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  • #61
    Shield belt not OP imho.... never has been.... The key to UT always was movement around the maps, and control of the items... Whilst the armour and thigh pads might not be as good as the Shield belt,
    usually they compensate nicely, and are often on the other side of the map or similar to the shield belt.. or the shield belt is placed somewhere, where an ensuing scrap for the item is commonplace, and the winner or player that collects the belt can be a bit random... A skilled player sometimes wont even collect the belt straight away, they use it as bait, and pick of the newbies heading straight at the glowing item

    I love watching some of these old Videos of people with similar skill sets... they kind of prove that the shield belt is not OP imo...and that its player movement and timing that is everything...

    https://youtu.be/UoHMmA0vyb0

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    • #62
      My issue with that argumentation is that you're not treating this like a new game. Sure, certain principles should carry over, as it is still an arena style arcade shooter, but when you say "I"m controlling the armor and getting beat by guys who rush with certain weapons" it really just sounds like your saying "The game is different now and I don't want to change my tactics."

      At the very least, you could report on your successes trying different ways to play the game and report them as being less rewarding. I'm having a hard time imagining that skill isn't still what's winning these fights, it's just that you're exercising the wrong ones.

      My issue with overpowered armors is that when I do control the armors, the game is no fun. The advantages they grant deprive me of any challenge beyond controlling them, and I reserved judgment on that until I actually was exposed to both an evenly matched game, and a shut out in my favor. I think it's more fun to out maneuver and out shoot someone with an advantage than someone I have an advantage over, and it's the constant positive feed back of DM that's always turned me off about it.

      Playing the game a certain way regardless of how it's supposed to be played, or regardless of what works, is a recipe for stagnation. If you're just going to exercise the same strategy, tactics, and mentality towards how to play the game, and petition it for change until it fits your mold of a shooter, this game will never grow.

      The weapons and movement are bollocks right now. Really, having any discussion about how OP the belt is will be HEAVILY biased by how easily so much damage can be done with the current guns and movement.
      Originally posted by Mysterial
      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
        When you say "I"m controlling the armor and getting beat by guys who rush with certain weapons" it really just sounds like your saying "The game is different now and I don't want to change my tactics."

        ...

        The weapons and movement are bollocks right now.
        That's my point? Grab armor, some random flak shot you see coming a mile off , yet you can't dodge it and 1 second later all your armor is gone and you're down to 40hp on the backfoot

        Someone made a good point in the Q&A thread about Epic outsourcing the movement and weapons to the community. I asked a question on todays stream about weapon balance and I got an answer of "Projectile weapons have always been powerful" then Jim Brown going on about some Bio rifle scenario I couldn't make any sence of. Not to be harsh or sound elitist but I get the impression they don't have a clue about what they're talking about, I can call them out on that after playing their games competitively for over a decade and nothing they say on those subjects makes any sense to me, it's all mumbo jumbo and gap filling

        Yes the weapons were always powerful, but they were much harder to hit with, slower, more situational and easier to dodge/evade due to the movement. They sped up the weapons ten fold yet made the movement slower ( might be engine related ) either way, the result is a big mess. Surely they must be aware of how broken the gameplay is...

        When you think about it, what percentage of time in this whole project has been devoted to movement stuff / weapon trials and changes. 5% ?Weapon balance is the hardest thing to get down in an AFPS, it should have been prioritized as should the mouse input and movement, and now we're starting to see the effects of ignoring such gameplay mechanics with threads popping up all over the place. That's not to say I'm ungrateful for Epic making a new UT game, I am, I just think there method of "balancing" movement and weapons has been nonexistent. Sorry for the rant, been a long day
        Last edited by nuxx; 06-04-2015, 01:09 AM.

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        • #64
          Tactics? What tactics? I thought this was UT4.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tobe` View Post
            Tactics? What tactics? I thought this was UT4.
            +back works pretty well. It's hard to catch up to someone when dodge feels like you are floating in the air.

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            • #66
              This isn't a thread about weapons or movement. I agree with you on those.

