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Weapon Respawn Time in TDM

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  • #16
    Originally posted by garuDa View Post
    I might give TDM a shot if weapons spawn every 20 seconds or less.
    For me TDM always felt boring in ut2k4 as most of the time you were running around with shieldgun raised because the assault rifle was useless and all the other weapons were allready taken.
    The idea, and probably also the trick to balancing it, is that in an organized game your teammates will drop you weapons. It encourages teamwork. The problem with balancing it is that it needs to encourage weapon sharing in organized games and still be fun in public servers. In any case no one should be able to get any gun all of the time and no one should not be able to find something.
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    • #17
      Preface: I love weaponstay off*.

      Originally posted by nuxx View Post
      This is fairly obvious stuff but I said I'd point it out and it would be some of the reasons I think changing weapon spawn times might impact the game negatively. It also ties in some of the stuff why I'm against item timers

      The codex example is the argument for why weapons should be taken off the armor spawn time for duel and possibly TDM. Not necessarily shorter and the weapons are not necessarily the items that should be changed..

      Having different times forces the player to consciously time/control specific weapon(s) as well as the armor. Not simply run a lap. It makes players select weapons they want to deny and further restricts in control player movement and limits available time. Limiting available player time is the goal here, the side effect is making control "harder".

      In the codex example with 20 second weapon spawns the shock would be coming up before the armor. The player has a choice - hang at the jacket for the next 10 seconds leaving weapons spawning or go collect weapons, to arrive back at the jacket in time for it to pop. Keeping in mind if they managed to pickup the same weapons you did there will be some they cannot get to before the jacket becomes available. In addition weapons would be spawning while the in control player is going for the jacket, making denial selection more important than it currently is.

      20 seconds is plenty of time to control a large number of weapons - but it will be harder and the player will have to be much more deliberate. This forum is full of posts about weaponstay off adding depth but in general there are very few examples of how. Rankin in 2kx with lg/shock/50a/vials is the most commonly cited example. Out of 15 years of games if there is one example where players deliberately play differently there is something up.

      Interestingly changing the jacket to 20 seconds would have a similar effect, at least for duel.

      Historically there is a precedent for shorter respawns in the base game - health packs in ut99 have a 20 second spawn.

      ----
      Fun side stuff.
      Quakeworld TDM essentially has one weapon: the rocket launcher. It is on a 30 second respawn and one of the core maps has a single pickup (e1m2). This creates an interesting, almost class based dynamic in TDM where players without weapons become scouts, entering rooms ahead of weapons to get intel or flood together to kill players with weapons. Unweaponed players dying is relatively unimportant and spending 5+ unarmored/unweaponed player frags to kill a rocket launcher is not uncommon. Avoiding weapon drops on death is important. Not to say that ut should go down this path of slow weapon stacking but it does give a different perspective on things. The armor has a 20 second respawn so there are often more armored players than there are weapons available.

      *In fact I would like to see it off in some manner for all game types, not in the same way as traditional ut, but something that allows shorter term denial. eg 5 seconds in ctf so a flag runner could grab weapons on the way out of the base to neuter chasing by fresh respawned players, 3 seconds in ffa so a player can deny a weapon for the duration of a skirmish, etc.
      Last edited by joellll; 06-19-2015, 11:33 PM.
      Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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      • #18
        I 100% agree that weapon respawns should be used for TDM and that 30 seconds is way too long for anything besides duel.

        Rather than suggesting a single respawn time, I think the respawn time should vary based on the number of players in the game. Something like:

        2v2 - 20 seconds
        3v3 - 15 seconds
        4v4 - 10 seconds

        However, perhaps the worst part is that it's currently not user-configurable at all. At the very least server admins should be able to set this so it can be experimented with and a consensus for competitive play determined.

        Slightly off-topic but I'd add that I always preferred Quake's method of universal 5-10 second respawns for FFA and other casual gametypes to UT's method of "weapon stay" either earlier on, or in UT3 with per-player respawn times. Even if the respawn time is short, it is nice to be able to deny it temporarily from the enemy.
        Last edited by Gnalvl; 06-21-2015, 03:45 PM.

