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    #31
    If we were to put in a capture point, I'd just have it on from the start. More intuitive, any spawn advantage is mitigated by the upcoming spawn system, and a player trying an early all or nothing capture point rush could be interesting. Still, a lot of games use it as a cheap way to disallow stalemates - I feel like we can do better, but it should be on the table.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Archer6621 View Post
      I like the sound of this, could have something like a coin-toss on who gets to pick the very first spawn (first round), and then in the second round it will be inverted, third round the other person will pick first, fourth round inverted again, and goes on like that until it's over.
      Round 1: Pick from map (only know your spawn)
      Round 2: Invert spawns (both players now have 100% spawn knowledge).

      Potential problem is both players selecting the same spawn. Random off to two nearby spawns?

      Aggressive play relies on a degree of uncertainty which is in large part facilitated by not knowing your opponent's location. This is potentially problematic when the gametype has a limited window for smart aggressive play (during item collection) after which the difficulty is increased. Knowing your opponents spawn removes element of surprise almost entirely.

      In addition some spawn mash ups - lower rocket vs upper rocket (corner near link) on ASDF for example would never be picked.. At this spawn the rocket players (probably) best move is to rocket -> lift dodge to shock, take shock. The upper spawn has less options, however this is one of few that can beat the rocket player to shock and escape. With the knowledge that the player is spawning above the low rocket spawn player can simply change the lift dodge into a hammer jump for faster movement at cost of health, deny shock then also deny flak. Obviously this is possible regardless of where the other player spawns, however it is a much more gambling move (spending health for uncertain out come) rather than 100%.

      Perhaps a better (and simpler) option would be to give players the option for the game to "pick for me randomly" rather than pick from the map. So you have the benefit of stealth but you cannot select where you start.
      Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Numb.51 View Post
        The first wave is the "resource rush" wave. In this wave, if players spawn far from each other, they will rush to first get a powerful weapon followed by the best armor in their area, or vice versa depending on what is closer. Any immediate altercation is going to more than likely be defensive. Players are rushing for resources and if they happen to see the enemy while doing so they may only throw a few shots and leave to keep on collecting.
        Originally posted by Numb.51 View Post
        The second wave is the "aggression" wave. Here is the most exciting* spectator part of the match. Both players are stacked with armor/health and their assortment of weapons.
        Nice overview in general. I disagree with where the aggression phase starts however. Once players have their pickups there is no incentive to push each other, outside of guessing stack. Aggression from a logical stand point occurs as soon as a player has a weapon. The viability of this varies between maps of course, ASDF is pretty small and possible well on but maybe solo not so much due to being more spread out.

        With the current spawn setup reading where your opponent spawned and attempting fast damage with what you have available is much more exciting (compared to your example, which is also exciting but has less riding on executing well) than waiting and has potentially bigger pay offs - killing before armor pickups, driving off armor pickups, damaging them then forcing them to spend time going for health rather than weapons early. This has further repercussions as your opponent now has no fall back point if you play between him and other health resources as the round progresses.

        Think of it like denial in duel when a player has control, except you need to deny things quickly off spawn. And you can contest anything. Having an extra weapon is a fairly big deal.

        Players have a limited window for playing aggressively using items as the main way of doing so (he is going for X, I will kill him)/reason to do so (I’m going to stop him taking it or I want it) is the initial item pick ups. Compared to regular duel there is more urgency to obtain resources since you cannot wait out the respawns for weapons you failed to get initially.

        If you play it as you would “normal” duel with armor spawning (collect items, +back to avoid being killed early, stack up for next spawns) you potentially put yourself on the back foot for the defensive phase. Having an extra weapon pickup is a fairly big deal when the game progresses to +back. If your opponent runs out of ammo before you, pressuring becomes much easier. And because of 200 health another valid option is to ignore the armors and push for more weapons.

        For example, if you spawn at lower rockets on ASDF an option other than rockets -> Armor/Belt would be rockets, hammer to shock (if they did not spawn directly above you near the shock ammo) and listen for flak or helmet pickup. Depending on their spawn you then have the option to deny flak. At no point have you been near either armors.

        The belt is significantly better than the jacket+pads, purely because (ignoring the map) it takes less time to obtain the same benefit, freeing up the belt player to do more. Also belt can deny pads.

