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    Choosing not to grab that weapon in most of the TSD I played, means not having one. Not a great tactic.

    The purpose being defeated of having items, was kind of my point. If they are going to use them, they should respawn, and in normal time. If want to make the game more "tactical" and have less long term steam rolling, then why not just respawn everything but the players normally? Rounds might go on a bit longer, but at least there would be normal incentives to move about the map and aggress. I'd rather see old school "No weapons stay" than how it is now. It would make weapon denial a bit eaiser, as well as limit it's efficacy, and still not make the game suffer through all the stalemate/kiting/defensive play that is not good for spectators.

    My point was the current implementation feels like the designers forgot the purpose of spawning items. If they are only up at the beginning, and you only get one run at equipping, actually having to "pick the guns up" and not simply spawning with a limited loadout feels like a tedious formality.
    Originally posted by Mysterial
    An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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      Indeed, the main choice you get is where to spawn which is determined by the choices from the players before you. Usually your only choices left at that point are whether you go for the weapon or the nearby armor/powerup. Or even just which order you pick them up in. After that you choose where to go, which is again based on the spawn location of yourself and the rest of the players. This gives picking a lot of importance, which could be entirely fine, but if rest of the gametype doesn't offer much beyond that than it will only appeal to people who really love that picking stage. There is no real reason to assume a significant portion of people who like TDM or TAM will enjoy it that much to switch over and play showdown instead.

      The idea of a new gametype should be to offer something extra, an extra that appeals to a lot of people. It might be impossible to attract players from both gametypes, but as it stands now I unfortunately can't imagine it attracting many players from either gametype, or any gametype or game for that matter.

      Comment


        The problem with showdown is weapons and pickups don't re-spawn, it destroys something basic about arena shooters.
        Also the team mission is just kill the enemies team, what if it ends 1vs1 one with flak the other with sniper?

        Why would the guy with flak cannon try chase the sniper in open areas?
        Why would the guy with sniper try go fight in close range?

        Item re-spawn should be allowed and make one team mission "survive" the other "chase" (round time should be tested with this)

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Edit: Make one team survive or kill to win the round, the other team kill to win the round.
        Play 2 halves swaping objectives.
        Last edited by VeroUE; 06-17-2016, 07:32 PM. Reason: Make it more clear

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          After debating on this for a bit I want to see if I can confirm my suspicion that this game mode really needs maps design specifically for this game mode for it to work correctly. I am going to see about putting together a blockmesh today.

          My feelings are that both Stolid and VeroUE are correct on their points. And that if what you do based on predicting what your opponent will do is not interesting then the game mode will have too many problems. I feel like every spawn point needs to have at least 2 viable options for weapons and every weapon needs to have at least 2 viable options for armor and health. If this mode can become a game of predicting your opponents moves by guessing what directions they will go after spawning then the mode will be much more interesting.
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            Also if you have 200HP at start it destroy the balance of the weapons.
            Primary of shock-rifle is useless for example, but I understand if you stick with 100hp secondary of shock is overpower since it can 1 combo kill you.
            Rocket spam can 1 shot you with 100HP.

            Edit: All this because no item re-spawn and you can't collect items.
            Last edited by VeroUE; 06-21-2016, 10:37 AM.

            Comment


              Just wanted to add my feedback on Showdown here as well:

              I've been playing Showdown games almost exclusively the past few weeks on Epic Hubs only. A few issues I noticed-
              1. Bots spam Enforcer too much, and without line of sight.
              2. There is some weirdness with the spawns where sometimes you will be facing the wrong direction or have a delay before you can move...what is this? The start is very important in Showdown.
              3. Most of the maps don't work for 3v3 I feel. Not enough weapons or pickups to go around and therefore some boring rounds for players depending on their spawn choice. Chill should be 2v2, Underland is borderline 2v2/1v1, and even Sand and Solo I feel should be 2v2. Only Deck, Temple and Spacer seem to work well with 3v3 in my experience.
              4. Spawns are bad. Because of (3.) mainly, you can see how on Underland especially, players are forced to fight for a weapon right off the bat. Not good for gameplay.
              5. I don't like the end condition of decaying health in overtime. It's anticlimactic imo. I would rather see a powerup such as beserk or redeemer spawn during overtime.
              6. Also don't like the "berserk/amp" powerup that is currently default. I'd rather one of the traditional strong powerups in a fixed location. This could spawn more than once during each round, or periodically.