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        • #19
          30 seconds is better than 20 seconds at TDM. Makes the game less random and lets one team establish control easier. 20 seconds is better than 30 seconds in duel because the player in control can synch up weapons with armor to easily and totally lock down a map which u can easily see from playind asdf and solo atm. bad duel maps for that reason imo.

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          • #20
            to have different timers in tdm/duel for weapons appears wrong to me tho

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            • #21
              The one thing this discussion about weapon respawn times is overlooking is this: it's my server and no one here should be deciding how my server functions. Personally, waiting for weapons to respawn kills the game for me. I want to play, not stand around hiding with my dick in my hand, which is about as much fun as ED. I should be able to set up my server so the weapons are always available, should I choose to do so ... or otherwise set the respawn time as the mood strikes me. If you don't want to play on my server, with my configuration, fine, don't. OTOH, if I want to play on your server, I'll follow your rules, or leave.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by {DvT}Hex View Post
                The one thing this discussion about weapon respawn times is overlooking is this: it's my server and no one here should be deciding how my server functions. Personally, waiting for weapons to respawn kills the game for me. I want to play, not stand around hiding with my dick in my hand, which is about as much fun as ED. I should be able to set up my server so the weapons are always available, should I choose to do so ... or otherwise set the respawn time as the mood strikes me. If you don't want to play on my server, with my configuration, fine, don't. OTOH, if I want to play on your server, I'll follow your rules, or leave.
                Classic tdm was available in the other games, weapon stay is on. Tdm "pro" it's off

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by luxxiz View Post
                  The beauty of TDM is controlling a map, and you do that by having players time certain weapons for certain parts of a map
                  /luxxiz
                  First of all, I respect that you have competitive experience, but new players don't even think about controlling a map. They just want kills in an organized, easy to understand, fashion. That's why TAM became so popular.

                  I think TDM, in its current form is where it should be for competitive gaming, but I also agree with nvz: a more newbie-friendly version of TDM is somewhat required (not saying it should replace the current TDM).

                  I've also come across a lot of experienced people (mostly on TeamSpeak) who agreed that DM should be left aside every now and then, for not being noob-friendly at all. Experienced players usually play DM in an organized, easy to understand (spectate) way, but new-players turn it into chaos. Out of Duel, DM, TDM and CTF, I think only Duel and CTF are truly strategic.

                  My suggestion would be to have 2 weeks of CTF and custom GameModes (maybe TDM, but I'd incline to say no) and 1 week of all the GameModes. Epic will probably never modify their own hubs, so whoever will want to play DM/TDM could play it there in the 2-week period. I'm proposing this because players seems ot start a lot of DM matches and those who want to play something else end up joining those DM matches simply because they have no one to play with.

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                  • #24
                    Looking at the video above with Codex, TDM respawn time definitely should be less than 30 seconds. Cause in that video weapon/play skill is pretty much completely substituted with map control skill.
                    "Yeah. _Lynx can fire the lightning gun, have the lightning bolt turn a 90 degree corner, stop and ask the closest teammate for directions, confuse the directions and get lost, realize it went the wrong way, make a U-Turn, and get a headshot on the intended target."
                    - RenegadeRetard

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                    • #25
                      The current weapon re-spawn time feels great, IMO. If it was anything less at the current character movement speed, it would be impossible to control any weapon(s) via duel.
                      www.mouserpad.com

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by vlad.serbanescu11 View Post
                        First of all, I respect that you have competitive experience, but new players don't even think about controlling a map. They just want kills in an organized, easy to understand, fashion. That's why TAM became so popular.

                        I think TDM, in its current form is where it should be for competitive gaming, but I also agree with nvz: a more newbie-friendly version of TDM is somewhat required (not saying it should replace the current TDM).

                        I've also come across a lot of experienced people (mostly on TeamSpeak) who agreed that DM should be left aside every now and then, for not being noob-friendly at all. Experienced players usually play DM in an organized, easy to understand (spectate) way, but new-players turn it into chaos. Out of Duel, DM, TDM and CTF, I think only Duel and CTF are truly strategic.