        Sure, if you are playing for fun or just to play the aggressive phase probably occurs (as you describe it) after most pickups. Not to say that you have to play aggressively at the start, of course players can play the way you have described as well, going for pickups, then fighting. But early game is the more sensible time to execute.

        Originally posted by Mysterial View Post
        Another option that has been discussed is to change the scoring so that wins by kill are 3 points and wins by timelimit are 2 and 1, so there's more reward attached to being offensive... but I'm skeptical that would have a substantial impact
        Players knowing they have an advantage (stack or weapons) would be key for this to work. It essentially makes one player the “control point” other posters are keen to implement.

        The current setup of “highest stack wins” is asking players to read damage output exceptionally well. This is probably one of the highest level skills. Please add an indicator - perhaps update it every ~10? Or 5 seconds after last damage dealt. Or every 30 seconds. Delay to avoid it swapping back and forth and allowing players to back off as soon as they take the lead.

        Perhaps stopping healing over 100 using normal health packs would also help. Unless heavy damage is landed players tend to go to 200, to close to, twice per round. Is much more dangerous backing off to heal with sub 50 health compared to doing it at 150.

        However at the end of the day even with a "leader" indicator players have the option to wait most of the round before pushing. Is two minutes short enough for not boringness!

        Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
        Anyway, something else:if rounds ends and noone is dead, why not just respawn everything at once as the countdown reaches zero (you don't even have to "time" things)? In that case, up the score-worth of the round cumulatively. Noone got the +1 from the round? Respawn everything, and now the round is worth +2. Noone dies yet? Respawn everything, and now it's worth +3... +4... (there's a bit of a similarity with betrayal gametype here, for those who didn't notice) This whole thing would work better with 1min rounds, this way there's less down time.
        This is a nice idea, it keeps the game item driven while removing the annoying “timing” aspect duel gets hammered for. Could allow interesting setups where players try to get additional items they missed the first time round. However this would need to be combined with no normal health packs over 100. Also maybe no ammo respawns.
        Last edited by joellll; 08-09-2015, 11:23 PM.
        Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by joellll View Post
          Nice overview in general. I disagree with where the aggression phase starts however. Once players have their pickups there is no incentive to push each other, outside of guessing stack. Aggression from a logical stand point occurs as soon as a player has a weapon. The viability of this varies between maps of course, ASDF is pretty small and possible well on but maybe solo not so much due to being more spread out.

          With the current spawn setup reading where your opponent spawned and attempting fast damage with what you have available is much more exciting (compared to your example, which is also exciting but has less riding on executing well) than waiting and has potentially bigger pay offs - killing before armor pickups, driving off armor pickups, damaging them then forcing them to spend time going for health rather than weapons early. This has further repercussions as your opponent now has no fall back point if you play between him and other health resources as the round progresses.

          Think of it like denial in duel when a player has control, except you need to deny things quickly off spawn. And you can contest anything. Having an extra weapon is a fairly big deal.

          Players have a limited window for playing aggressively using items as the main way of doing so (he is going for X, I will kill him)/reason to do so (I’m going to stop him taking it or I want it) is the initial item pick ups. Compared to regular duel there is more urgency to obtain resources since you cannot wait out the respawns for weapons you failed to get initially.

          If you play it as you would “normal” duel with armor spawning (collect items, +back to avoid being killed early, stack up for next spawns) you potentially put yourself on the back foot for the defensive phase. Having an extra weapon pickup is a fairly big deal when the game progresses to +back. If your opponent runs out of ammo before you, pressuring becomes much easier. And because of 200 health another valid option is to ignore the armors and push for more weapons.

          For example, if you spawn at lower rockets on ASDF an option other than rockets -> Armor/Belt would be rockets, hammer to shock (if they did not spawn directly above you near the shock ammo) and listen for flak or helmet pickup. Depending on their spawn you then have the option to deny flak. At no point have you been near either armors.

          The belt is significantly better than the jacket+pads, purely because (ignoring the map) it takes less time to obtain the same benefit, freeing up the belt player to do more. Also belt can deny pads.

          Sure, if you are playing for fun or just to play the aggressive phase probably occurs (as you describe it) after most pickups. Not to say that you have to play aggressively at the start, of course players can play the way you have described as well, going for pickups, then fighting. But early game is the more sensible time to execute.



