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    #46
    It's a completely different world between a Quake and a UT duel. At UT you usually time 2 items, 3 on some maps and theyre much much easier to synch up. At Quake there's stuff like delaying items so they don't collide and you can keep a perfect rotation over 4-5 items with much more complicated spawn times. So yea, I guess it's obvious that it is different and Quake requires much more skill at timing and playing the items. You probably just didn't play both enough to know the difference. I'd like UT4 to have the same kind of depth but it's most likely not gonna happen. Mostly due to the lack of knowledge from developers and community.

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      #47
      I think because there's far more important issues to iron out first

      I do understand what you're arguing, but in practise, and in the game itself, making timing more complicated, or "skilful" won't change anything if you pit two pro players against each other

      It's also makes no difference whatsoever in ctf really. Maybe they should look at different spawn times/systems for each game type.

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        #48
        Originally posted by aniviron View Post
        Most of what I hear in this thread sounds like people who miss the good 'ol days when it was easier to claim powerups uncontested because they were dealing with someone who was newer and trying to juggle audio, aiming, positioning, and timing at once, and wound up 5s late to the amp.
        Pretty much this.
        Originally posted by Mysterial
        An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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          #49
          Originally posted by Tobe` View Post
          It's a completely different world between a Quake and a UT duel. At UT you usually time 2 items, 3 on some maps and theyre much much easier to synch up. At Quake there's stuff like delaying items so they don't collide and you can keep a perfect rotation over 4-5 items with much more complicated spawn times. So yea, I guess it's obvious that it is different and Quake requires much more skill at timing and playing the items. You probably just didn't play both enough to know the difference. I'd like UT4 to have the same kind of depth but it's most likely not gonna happen. Mostly due to the lack of knowledge from developers and community.
          You are leaving some large subtle parts out in this description, and getting hung up on the timing aspect too much. :P

          1) ql has 4-5 items per map. On the surface this means it is "harder" because there are more and is often cited on here as a reason to add amp or other pickups. However additional items substantially alters the most important variable of in control. Available time. A player running 3+ items in a 35 second period on ztn/cure/sinister/t7/dm13/large maps has very little time to pressure their opponent. On the first 1-2 circuits they have to spend time adding to weapons, or dealing damage and forgoing weapons. Control and stack should come at the cost of time and predictability.

          If you opt to drop an item out of your cycle in order to deal damage? You possibly give resources away to the out of control player.

          This does not happen in ut. There is no timing pressure with one 30 second item and one 60 second item (or 27.5/55 for the **** out there). There has never been any timing pressure in this way.

          Simply adding more items (lets say keg and amp) to ut does not achieve this, mainly because both these items are on huge spawns. Even with a player in control having belt - jacket - keg - amp there is little time pressure as the spawns on the latter items is so long. Furthermore simply adding keg and amp does not really address the underlying problem which is point 2.

          2) The out of control players stack needs to be considered by the in control player. Unlike ut where the out of control player might get pads to play with (one pickup only for stack) in ql the out of control player quite often has a YA and a decent number of shards to utilise. This means the in control player needs to take the out of control players stack into account when running items. If the in control player simply runs red - > mega -> lower yellow on ztn over and over the out of control player ends up with 150+ armor from pickups in a little over a minute. This is relatively tough and sufficient to challenge for next mega or red.

          This does not occur in ut. Instead the out of control player gets pads once.. and?

          These two points can be combined. I recall seeing players do all armors + mega on ztn. Rarely but it happens. The upshot is they have zero time to pressure the out of control player, who is still relatively free to stack on the 11 shards. 55 armor/25 seconds. Playing carefully stacked to over 100/100 in around 1 minute.

          I don't know if ql system is ideal for ut.

          Originally posted by bacon buster View Post
          I think because there's far more important issues to iron out first

          I do understand what you're arguing, but in practise, and in the game itself, making timing more complicated, or "skilful" won't change anything if you pit two pro players against each other
          Items, respawn times and how they drive duel, TDM and FFA is important.

          The original argument of the thread is that 60 seconds causes pickups to spawn at, or very close to :00 for an entire match. This does not making timing easier or harder (60 vs 55 is easy) - if this occurs it essentially removes timing because the respawn time will always be the same. What would players say if the belt was simply changed to respawn at :00 regardless of when it was picked up?
          Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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            #50
            Originally posted by Tobe` View Post
            It's a completely different world between a Quake and a UT duel. At UT you usually time 2 items, 3 on some maps and theyre much much easier to synch up. At Quake there's stuff like delaying items so they don't collide and you can keep a perfect rotation over 4-5 items with much more complicated spawn times. So yea, I guess it's obvious that it is different and Quake requires much more skill at timing and playing the items. You probably just didn't play both enough to know the difference. I'd like UT4 to have the same kind of depth but it's most likely not gonna happen. Mostly due to the lack of knowledge from developers and community.
            If only this wasnt 100% accurate. ;/

            There are different kinds of "pro" gamers in UT .....some have higher snipe accuracy...some have higher PU control...some have higher map/weapon control..some will own you with melee weapons...some will rape you with pulse/mini(although this was a looong time ago b4 pure rendered pulse/mini almost useless)
            If you watch QL tournaments carefully you'll notice there's a HUGE difference between each player. (I guess most casual players don't even notice the different styles)

            As I've mentioned there is a huge difference between a medium pro "pro" player and a "pro" pro player.
            You could have an even match between someone who knows how to time all the PUs and someone who actually knows how to play the game AND someone who knows how the play the map.