                        My suggestion would be to have 2 weeks of CTF and custom GameModes (maybe TDM, but I'd incline to say no) and 1 week of all the GameModes. Epic will probably never modify their own hubs, so whoever will want to play DM/TDM could play it there in the 2-week period. I'm proposing this because players seems ot start a lot of DM matches and those who want to play something else end up joining those DM matches simply because they have no one to play with.
                        Thats funny because thats something I heard it recently and I Know where it comes from. Duel being more stratégic than tdm. Thats so wrong I dont Know how to explain? Tdm basically has everything duel has , + team communication/coordination, and the fact you havé to deal with multiple opponents/shots coming from différent angles

                        Of course when new vcomers play it its a mess. And its the case for every game type including duel.

                        Indeed CTF has something else, but translocator Just ruinsthe fun for me
                        Last edited by boNz; 06-29-2015, 10:07 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by boNz View Post
                          Thats funny because thats something I heard it recently and I Know where it comes from. Duel being more stratégic than tdm. Thats so wrong I dont Know how to explain? Tdm basically has everything duel has , + team communication/coordination, and the fact you havé to deal with multiple opponents/shots coming from différent angles

                          Of course when new vcomers play it its a mess. And its the case for every game type including duel.

                          Indeed CTF has something else, but translocator Just ruinsthe fun for me
                          You quoted my entire post so I'm not sure what it is you heard before, but I'm assuming it's the suggestion. I heard a more drastic approach as well, but in the end it's important to be spit out, no matter who does it. No "copyright" intended.

                          TDM is more complex, I totally agree, but:

                          1. Compared to Duels, it's too complex to manage it properly. There is a leader who manages a team, but you can't argue that the shots fired are an understandable and manageable factor, seriously.

                          2. Pure, competitive TDM is far less played than Duels.

                          Finally, I understand your opinion on CTF, but it's not exactly objective. The translocator adds depth and strategy, again, no argument there.

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                          • #28
                            Shorter weapon respawn time will change TDM (and duel probably) in mindless shooter game mode. I don't care about newcomers, I want fun for me! It's nothing fun in just running and shooting.
                            Newcomers should adapt to the game rules. There are tutorials if they want. UT is really easy game to understand (in comparison to Starcraft for example).
                            Last edited by rAge.; 06-29-2015, 11:05 AM.
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                            • #29
                              I think maps play big role in this, many of current maps are too small or do not have enough weapons for competitive 4v4 TDM.

                              Take for example DM-Chill, the map plays out decently well in 2v2 setting and 4v4 with WS on, but 4v4 WS off ends up often in enforcer fights everywhere because nobody has a gun, or other team has plenty of guns and locks down the map without much of an effort. Wide open map design doesn't help that issue, unfortunately.

                              In few months or so, we should have more playable TDM maps and this might be solved with just correct mappool for competitive play. New players can play WS on in public servers, since there's hardly any coordination/communication or weapon sharing in public games.

                              Although looking at that Codex video, it seemed way too easy to perform lockdown of pretty much all important items in that map.
                              UT ingame alias: nukkuj
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                              • #30
                                You should have in mind that there will be probably be matchmaking at some time that basically means that only players with the same skill level will be playing against each other in matchmaking, that means experienced players who are playing on a higher level know how important it is to controll weapons (by timing them), ppl who are not that experienced will not pay that much attention on weapons.

                                That means it's not really a problem because as long as you can still get a weapon as an experienced player vs a good team which has maplock the timings are ok imo. Of course getting weapons is much harder then, but atleast when belt / amp is spawning players of the team which has the current maplock have to leave there current weapon position to cover those items, while that you can get weapons.

                                You could count that as ~3 weapons per belt which should be enough. Anyway good teams always have been good because they could controll weapons and create a heavy maplock. I didn't play much 4on4 yet tho, so this is rather theoretical.
                                If you lower tdm weaponspawn times heavily you are taking out a really strategic point, which in my opinion, would not go very good hand in hand with the competitive scene.
                                Last edited by raLa; 06-29-2015, 12:26 PM.

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