          Players knowing they have an advantage (stack or weapons) would be key for this to work. It essentially makes one player the “control point” other posters are keen to implement.

          The current setup of “highest stack wins” is asking players to read damage output exceptionally well. This is probably one of the highest level skills. Please add an indicator - perhaps update it every ~10? Or 5 seconds after last damage dealt. Or every 30 seconds. Delay to avoid it swapping back and forth and allowing players to back off as soon as they take the lead.

          Perhaps stopping healing over 100 using normal health packs would also help. Unless heavy damage is landed players tend to go to 200, to close to, twice per round. Is much more dangerous backing off to heal with sub 50 health compared to doing it at 150.

          However at the end of the day even with a "leader" indicator players have the option to wait most of the round before pushing. Is two minutes short enough for not boringness!



          This is a nice idea, it keeps the game item driven while removing the annoying “timing” aspect duel gets hammered for. Could allow interesting setups where players try to get additional items they missed the first time round. However this would need to be combined with no normal health packs over 100. Also maybe no ammo respawns.
          Yeah i was just describing the way my friend and i happened to play. There were definitely times where the second we spawned we started to fight each other and quite a few times someone died before even getting any armor. The thing is that it was relatively rare.

          Comment


            #35
            I don't think having the "in control player" act as a control point really works. If someone has a heavy stack for some reason, there is very little chance they are going to lose unless the game is really unbalanced. Again, how does this scale above 1v1? I'd hate to think the design of Showdown will be pigeonholed by what might work in terms of Duel.
            HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
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              #36
              Didn't read the entirety of the thread, but most of the posts.

              Some things, that I would like to see some experimentation taking place (from a design standpoint), would be:

              1) Converting this to a tourney/hotseat/king-of-the-hill mode:
              Winner of the round gets to stay and play next round. Loser goes into spectate mode and the next player in queue joins the fray. This would also give an opportunity to the losers to further construct strategies upon observing their opponent's patterns.
              Eventually when somebody meets the scoring requirements, he/she would be declared as the winner.

              2) Since part of the strategy is picking a predetermined player start, it would be a good idea capitalizing in the positional advantages/disadvantages/tradeoffs by making all sorts of pickups be of a one-time-usage nature. Players in turn will think carefully about their route and the arsenal they want to secure, before engaging, and it will also provide for additional depth/strategy in regards to ammo management. This will also help mitigate defensive/turtle play alot.
              Last edited by FrostbyteGR; 08-10-2015, 02:54 AM.
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                #37
                Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                I don't think having the "in control player" act as a control point really works. If someone has a heavy stack for some reason, there is very little chance they are going to lose unless the game is really unbalanced. Again, how does this scale above 1v1? I'd hate to think the design of Showdown will be pigeonholed by what might work in terms of Duel.
                The player as the control point is how it currently works - I am asking for it to be messaged so one player knows they need to address it. The biggest pr

                Also heavy stack? I get belt, I have 350. You get jacket and pads and you have.. the same. If you screw up initial pickups then that is an aspect of the game to work on if you consider armor/stack important a fairly non-mechanical, A-B-C type aspect that is easy to improve and will become even easier once the spawn map is live. Perhaps you would rather prioirtise an extra weapon over your opponent and forgo armor. Perhaps you take large damage due to an early conflict during pickups and you are on the back foot - which is not the fault of the gametype.

                Regardless of this if there is a control point, flag, node, stick, permanent udamage pickup.. the player with the "huge stack" will have the advantage anyway. Realistically theres little reason for one player to have a "huge stack" like in traditional duel. Both players will have something if they choose to. But maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean..

                Teams on the current four maps would work fine, simply because they are so small - they would arguably work better than 1v1 since winning condition can be team with most alive ahead of health. CA/team RA always worked acceptably and SD (first) has much better drivers early in the game to get players killing each other, which is liable to happen even more when you put 8 players on the current small maps. CA at the high level is fairly blah (see qcon 2013), but the start isn't SD which really needs to be played - it probably creates enough instability to stop what happens in CA for teams, just not so much for duel. Better starts could yield better late game outcomes. Scoring +1teampoint per kill rather than +1point per round?

                Request - please add drop ammo when teams are implemented.

