[OFFICIAL] Showdown Feedback

[Mysterial]

In the most recent build we added a new round based 1v1 gametype, Showdown. For those not familiar, the rules are:

- 1 life per round
- Pickups do not respawn
- 200 base health (health packs can heal to 200, vials/superhealth can heal to 299)
- Timed powerups (UDamage/Berserk) are 15 seconds
- Default round time is 2 minutes; if it runs out, player with most effective HP remaining wins
- Choose from one of two completely random spawn points per round (unlike Duel, can spawn near opponent)

As this is a new experiment, many aspects are in flux. We would like more community feedback. Please play it and post your constructive thoughts.

Also, please play the gametype as designed. Yes, that means pick up the UDamage. We need and want all of the game's possibilities to work. If it isn't, we need in-depth feedback on why not and what can be done about it. Playing with "gentleman's rules" is not helping us develop the game.

In particular, the below are primary topics of discussion:
- Spawn system. In the next build, we are trying a system where each player picks their spawn from an overhead map and both players know where that is. (See today's stream) Hopefully, this will open up some more strategic thinking. It would be interesting to get some feedback on whether choosing first or second would be considered favorable.
- Health system. 200 base health is somewhat unintuitive, but it's important that rounds not end with a single rocket or shock combo. We could grant armor on spawn instead, but the current system has some interesting useful properties, like adding the advantage to the player that picks up the chest and thigh pads instead of the shield belt being able to heal damage immediately.
- Round resolution/Defensive play. This is something we are keeping an eye on, but haven't made any decisions yet. It's not clear yet whether some instances of defensiveness are a result of the map being played, "old-school" Duel logic, or it actually being the most effective. If you do perceive this to be a problem, be sure to think about possible solutions and especially the inevitable downsides. Try to think a step or two ahead of how experienced players will try to abuse such a system.

Of course, feedback on other areas is also valuable, this is just what we're thinking of right now. Let us know your thoughts.

[Mysterial]

Linking this in to unify, feel free to quote here.

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/...own-Discussion

[Clawfist]

Super excited about this!

Adding to what Matt said - feedback is really most useful going in with an open mind and no preconceived notions of what duel "should play like" (ha!). Same goes for trying different maps with different styles and seeing what works well and what doesn't. That doesn't mean we are looking to homogenize what good Showdown maps are supposed to be (at this point at least if ever really). It's actually quite interesting to see different maps promote different styles of play and pacing (i.e. big vs small) and it'll have a pretty big impact on the type of experience you are getting, so your feedback will be most valuable if you are going in with an open mind. I.e. - give DM-Tuba a chance and see what shakes out of it

[Zaccubus]

will give some more test asap

[Quadj130]

I think Sir Brizz mentioned in another thread that the UDamage and Berserk should remain persistent. I think that is the best idea because the idea of one player getting both UDamage and Berserk and the other getting hunted through map seeking makes the gametype unfair imo. YOu can only hide for so long.

[Numb.51]

I'll host a few duels with it and archive the matches tonight. It's a shame we can't get a hold of the updated spawn system. That imo would make this game mode far more playable.

[Clawfist]

I'll host a few duels with it and archive the matches tonight. It's a shame we can't get a hold of the updated spawn system. That imo would make this game mode far more playable.

Yeah for sure - lots of potential depth and interesting choice/tradeoffs there. Just try and pretend it's there and try and imagine what else could make this cooler/better

[joellll]

To echo from the other thread. I love openings, love armors being added back in at the start (please for duel too?), love that aggressive play at the start is quite tense because you know you are possibly sacrificing weapons/armor by doing so.. but once pickups are gone there is very little to make anything happen. Could you add an indicator for which player will "win" if the round expires and not leave players guessing?

After the initial pickups there is little to get combat happening - This is reason it is likened to TAM, RA, CA. There is no obvious reason to pressure the other player. Players making the TAM parallel probably understand that the start is different, understand the opening may add depth/mix it up/keep it fresh, understand that there are options at the opening for differences. However once this settles down and most of the pickups are gone the game is very similar to 1v1 in those arena style gametypes. An indicator of who is "winning" on health might be enough rectify this. 2 minutes (I think it is 3 in the current build?) might also help.