              Some things I really like so far-
              a. I like the pacing. It is similar to counterstrike in that it lets you talk/type between rounds to strategize/socialize. It gives you time to think about your plan of action, and because of this paying attention to the spawn selection is crucial for good planning.
              b. The DM maps work pretty well for showdown but I think SD specific maps would be amazing for the gametype.
              c. I agree with others above that have said they really like this mode's competitive potential (along with Elimination too). I think the mode makes for good watching and seems fun to play at a competitive level, for a change of pace from traditional constant-action modes.
              d. Showdown encourages teamwork as I've seen players naturally grouping up together after spawn as one may only have a pistol or 1 good weapon or item, and ammo/weapon drops are a big deal.
              e. Emphasizes the importance of tactical play. Players who put themselves in good positions to use the weapons they have do very well in Showdown.
              f. Has a tension between getting items and fragging that other modes don't. It's a constant puzzle figuring out how long you should be going for which items before going for frags and which items might still be up (drops too).
              g. Good job on the respawning ammo. This makes a big difference in making the end of rounds exciting to play/watch, and adds a small element of map control gameplay.

              In short I really hope Showdown gets some more attention from Epic and the players - all it needs is some Showdown Maps and some polish; it's really fun!

              PS I like Chimmi's idea below too
              Last edited by burawura; 06-25-2016, 09:58 PM.

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                My own personal suggestion is to tweak the spawn selection screen so that instead of each individual player having 10 seconds to choose spawns, you would:

                pair up each player randomly as #1, 2, and 3 for their team order. Each pairing can choose a spawn at the exact same time, just whoever clicks on it fast enough. The count down clock is set at something like 6 seconds, so if your spawn gets chosen too fast, you still have some time to plan out. It creates a mad scramble to plan out spawns and its more engaging than the boring spawn selection we have now.
                ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
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                  I might be late to the party, but here's what I think:

                  Yes, it certainly adds and enforces that tactical level to UT. Yes, it can become THE competitive game mode. Yes, the downtime does make this gamemode more boring, BUT only because I am not worrying about my rank or anything like that. The preparation phases in a game like Overwatch is needed especially in competitive play, because it feels more high stakes. Winning or losing matters to you there. However, once the preparation phase is over, there's no downtime until the round ends!

                  I don't really feel the need to talk about balancing (aside from 200 starting HP being obviously too much), because weapon balance is also being disregarded anyways, so there's no point.

                  Personally I am more concerned about whether we really should pushing this kind of game mode as competitive, when there's so many more interesting ones available. Best example is probably Assault, though there's CTF, domination and Warfare/ONS too. It's easier to balance because you can choose what weapons to give the attackers and defenders. You always progress through the map, which makes it infinitely more interesting. It less boring too because there's no downtime in it. It feels very much like the standard game modes from Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, where you progress through the map every time you complete an objective, just on a smaller, arena scale. Why not combine Assault or Domination with Showdown? Now that would be interesting.

                  Can showdown exist in the game? Sure, why not. However, I really don't see why we should be pushing this game mode on players as competitive, when we certainly have better options to promote with the game. By now it is obvious to me that you (Epic) is intent on pushing this game mode on us, but I feel like it is the inferior choice.
                  Last edited by InVader; 07-15-2016, 10:15 AM.
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                    Originally posted by InVader View Post
                    Personally I am more concerned about whether we really should pushing this kind of game mode as competitive, when there's so many more interesting ones available. Best example is probably Assault, though there's CTF, domination and Warfare/ONS too. It's easier to balance because you can choose what weapons to give the attackers and defenders. You always progress through the map, which makes it infinitely more interesting. It less boring too because there's no downtime in it. It feels very much like the standard game modes from Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, where you progress through the map every time you complete an objective, just on a smaller, arena scale. Why not combine Assault or Domination with Showdown? Now that would be interesting.

                    Can showdown exist in the game? Sure, why not. However, I really don't see why we should be pushing this game mode on players as competitive, when we certainly have better options to promote with the game. By now it is obvious to me that you (Epic) is intent on pushing this game mode on us, but I feel like it is the inferior choice.
                    I agree with you on this. I'm sure Showdown has it's interesting aspects and is fun to play, but for me it's just not true to UT if you know what I mean. I doesn't feel like a game mode which represents what kind of game UT is. Aspects like round based gameplay, spawn selection, special items, deviating rules for item spawns and so on make it feel like UT wants to be a different game in this game mode. That's the reason why I personally don't want showdown to be pushed as the competitive game mode for UT. In my opinion it should be more like a extra game mode from the marketplace than part of the core game.

                    And I know many people say that CTF also isn't good enough to be the competitive mode. That may be true. But I still think we should go for a game mode which represents the game properly. Maybe Assault or a new version of Bombing Run is the key?
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                      My grand ideas for showdown:

                      I get showdown. I even actually like it in short bursts when I'm playing with people over teamspeak / discord. I think its kind of fun.