                Originally posted by FrostbyteGR View Post
                1) Converting this to a tourney/hotseat/king-of-the-hill mode:
                Yes please
                Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

                Comment


                  #38
                  Great feedback guys!

                  I'm not a huge fan of adding (IMO) contrived complexity and forced conflict resolution like control points and such (at least not for a good while to let the meta form and mutate a bit first). I do agree that there needs to be something to motivate players to not turtle as much - I really want to try adding 2d fighter style health bars at the top of the HUD that show you the whole stack of both players at all times and see how that works out. There's some implied additional information going along with a change like that (i.e. you know when your opponent picked up belt vs armor etc and therefore it gives away their location immediately) but I think that could actually benefit the dynamic of the gametype (potential team variants included).

                  I'd again encourage everyone to try Tuba more (if you haven't already) to see how and it plays differently from the others, why that is, and how that might be a good thing (or not). There's a natural connection that's easily made with (mostly) symmetrical arena style RA maps when thinking about this gametype, but I think that would be the easy (and less interesting) way out. It's great that Showdown will just work with any and all DM maps naturally, but that doesn't mean we can't try designing DM maps that will still work well in all the other gametypes but specifically cater more to Showdown as a whole. Also again doesn't mean having variety in style and pacing would be a bad thing.

                  If you have the time I'd also like to encourage people to just go ahead and experiment with playing custom showdown matches and trying all different styles of maps currently not in the default rotation.


                  Here's why I think Tuba makes for an interesting variety of a Showdown map so far:

                  • More Diorama Than Arena
                    • Makes it easier to spectate a match and do interesting camera work
                      • Therefore replays are also more easily parsed/watched

                    • Iconic locations with interesting traversal options to and away from them are more interesting to watch
                    • Makes powerup and armor placement more interesting/dynamic/well telegraphed for above reasons
                    • Has the potential for a lot more charm and intrigue in general compared to more generic corridor/atrium maps
                      • I.e. Dioramas usually tell a story of sorts
                      • In this case besides the story of the environment itself there is the story of the players engaging and the paths they choose to take



                  • Powerup/Armor placement
                    • Everything either has very long travel telegraphs or is visible from a variety of spots
                      • I.e. boots out in water
                        • boots being pretty powerful in this map and allowing you faster access to all the other bigger pickups

                      • Armor in big tower

                    • Udamage isn't a direct spawn pickup
                      • Takes either 2 charges of boots or lots of travel and one boot charge or weapon self damage to reach
                      • You most likely don't want to pick it up straight away either unless you already have shock

                    • There's only one armor pickup (chest)
                      • This wouldn't work well if it only had a belt since that (IMO) only works when there is a counter option (at least another chest)
                      • It only being chest armor makes it an actul interesting choice but not an obligation (i.e. boots or armor, 99% of the time not both)

                    • A lot of pickups in general have an iconic location
                      • shock/sniper/udamage tower
                      • Armor tower
                      • Boots island
                      • Rocket podium
                      • Bio cave
                      • Flak rock



                  • Easy to understand but still has room for mastery
                    • I.e. the map is dead simple and easy to read and learn
                    • Still allows for interesting picks and fights
                    • Is therefore again easier to watch etc



                  Anyhow, more or less just a quick brain dump - I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Clawfist View Post
                    More Diorama Than Arena
                    • Iconic locations with interesting traversal options to and away from them are more interesting to watch
                    • Makes powerup and armor placement more interesting/dynamic/well telegraphed for above reasons
                    • Has the potential for a lot more charm and intrigue in general compared to more generic corridor/atrium maps
                      • I.e. Dioramas usually tell a story of sorts
                      • In this case besides the story of the environment itself there is the story of the players engaging and the paths they choose to take
                    Sorry for a bit of offtopic, but this is spot on description of the maps that made UT famous. Arena maps are needed, but we need more Diorama-maps like that.
                    "Yeah. _Lynx can fire the lightning gun, have the lightning bolt turn a 90 degree corner, stop and ask the closest teammate for directions, confuse the directions and get lost, realize it went the wrong way, make a U-Turn, and get a headshot on the intended target."
                    - RenegadeRetard