Please teams..

Personally I would like to see the spaw selection kept the same as duel with spawns invert every round. This opens up selecting "weak" spawns (as you get to screw your opponent on their next spawn), keeps some of the "work out where the other player is" aspect while also having rounds where both players know where each other is. Having said that I can see how the map + knowing every spawn would probably appeal to a broader audience :/

[Mysterial]

2 minutes (I think it is 3 in the current build?) might also help.

2 minutes is supposed to be the round time. Some HUBs seem to have no round time limit with the default settings, which is an issue we're investigating. If it happens, you can use the Custom tab to manually set the proper time limit (and try out different maps)

[Avalanche._]

Personally I would like to see the spawns kept the same as duel with spawns invert every round. This opens up selecting "weak" spawns (as you get to screw your opponent on their next spawn), keeps some of the "work out where the other player is" aspect while also having rounds where both players know where each other is.

I like the sound of this, could have something like a coin-toss on who gets to pick the very first spawn (first round), and then in the second round it will be inverted, third round the other person will pick first, fourth round inverted again, and goes on like that until it's over.

[Numb.51]

I played last night and recorded some crappy footage I don't really want anyone to see, but here is what I found.

Each round kind of works in predictable waves of combat. It doesn't happen like this all the time because it depends on the map and where each player spawns, but if I were to assume how a game will play out, I would describe it like this. The round is played out in a series of waves.

Note: this is my experience on dm-asdf, but the waves remain similar for each map regardless of it having amp or not.

The first wave is the "resource rush" wave. In this wave, if players spawn far from each other, they will rush to first get a powerful weapon followed by the best armor in their area, or vice versa depending on what is closer. Any immediate altercation is going to more than likely be defensive. Players are rushing for resources and if they happen to see the enemy while doing so they may only throw a few shots and leave to keep on collecting. If they spawn right next to one another, someones gonna die plain and simple unless they get lucky and make a quick escape.

The second wave is the "aggression" wave. Here is the most exciting spectator part of the match. Both players are stacked with armor/health and their assortment of weapons. They fight and fight until one or both players decide it's time to back off. This option is only available if no one sustains a high damage killing blow in this phase. Killing blows happen, but it's rare vs two equally skilled opponents because they generally know when to stop rushing and start playing defensively.

The third wave is the "defensive retreat" wave. This is after both players diminished most of their resources and are avoiding direct conflict/ line of sight to search for any resources they missed such as health and ammo that was partially unnecessary to get at the resource rush wave. Fighting happens but there is no full commitment.

The fourth and final wave is the "defensive combat" wave. There are no resources left on the map, and the only thing left is two players with probably a few rounds of ammo left in each gun. This phase is really slow paced and involves very calculated in and out line of sight movement and position advantage. Both players are using what ever weapons they didn't deplete at the beginning such as bio, stinger, mini, and most likely enforcer. This wave is frankly full of passive and boring fighting, and it needs some sort of dynamic change to keep it interesting. It can be full of adrenaline for the player, but I'd imagine it's boring for a spectator.

Overall I like the mode. I'm going to push the immoralists guys to play it more and accept it. (Wish me luck)

Pros -

More exciting spectator sport than normal duel IMO.

Easier for a beginner to grasp.

Easy to play but probably hard to master (to be determined)

More forgiving than duel

Round based prevents total steam roll (sort of)

Amp works quite well on solo... Not so much deck

Cons -

5 rounds in a match is too little. The game feels more like a warmup than an actual match

The last wave is boring to spectate due to the risk at stake causing players to play extremely defensively.

The game in general (not the game type) caters to defensive play, causing 3 out of 4 waves to be defensive oriented.


Suggestions. Maybe add a dynamic event in the games last wave to draw incentive to get players to play aggressively. The last wave is boring and full of hide and peek gameplay. If players had an objective, such as a point to control or an item to get, then maybe it will spice things up.