              Originally posted by nuxx View Post
              Not to be harsh but I get the impression they don't have a clue about what they're talking about, I can call them out on that after playing their games competitively for over a decade and nothing they say on those subjects make any sense, it's all mumbo jumbo and gap filling
              This is how I'm starting to feel about their original take on DM mechanics. I think they mimic'd a format and got lucky. Many aspects of how timing became a thing, and what aspects of it are important I feel was just blind stumbling that happened to work. Now that they are actually trying to cultivate some of those mechanics, like explicitly messaging to the player in game that timing is a thing, they are getting resistance from the "this is what I'm now used to" crowd.

              On weapons, I actually agree with a lot of their sentiment, but it's just not reflected in the current execution.

              Originally posted by nuxx View Post
              Yes the weapons were always powerful, but they were much harder to hit with, slower, more situational and easier to dodge/evade due to the movement. They sped up the weapons ten fold yet made the movement slower ( might be engine related ) either way, the result is a big mess. Surely they must be aware of how broken the gameplay is...
              I hope it's concessions they've made to accommodate ping compensation. I also hope they will soon abandon that effort. My first instinct is that your wording wasn't concise enough. I feel efficacy is the best way to describe what we have an issue with. Saying the weapons are too powerful, and UT was the best game in the franchise looks pretty in congruent, as their "power" was at most in hardcore mode. Weapon efficacy in UT however, was much lower to balance the higher power. That formula seemed to work best.

              I think another ironic aspect of the current weapons discussion is that the most sane voice on balance has been Mysterial, and yet every time he voices a stance, he gets a ton of resistance. The real problem we are faced with is a lot of voices on the forums in support of what they like. We say "weapons need to be harder to use" and don't generally get a lot of vocal opposition. Say "the sniper rifle should be projectile" and 97 out of the next 100 posts will be terrible argumentation as to why it should stay hit scan. Then when you have something with as many moving parts as rockets, even if everyone can agree that they should be toned down, no one can agree on which attributes to cut down, let alone an alternative fire that doesn't just provide you with a lowered skill ceiling alternative for the primary fire.

              I think what it's really going to take, is for people to start blue printing entire weapon sets. Stop focusing on one weapon at a time, and blueprint the whole set how you think it should be balanced. They are all interdependent, so if you're resistance to nerfing rockets is that you don't want it to be that much weaker than sniper, then you're not going to get anywhere.
              Originally posted by Mysterial
              An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by -AEnubis- View Post
                I think what it's really going to take, is for people to start blue printing entire weapon sets. Stop focusing on one weapon at a time, and blueprint the whole set how you think it should be balanced. They are all interdependent, so if you're resistance to nerfing rockets is that you don't want it to be that much weaker than sniper, then you're not going to get anywhere.
                Here here. Hear hear? Whatever. This is an excellent point.
                Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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                • #68
                  I agree on having an entire weapon set would be a great way to test interaction, but without an extensive coding background this is impractical for most people besides changing the most basic settings

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                  • #69
                    That's pretty much why I haven't done it.
                    Originally posted by Mysterial
                    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I thought about doing it several times and probably would've done something like it by now if it weren't such a pain at the moment. You'd have to either make a mutator like the movement prototyper with dozens if not hundreds of variables in it (I don't think this is even possible at the moment) or you'd have to make each weapon on it's own which would require people to use the weapon replacement mutator and configure it for every single weapon. Testing, tweaking and sharing this way isn't great. The somewhat frequent changes to the netcode that potentially alter weapon efficacy are also a factor as was the constant assumption movement would be finalized in the short term.

                      Something else that just makes me reluctant to do it now is that it would be somewhat of a stamp of approval for the current movement. It's a lot of a work and bothering to do it when the movement isn't great and at the same time determines weapon efficacy so much it doesn't feel like it would be worth it. Why make something work that you don't want to have in the game in that state? At this point you'd have to mod the entire core gameplay to get to something that truly reflects what you'd like to see.

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                      • #71
                        Wail has been making weapons, most of the weapons he's done are really good. His flak and ripper especially feel so clean, much better than any of the weapons in the base game. I hope they get better recognition soon, maybe he`ll be able to get his own servers online specifically for testing

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                        • #72
                          Saw your question on the stream, the answer as I interpreted it was that their primary focus is keeping projectiles in line with hit scan. Which I agree currently that they are. They are all much easier to use, and hit scan isn't much different than it has been.