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by joellll View Post
                      Also heavy stack? I get belt, I have 350. You get jacket and pads and you have.. the same. If you screw up initial pickups then that is an aspect of the game to work on if you consider armor/stack important a fairly non-mechanical, A-B-C type aspect that is easy to improve and will become even easier once the spawn map is live. Perhaps you would rather prioirtise an extra weapon over your opponent and forgo armor. Perhaps you take large damage due to an early conflict during pickups and you are on the back foot - which is not the fault of the gametype.
                      That's true, but someone with 350 stack including belt is WAY more stacked than someone with jacket and pads. And if someone managed to deny you access to keg/armor (which maybe they should be rewarded for, maybe not) the game is already over before it begins.
                      Regardless of this if there is a control point, flag, node, stick, permanent udamage pickup.. the player with the "huge stack" will have the advantage anyway. Realistically theres little reason for one player to have a "huge stack" like in traditional duel. Both players will have something if they choose to. But maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean..
                      It's possible but adding t would force the round to a resolution. I guess that's my target there. Currently there is nothing forcing an engagement. If there was a permanent UDamage pickup, for example, when it came up both players would have to go for it. The heavily stacked player couldn't ignore it because it would give too much of a tactical advantage back to the out of control player if they were to pick it up. I mean, I guess they could ignore it if they wanted but it would be unwise the vast majority of the time.
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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                        That's true, but someone with 350 stack including belt is WAY more stacked than someone with jacket and pads.
                        Why? Sounds the same to me, except the player without belt can benefit from grabbing health packs, does not shine to be so easy to spot, and does not stop shinning so the other player knows when he's dealt a good amount of damage, in which case, Vest + Pads are actually better unless you're sacrificing weapons to acquire them. Most of the time in in Showdown, any weapon other than Bio is better than Pads. And Flak + Rockets + Shock/Sniper or Shock + Sniper + Flak/Rocket is better than all the armor on the map.

                        Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                        It's possible but adding t would force the round to a resolution. I guess that's my target there. Currently there is nothing forcing an engagement. If there was a permanent UDamage pickup, for example, when it came up both players would have to go for it. The heavily stacked player couldn't ignore it because it would give too much of a tactical advantage back to the out of control player if they were to pick it up. I mean, I guess they could ignore it if they wanted but it would be unwise the vast majority of the time.
                        What I don't really see is how it's much different than just giving the stacked player the round win already.
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                          #42
                          Originally posted by luauDesign View Post
                          Why? Sounds the same to me, except the player without belt can benefit from grabbing health packs, does not shine to be so easy to spot, and does not stop shinning so the other player knows when he's dealt a good amount of damage, in which case, Vest + Pads are actually better unless you're sacrificing weapons to acquire them. Most of the time in in Showdown, any weapon other than Bio is better than Pads. And Flak + Rockets + Shock/Sniper or Shock + Sniper + Flak/Rocket is better than all the armor on the map.
                          Flatly put, belt gives you 100% protection while vest/pads only give you 75%. Belt is literally extra health and a big advantage especially if you took some hits earlier on.
                          What I don't really see is how it's much different than just giving the stacked player the round win already.
                          Forcing aggressive play or at least encouraging fighting makes the game more interesting to watch and, ultimately, play.
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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                            Flatly put, belt gives you 100% protection while vest/pads only give you 75%. Belt is literally extra health and a big advantage especially if you took some hits earlier on.
                            With 200 starting health you run out of armor first even if you don't pick up extra health. That's one of the reasons I like it instead of just starting everyone with armor.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Yeah it's better the way it is now.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                                Flatly put, belt gives you 100% protection while vest/pads only give you 75%. Belt is literally extra health and a big advantage especially if you took some hits earlier on.
                                Meaning that if you have at least 67 health (fixed because I got updated in how much protection armor gives now), Vest is essentially 100 Health, and with 100 health, Vest+Pads are 150 Health. Same as Belt, except it doesn't make you shiny, you can benefit from Health Packs, and it doesn't give away that you've taken a lot of damage when you stop shinning.

                                Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                                Forcing aggressive play or at least encouraging fighting makes the game more interesting to watch and, ultimately, play.
                                I wouldn't say "encouraging" is the right word when we're talking about putting a player with 70 health to attack while a player with 260 stack defends. There's only one end to that. Might as well call the round ended. Now, if the stacked player has to attack, the weak player might have a chance.
                                Last edited by luauDesign; 08-10-2015, 11:02 PM.
                                DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

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