            Deck is a very bad(good) example.. you can win this map by basically timing TWO items: belt + sniper ..(in a duel)..........unless you are a FULL ****** you'll win the match.
            Once you've got sniper control - you've got sniper + belt + pads + shock + vials + link/pulse + BOOTS (+ RL). All your enemy can do is to camp shock(maybe the 2nd sniper) + armor and hope. Deck is basically a race about the first belt/armor and sniper. I'll never get why this map became that famous.. but then the large hallways are prolly the reason.

            Adding "complex" numbers to the item respawn times will add more complicity to the game itself.
            Literally every newbie can count 1:30:00min + 60 seconds but calculating 1:30:00 + 55s(+55secs+55secs+55secs) WHILE FIGHTING an opponent(fighting yourself/being stressed) is a lot harder than anyone of you 'programmers' can imagine.


            I sadly agree when Tobe says that most of the devs don't have the knowledge to develope a game that is 100% accurate and competitive while being fun.
            Whenever you give newbies the opportunity to "own" without actually achieving something...they basically stop caring.

            Just imagine:
            1v1 situation..
            Your enemy has got better accuracy + weapon knowledge (for whatever reason = mostly ...talent..= he didn't need to practice it)...and all you've got is the EXACT PUs timing AND map knowledge (because you cared enough to look it up/study it/whatever)
            As I have mentioned before.. ANYONE will be able to calculate 1min+60/30 seconds..even a 6yo could do it (._.) ...but remaining calm and calculating "complex" spawning times (55secs) requires a different level of commitment.
            Imagine you were racing someone in a 100m race...he's got NO skills at all apart from being fast..you on the other hand know how to start properly, how to pace yourself..how to practice properly..how to eat healthy....and now imagine they'll take all of this away...imagine you knew how to perform on this specific track...and now imagine they build all tracks the same way.
            At this point I'd really like to see some certain people/players to fight someone and recalculate their PU timining all the time.... It IS something you can learn.
            If you put respawn times to 30/60 secs there is nothing to learn about...every fool will adjust within 2 days. (even more with the 'respawn clocks'.. who knows why they added this)....imagine all you had to do was to run 100m within 30 seconds.
            This game should be about learning and adapting your skills..but when there is nothing you can learn it'll fail.

            Imagine you were being a shot-putter and everybody but you is scared about a wet shot put area....how would you like it if the host decided to wait until everything is dry again so the 'idiots' (who were too lazy and handsome/and bla to practice in rain) can perform their silly moves too?!
            This works with football/soccer too. Imagine you were playing in the WC and suddenly the referee decides...'HOLD ON ..WAIT...these POOR POOR guys from blabla country, they never practised playing in a wet environment...lets wait until its dry again'.... ._.

            Hitscan weapons are still dependent on ping/MS and I doubt it's going to change during the development of UT4 but if you are able to think ahead and construct complex movement/timing patterns you'll be able to OUTSMART your opponent while he's timing sniper/shock it's still worth something.
            Last edited by KingRichet; 05-01-2015, 10:07 PM.

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              #51
              Just because UT historically has had a more difficult than necessary (almost certainly due to an oversight) arithmetic minigame inside the real game, doesn't mean we have to keep doing it the exact same way it was done before.

              Out of control players have often known at what time armors spawn at in any of the UT games, they just weren't consistently able to contest it when they didn't also have a stack.

              If you're in control and you know when the shield spawns and you know the out of control opponent also knows when the shield spawns you should still be able to take care of them and be able to prevent that more often than not, if you're in the better position it shouldn't be a coin toss. That's pretty much how it always has been, players often see/hear their opponent picking up the shield.
              It just isn't the case now because projectiles are easy to hit and give a big momentum push, the link can pull you out of place, the hammer secondary can push you out of place while protecting the user etc etc.

              You can make the spawn time 47.28 seconds for all I care, I will still try to contest it if I know I have a decent shot at being successful which at this stage of development is kind of the case. You wouldn't get vastly different matches in any of the previous UT games if you changed their shield spawn time from 55 to 60 seconds, because the success rate of this tactic would be significantly lower.

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                #52
                I don't think it was an oversight, as much as it was to prevent people from knowing to the second when they spawned.

