_CTF - Loaded during CTF gameplay. Contains flag bases and all weapon and item pickups part of the core designed gameplay experience.
                * CTF-Example_Greed - Loaded during CTF gameplay. Replaces flag bases with skull collectors but doesn't otherwise change much.
                * CTF-Example_Domination - Loaded during Domination gameplay. Removes flag bases and adds domination points in key map areas. Item placement, weapon bases and playerstarts are rearranged to account for different gameplay.
                * CTF-Example_Vehicles - Loaded if gameplay option "Vehicles Enabled" is true, adds vehicle factories to the map.
                * CTF-Example_Instagib - Loaded if Instagib gameplay mutator is loaded, placing jump pads in locations where players might normally translocate or weapon-jump.


                As you can see, using sublevels in this way could allow level designers fine-grained control over how their map plays in a variety of gametypes and even customization for gameplay options and mutators.
                Thanks for that detailed explanation.

                I started the thread here: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...061#post123061 to find if this was possible, and it Urban-Shadow expanded a bit more on that with this thread.

                If you guys don't mind, I'd prefer if you could go over to the thread I started just for simplicities sake, and the fact of having everything together on one thread.

                @Urban-Shadow-001 I hope you don't mind that?
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                  #9
                  IMO this brings up another point... could we conceivably finally start dumping the prefix from map names altogether so people begin to think of maps as more flexible entities?

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                    #10
                    Well daniel, we are kinda talking about 2 different things here, multi gametypes maps are the base for your suggested gametype.

                    One thing is to have a map were you can play different gametypes, meaning that you select one and go with it the entire match and another diffierent thing is to have a gametype that mixes various gametypes per match, meaning that they switch on the fly.

                    I like your idea, having a gametype like that could help to integrate the community, but first we need to figure out how it can be done correctly, The first step is making the maps avaible for different gametypes and then we need to figure out how to make them switch in the same match for your idea to work.

                    Again, not quite the same but you deffenetly should work around the concept, perhaps it could be a team based gametype were the winning team of each round wins a point and at the end of the match the team with most points wins the match. The gametypes avaible would depend on the LD or on some heavy coding.

                    Your idea is good, I see it's potential as a gametype, but this thread is more about on how to make multi gametype maps a reality and your thread is about on how to use it for potential gametype.

                    Originally posted by HerikRyosa
                    IMO this brings up another point... could we conceivably finally start dumping the prefix from map names altogether so people begin to think of maps as more flexible entities?
                    I would love to see that, the prefix in game is not actually needed because you already pick your gametype so you already know what you are playing
                    Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

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                      #11
                      I'd dislike if maps were made to be jack of all trades in design because they have to work for every game type. What I do think could work, is maps that are designed to run a few similar gametypes or mutators of gametypes.

                      Certainly Bombing Run, Capture the Flag and other similar gametype maps can be the same. I don't see why that has to be even anything more than ticking a box when hosting the server to play the map as one or the other. Assault maps can be used for a gametype similar to Monsterhunt/invasion. Most DM maps probably could work as classic domination without making it a separate gametype from team deathmatch. They could even works as overdose maps.

                      I think having multiple possible subgame types work on maps that are tailored to them would be refreshing experience that adds diversity, and replay value without fragmenting the community or leading to a situation were a gametype is not tried because no one else seems to be trying it enough to get a fun online game together.

                      I for one, would love that the next time CTF-Face comes up in a rotation, the rules have changed and you have to scramble for a ball at the centre of the map and play a totally different way....or some other set of rules, that can be set by the server that effect the playing field.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Gregori View Post
                        I'd dislike if maps were made to be jack of all trades in design because they have to work for every game type. What I do think could work, is maps that are designed to run a few similar gametypes or mutators of gametypes.
                        I agree, thats what I'm saying, been able to support different gametypes in one map does not mean that every map has to have support for all of them. We know that there are going to be some maps that can do everything but I preffer a map that has a good gameplay in a few gametypes.