                          So we need to figure out how to make hit scan more difficult to warrant having challenging projectiles again, without completely dissuading it's fans. It's difficult, because there really is very little you can do to reward evasive movement against hit scan weapons, stop short of just acknowledging how one sided they are and reflecting that in their damage, or finding other ways to punish their misuse by increasing their risk.

                          Problem being, I don't think most of the people who advocate high powered hit scan weapons want balanced weapons.
                          Originally posted by Mysterial
                          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                          • #73
                            The weapons don't feel tiered. I wouldn't care if there was no hitscan weapons as long as the projectiles were challenging

                            If you take for e.g. the shotgun in Quake Live

                            Player 1 - 15 % acc - New player to FPS games
                            Player 2 - 25 % acc - Has FPS history but new to Quake
                            Player 3 - 35 % acc - Good player with 2 years Quake experience
                            Player 4 - 45 % acc - Skilled quaker who's been around a long time

                            That's just 4 tiers, I think there's 4 in that game but I'm not entirely sure, but it seems about right

                            Now take its UT4 brother the flak cannon

                            Player 1 - 25 % acc - New to FPS games
                            Player 2 - 40% acc - Has FPS History but new to UT4, been playing for 1 month ( will reach 50% within 2 month, seen it with my own eyes)
                            Player 3 - 50% acc - Good player with 2 years experience in previous UT games
                            Player 4 - 50% acc - Skilled UT player who's been around a long time

                            It's the same thing with rockets, pulse primary, big combos, right down to the lack of agility in the impact hammer

                            I knew I had the UT4 flak nailed down after 1 hour of playing, I still stuggle vs better players with it in UT99, or vs quakers with there shotgun skills, this is probably down to the movement mostly. I like the slide mechanic but i'd take 99 style snappyness over it instantly

                            What point I'm trying to make I don't know, just that people are going to get bored very fast imo if this game becomes projectile dominated with such weapons Epic are implementing.

                            I'm going to take a break from this game and forum for a while as it feels like wasted time spent repeating things I've said 100 times and I can't help but feel negative about everything gameplay and feedback related, its dragging me down. I just expected a different experience and direction for this game. When the mouse input and movement are better I`ll come back again to be a pain in the arse, all the best. I hope ut4 picks up with the gameplay

                            p.s. I didn't mean to post the Homer cornflakes milk pic. I just googled it , thinking about hitscan vs projectiles and what the gameplay ended up like, but it seems appropriate.
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                            Last edited by nuxx; 06-04-2015, 08:14 AM.

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                            • #74
                              I don't think it's OP. That being said I think it is kind of silly that the shoulder pads spawn before the belt. It used to be a consolation prize to the guy who missed the belt/100a and helped to even it out. Now whoever gets it has a big advantage in the fight for belt along with probably being a frag up from the shoulder pad fight.

                              Someone better at dueling correct me if this isn't the case.
                              Come join us for pickup games http://ut4pugs.us

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                              • #75
                                I was kinda disturbed by how the response the question got on stream. (about how projectile weapons are currently op)

                                They gave the general message that they were intending to balance the projectile weapons for the good of high level play but what they didn't seem to realise is that it's often the high level competitive players who are saying that projectiles are too powerful :/

                                Right now flak and rockets completely dominate the game. I'd say epic have gone far and beyond what's necessary to put projectile weapons on par with hitscan weapons and they are in serious need of a maximum damage/ease of damage reduction. Imo they should still have a greater damage potential than the hitscan weapons, but it should be harder to get that damage so there is a certain risk factor to using one but also a more satisfying reward

                                On the topic of blueprinting weaponsets I think this could be really helpful in the development of the game from a competitive standpoint, there could even be some kind of "comp mode" that uses one of these, specifically tailored to hit the right balence between the "oomph" that ut guns are known for and the balance that a game like quake has. I'd be happy to make a weaponset if there was the ability to just replace all the guns at once via mutator. It's something that I think could shorten the balancing proces by a huge amount.
                                :|

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