                Apparently, this withholding of information has created a stockholm syndrome, where now the players who took the time and effort to beat that system, feel like they are entitled to the advantages their efforts afforded them. Now that timing is accepted, and the goal is to have people more easily contesting them, the information is provided, and the fruits of their labor are less. The reality is though, is that they weren't learning ahead of the curve, they were beating preventative measures. Measures to prevent something that is now accepted.
                Originally posted by Mysterial
                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                  I don't think it was an oversight, as much as it was to prevent people from knowing to the second when they spawned.
                  It is 30 seconds in ut99 set to classic. Hardcore is a set of % modifiers to classic. 55/27.5 are surely an unintended result of whatever % scaling is used for the spawn times. Half a second is not intentional and the ut community assign way way way too much importance to it.

                  Who knows why the game shipped with hardcore as the default. Has any backstory ever shown up?

                  I think Stoild knows about the details for the %s and might be able to shed more light on that particular point.

                  Edit: Even with round numbers you "don't know when it spawns" exactly. Half a second could have elapsed since the game clock ticked from one second to the next.
                  Last edited by joellll; 05-02-2015, 04:48 AM.
                  Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Of course in FFA one of the 16 players will manage to grab the stuff at the exact moment is spawns. But in 1v1 the players can't simply be everywhere all the time like the swarm can.

                    It isn't helped by the facts that there are only 2 major items in the armor system and that they don't start up. If they started up, the time it takes to get to them would already offset the clocks and de-synch stuff, specially considering there would be choice between going for health, armor or weapons right off spawn.

                    Right now the default openings are a) grab Shock b) if you can't grab Shock, grab Sniper c) if you can do A or B, grab anything nearby and spam Shock while you head for Sniper. If armors were up on start, and if there were more versatility to the armor system with stacking and more items, openings would have much more depth and dynamism to them.
                    DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

                    Designer at Candango Games. Check my Gamasutra Blog.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                      I don't think it was an oversight, as much as it was to prevent people from knowing to the second when they spawned.
                      I can't say for UT2004, but there was a setting for the original UT that got adjusted called TimeDilation; it was set in the original UT when hardcore mode was on to affect gameplay speed, but it also affected pickup spawn speed by the same amount. UT2003/4 carried this time dilation factor over to all game mode settings even though everything was based on the hardcore setting of the original UT now. I'm pretty sure that affecting pickup timers in hardcore in the first UT was an accident, but it's anyone's guess whether or not it was intentional or still an accident in UT2.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Yes, the spawn times are result of the gamespeed, there is nothing in the source code about 27.5 or 55 seconds (which are only approximations of the actual spawn times anyway). They are set to 30 and 60 and what the actual spawn times are depend entirely on how fast you set the gamespeed.
                        I imagine they kept the same spawn gamespeed settings to have an easier time getting the game to feel the same, they could simply copy over most of the values from one game to another. I doubt they had item timing in mind with it.

                        One advance the gamespeed has as far as tweaking the overal speed of the game is that it's just one value you have to adjust. You don't have to edit a single map, everything you can jump on you can still jump onto, everything you couldn't jump on you still can't jump onto.
                        If you wanted to speed up the dodge speed now for example you have to increase the impulse, but that will also increase the distance you move so you'd have to reduce the angle of the dodge so that it matches the same distance again. Sounds good so far, until you try dodging off a height, the higher impulse will now take you further than it used to as your horizontal speed is higher. Now you have to change gravity too, which means you have to change jump impulse. With a change in gamespeed you'd simply end up on the same place, it just takes more time or less time depending which direction you change it in and by how much.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Stolid View Post
                          If you wanted to speed up the dodge speed now for example you have to increase the impulse, but that will also increase the distance you move so you'd have to reduce the angle of the dodge so that it matches the same distance again. Sounds good so far, until you try dodging off a height, the higher impulse will now take you further than it used to as your horizontal speed is higher. Now you have to change gravity too, which means you have to change jump impulse. With a change in gamespeed you'd simply end up on the same place, it just takes more time or less time depending which direction you change it in and by how much.
                          Sorry for off topic, but all of the above is exactly what I want done with the movement right now.

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                            #58
                            Well, whether the lack of consistency in game time, dilation, and item spawn time was intentional, the lack of clock in the stock hud was. I suppose then the only question is was it because these inconsistencies were known, or because they didn't want people timing.

                            What is for certain is that they made no effort to avoid these inconsistencies to facilitate timing, so it as a mechanic, or skill curve was not intended.

                            In 2kx, it was certainly "accepted", as the clock was in the hud, and these arbitrary settings changes were not factors. You could time by the clock, and it was given. Why they kept the numbers they did in 2kx then, is hard to say.

                            What is not hard to say is their current stance. Pickups drive action, and they can more effectively do their job if information on their acquisition is not withheld, or cryptic.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                              #59
                              How to make spawn pads spawn random stiff

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