                        Anyway, that's up to the mapper.

                        Just beacuse you can, it doesn't mean you should
                        Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

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                          #13
                          Cool, so we're all in agreement!

                          Totally off topic, but if they're to do Assault or a variation on it, I think it has to be boiled down to a few simple modular elements and rules that in game look like unique missions, but the underlying mechanics are generic and not specific to any map. All that is really different is the values input for objects and the meshes used to represent them. It has to be easier for mappers to make missions for Assault or it just will dwindle.

                          I read an idea for an infiltration game mode, that was pretty interesting. It involved hacking one of two terminals and stealing an item from it.

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                            #14
                            Assault already was quite generic in 2k4 (not sure about 99), but it's always going to be more work on the level design front just because it fundamentally has additional demands most gametypes don't (progressive map design, moving spawns, etc).
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                              #15
                              The point is to make all the gametypes avaible for a single map, but it's up to the level designer to decide what gametypes can be played in the map. It certanly would take some extra time, effort and creativity to make a map playable with most gametypes, specially if we consider that there are +12 gametypes in the Unreal franchise (assuming that we eventually get prototypes for all of them), the maps could suffer a little if the level designer isn't careful.

                              So far the maps between gametypes are very different and I don't see a reason for that to change, however it would be for the best to keep that idea while introducing more gametypes to the map so we keep the uniqueness that is present in any UT game while expanding the gameplay posibilities.

                              For the Assault gametype, you are right, like I said in another thread:

                              Originally posted by Urban-Shadow-001 View Post
                              The core mechanic of Assault is to complete objectives, and like I said those objectives usually are about getting to one area, pushing a button or destroying something.
                              Take for example AS-HiSpeed from UT99 or AS-Convoy from UT2K4, in those maps you don't actually destroy anything with your weapons, the main objective it's to move from point A to point B to point C, but most of the time we don't see that because we are too busy trying to complete the objectives.

                              Another example about reaching areas is AS-Overlord from UT99, if you take out the combat the map is about going from point A to point B to destroy C

                              Assault is actually a very simple gametype, however the magic comes from the enviroment, the music and the feeling of acomplishment that completing an objective gives.

                              If we take, let's say, DM-Deck 17, that map can be turned into an assault map with a good placement of objectives.

                              First we start in the other "deck", If you look at the map in the editor, you'll see there are two parts of the map that are linked together in the bio-rifle room behind the UDamage, that's our entry point, by destroying that door we gain access to Deck 17.

                              From there we go to the right to the flak bridge, there we activate a switch that opens a panel where the rocket launcher is.

                              Next, we go across the middle bridge in front of the rocket launcher to another panel in the hallway between the sniper rifle and the flack cannon.

                              After that we go to the lift area to a panel that is between the two that opens a door where the jump boots are.

                              We go to the jump boots an push a button that activates the teleporter at the end of where the other rocket launcher is.

                              And finally, we enter the portal, push a button that deactivates a force field in the sniper platform, grab the redeemer and with it we shoot down an exposed core and win the round.

                              With some simple actors a map like deck can be turned into an assault map.

                              I haven't seen that infiltration game mode, but I can see that works with the same principles as Assault, you reach an area, activate and object by standing in front of it, go to another area, grab an item and then escape, (wich can be treated the same way as CTF, the item you grab is like the enemy flag and exit point is your flag), right?

                              Originally posted by Wail View Post
                              Assault already was quite generic in 2k4 (not sure about 99), but it's always going to be more work on the level design front just because it fundamentally has additional demands most gametypes don't (progressive map design, moving spawns, etc).
                              It was, and again, the magic of assault is in how it's presented
                              Last edited by Urban-Shadow-001; 11-14-2014, 04:15 PM.
                              Adrenaline Mutator Concept / Multi Gametype Maps Concept /Character Creation Concept /Single Player Concept

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