                      But there is the problem: It's limited to being KIND OF fun. Anybody can see that the Absolute server is filled up with 1-2 full elimination games almost every single night, yet showdown rarely played at all. The only way I was able to get my 10 ranking games was when one of the QA guys was idling in a showdown game for a while to test how easy it was to accumulate ELO points. Ask almost anybody: Showdown just kind of makes people wish they were playing elimination instead. So what can be done to make the gametype more popular to compete with braindead Elimination? I have a couple of ideas:


                      1) Utilize the Adrenaline system from UT2003/4.

                      Yes, I'm serious. I know there is already a "comeback" mechanic and a unique powerup in the form of the overcharge, but something about it just doesnt quite click with me for some reason. I think that if you introduce the Adrenaline system where players would gain Adrenaline points by killing, dying, and even picking up some pills on the ground (that would replace the health vials), it would add in an interesting mechanic that would make showdown more unique and memorable. In my opinion, it would also be a more interesting "comeback" mechanic than the overcharge since there would be so many possible uses. I'm not saying get rid of the overcharge, but it might be something to consider. I could see adrenaline being used in the following ways:

                      Dying without getting a kill would grant a player the most adrenaline points, more than killing other players and picking up the pills on the ground. A player would generally be granted enough adrenaline points per 5-round match to activate their ability once, possibly twice if they picked up enough pills. Adrenaline might be activated one of a couple ways (needs testing): a single key, or a button combination like in the 2kX series. Activation might do any of the following (or more):

                      1: Grant invisibility
                      2: Grant a speed boost (and possibly a firing rate boost as well)
                      3: grant the player max ammo for every gun they have
                      4+: anything else someone can think of

                      A possibility that I think would tie into the game quite well is that abilities might be linked to the player's chosen character model. For example, if a player plays as a Necris, they might have exclusive access to the invisibility powerup. If someone was playing as a Skaarj, they would get the speed boost. And of course if someone was a Human, they would get the ammo boost. It would give players more of a connection to their character IMO. You wouldnt want to have things tied in to characters classes that could only be bought on the marketplace because that just gives off bad vibes, so maybe the player would select their special ability at some point during the match (like a check box at a spawn selection). Additionally, speaking from experience, people EXCLUSIVELY used the "booster" powerup in UT2k3/4, so just avoid that altogether by not including it.



                      My second idea has to do with the spawn system. I know the train of thought right now is to have some time inbetween rounds so players can discuss strategies, and e-sports commentators can talk about what just happened. I get that both of those things are important. The problem is that selecting spawns is just....... boring. There's really no better way to say it. It takes too long, and the act itself is simply boring. My idea would speed that process up a little and make it more engaging: I think it MIGHT be neat if instead of one person being allowed to select their spawn at a time, instead one person PER TEAM would be allowed to select their spawn at a time!! Each team would have its players split into three levels at random: pick 1, pick 2, and pick 3. Both team's pick 1 is allowed to choose at the SAME TIME!! I can see it playing out like two players are franticly clicking on the one spawn they want at max speed, but also having to have a plan B or C ready to go. Pick level 2, and Pick level 3 would have to do the same thing. Makes it more frantic and engaging IMO, especially if each pick level had like 5 or 6 seconds to decide instead of 10 seconds (which is wayyy too long)

                      The main problem I see in this is that luck plays a huge factor in getting the best choice you want, and players might even resort to setting up turbo macros. But i still think its worth a shot, because no matter what, something has to be done with the spawn selection system.

                      So there you have it, these are ChimmiChunga's Genius Ideas For Showdown (tm) that I hope are at least considered. Out of the "hardcore" community in NA, I think Ive played more showdown than almost anyone else. I kind of like it, and I want it to be a fun attractive gametype for UT4. If Showdown were a person, it would be a skinny nerd who studies too hard and doesnt have that many friends. Elimination on the other hand is the older brother who is buff, has a good jawline, good hair, and wears tank tops to pool parties. Elimination is also a dumb idiot and I hate him for it. Let's buff up Showdown and make him more well-rounded, eh?
                      ChimmiChunga leads from the front, and DieHard UT holds the crown!!
                      Frag video featuring Rookie
                      Frag video featuring Phantaci
                      Come find people to play with in IRC! All skill levels welcome!!

                      Comment


                        the other way to speed up spawn system would be something along the lines of presets

                        so, i can choose my weapon and powerup priorities, and it autoselects, still with the same selection order as now
                        and then you get a quick 5-10 second snapshot of where you are about to spawn, then back into it

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