I will post more experiences as I play more.

[Gooba]

Suggestions. Maybe add a dynamic event in the games last wave to draw incentive to get players to play aggressively. The last wave is boring and full of hide and peek gameplay. If players had an objective, such as a point to control or an item to get, then maybe it will spice things up.

I was thinking this. +1

A control point/king of the hill situation (holding a point for a certain amount of time wins you the match), that favors the more aggressive player that gets to that point first, and also forces the defensive player to come out of hiding.

[Numb.51]

I was thinking this. +1

A control point/king of the hill situation (holding a point for a certain amount of time wins you the match), that favors the more aggressive player that gets to that point first, and also forces the defensive player to come out of hiding.

I agree Gooba. If Mysterial is gonna make a new school type of duel, he might as well spice things up a bit and do something that hasn't been done before. Plus, I heard that Showdown is going to have a team version. This king of the hill at the end of the match would be spectacular to watch in that environment due to so much being on the line. My only concern is that I don't want to see two players battling over the control point with no ammo. Maybe there is a small amount of ammo regen while in/near the control point?

Another suggestion, but a bit far fetched would be to have different types of power-ups that promote aggressive play. The shield belt can promote aggressive play, but the fact is the player can choose to play passive or aggressive due to it having no time constraints. The amp and berserk are power-ups that promote aggressive play due to their countdown timer, but they are a little overkill in a round based game. Berserk is not really a smart power up to get due to this game mode being ammo dependent, unless the opponent has stinger or link. Amp works fine in DM-solo because there are a ton of line of sight obstacles to separate opponents, but in deck it's just straight up unfair because of the inability to run away. Creating new power ups not currently in the game might be the solution.

The problem with creating new aggressive based power ups in the game would be to try and make them fit into existing maps.
Should there be two aggressive power-ups to promote a clash?
Would one aggressive power-up make one player be super aggressive and the other be super defensive every time?
Would these power-ups replace current armor power-ups, if so... should the player start with armor at spawn?

What types of power-ups could work that would promote aggressive play WITHOUT utterly destroying the opponent?

Temporary (10 seconds?)
-Movement speed increase
-infinite ammo
-no self damage (rocket jumps)


I just want to see epic battles in showdown that are exciting to watch and not the current peekaboo gameplay we are seeing.

[RPGWiZ4RD]

I like Showdown, to me it's much more fun than traditional duels (I'm not a dueller kind of player though) but Showdown can be fun every now and then especially since I don't like the whole map control/timing point of view of duel which is the most important aspect of duel. I also believe Showdown has better spectator-value to it so I'm glad this experiment is being done.

The tricky part about showdown is BALANCING and that plays such a vital role if this mode ever would end up being played competitively. The pickup placement, the spawnpoints, maybe even tweaks to the pickups for this particular gamemode only will be critical.

+1 to Numb.51, he made a lot of good points.

[Stolid]

I've compared the later stage of the rounds to 1v1 TAM (and I think most rounds will reach that stage if competition increases), but it also reminds me of the Battle Royale gametype in Arma/H1Z1.
The reason that gametype works is because the area you are allowed to play in keeps shrinking as time passes. This forces the 200 players on the huge map to engage or die.
There isn't really such a thing in Showdown at the moment, though I don't see this exact mechanism working on a small duel map. Perhaps something that prevents access to certain areas or pickups could work, but I'm not sure what kind of general rules could work well on every map.

I'm not sure a control point kind of mechanic would work well either, at least in a duel gametype. I imagine it would look similar to the 5-10 seconds before the belt spawns in normal duel. It's often quite defensive with people trying to either (1) defend and ambush, (2) get it when they know the other player isn't near or (3) rush the player near it if they know the other player is on very low health. I don't think this would create particularly exciting games.

For a team version this mechanic could work though. Without a team it would be like playing the bomb scenario in CS:GO in 1v1, it would lack a lot of the good things about it that playing it with teams brings to it.