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    #46
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    That's true, but someone with 350 stack including belt is WAY more stacked than someone with jacket and pads. And if someone managed to deny you access to keg/armor (which maybe they should be rewarded for, maybe not) the game is already over before it begins.
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    Flatly put, belt gives you 100% protection while vest/pads only give you 75%. Belt is literally extra health and a big advantage especially if you took some hits earlier on.
    200 health + 150 belt = 200 health + 100 jacket + 50 pads

    They offer the same effective health. 350. Stop confusing people - perhaps this is why there are threads about the "belt being too powerful". Neither player is WAY more stacked.

    There are differences but for showdown they are fairly minimal and belt could be considered to have downsides. Since you are inventing DM maps with keg I'll finish up here by pointing out maps could have two belts or two jackets. Or 15 belts. You know, just sayin'.

    Or do we want to play "the subtle differences between belt and jacket/pads in sd"? It is really not that interesting and its not what you meant.

    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    It's possible but adding t would force the round to a resolution. I guess that's my target there. Currently there is nothing forcing an engagement. If there was a permanent UDamage pickup, for example, when it came up both players would have to go for it. The heavily stacked player couldn't ignore it because it would give too much of a tactical advantage back to the out of control player if they were to pick it up. I mean, I guess they could ignore it if they wanted but it would be unwise the vast majority of the time.
    One player winning at full time due to stack forces an engagement, however for the majority of players it needs to be displayed somehow. The metric that needs tweaking with this setup is round time. There is generally too much time between end of pickups and end of round. Players tend to faff around until as late as possible to push for the kill, shortening the round might alleviate that somewhat, or somehow tying end of round to last major pickup.

    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    Forcing aggressive play or at least encouraging fighting makes the game more interesting to watch and, ultimately, play.
    Let me quote what I replied to.

    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    I don't think having the "in control player" act as a control point really works. If someone has a heavy stack for some reason, there is very little chance they are going to lose unless the game is really unbalanced.
    Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
    I guess that's my target there.
    I don't know how you could expect anyone to make that leap. In fact if the round is unbalanced there is going to be a resolution relatively quickly?

    Again there is no requirement for a player to be heavily stacked, what you choose to pickup is your prerogative. You need to play it - if someone is spending their time getting belt, jacket, pads on asdf they will not have many weapons. 200 base health heavily changes what is important. Stack wise with current spawn system asdf/solo are fairly balanced, deck can be lop sided (not sure if amp evens it out really) and tuba only has the jacket, making it the most "unbalanced" map (from the stack perspective you have) currently.

    In case you missed it the first time. 200 health + 150 belt = 200 health + 100 jacket + 50 pads. They offer the same effective health. 350.
    Last edited by joellll; 08-10-2015, 06:58 PM.
    Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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      #47
      Originally posted by joellll View Post
      In case you missed it the first time. 200 health + 150 belt = 200 health + 100 jacket + 50 pads. They offer the same effective health. 350.
      Yes, effective health is the same in both cases. The part that can be confusing is with shield being 100% absorption and chest + pads only being 75%, at first glance it looks like shield has an advantage with health being the tie breaker if neither player dies since he'll lose less health.

      However, that's not taking health pickups into account. Since the chest+pads player can bring his health stack back up by picking up vials as soon as he takes any damage, that's an advantage for him. If he gets his health back up to 200, health will be the same again but he'll have more armor left than the guy with the shield.

      Regular health pickups don't matter until you're under 100 health, at which point neither player will have any armor/shield left other than in very highly unlikely circumstances.
      Last edited by MoxNix; 08-10-2015, 07:40 PM.

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        #48
        Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
        Regular health pickups don't matter until you're under 100 health
        Most of your post is why it is interesting but not "shield has WAY more stack" like briz stated..

        You can heal to 200 with regular health pickups currently.

        Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
        If he gets his health back up to 200, health will be the same again but he'll have more armor left than the guy with the shield.
        Edit; What. You mean with vials?
        Last edited by joellll; 08-10-2015, 09:08 PM.
        Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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          #49
          Originally posted by joellll View Post
          Most of your post is why it is interesting but not "shield has WAY more stack" like briz stated..

          You can heal to 200 with regular health pickups currently.

          Edit; What. You mean with vials?
          I never said it was way more stack. Just pointing out that 100% vs 75% damage absorption really isn't an advantage, especially not with 200 health.

          I didn't realize you could heal over 100 with regular health packs in showdown. That makes armor even better probably enough to sway the overall EH stack advantage to armor over shield.

          I actually thought showdown sounded interesting at first. But that was before I heard about the 200 starting health and round time limit with health based tie breaker if time expires without a winner. Might as well call it hide and seek. With rules like that showdown is going to wind up being even more biased towards defence than duel is.

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            #50
            Originally posted by joellll View Post
            200 health + 150 belt = 200 health + 100 jacket + 50 pads

            They offer the same effective health. 350. Stop confusing people - perhaps this is why there are threads about the "belt being too powerful". Neither player is WAY more stacked.

            There are differences but for showdown they are fairly minimal and belt could be considered to have downsides. Since you are inventing DM maps with keg I'll finish up here by pointing out maps could have two belts or two jackets. Or 15 belts. You know, just sayin'.

            Or do we want to play "the subtle differences between belt and jacket/pads in sd"? It is really not that interesting and its not what you meant.
            It makes a difference whether you feel like seeing it or not. It's not 350 "effective health" (as if that is a thing). Two players in the situation you described, all other things being equal, the Belt player would have a distinct advantage coming out of a scrap with essentially 40 more health than the other player. Assuming weapons were balanced better, that could add up to a pretty huge advantage. It is nice that armor is less of a factor than it normally is, but the difference between Belt and Armor does still exist and matter.

            BTW, I'm not "inventing" DM maps with keg. Outpost has a keg and there are historically plenty of DM maps with keg on them. Hopefully you meant Duel, but I'm not really constraining my thinking to Duel here.
            One player winning at full time due to stack forces an engagement, however for the majority of players it needs to be displayed somehow. The metric that needs tweaking with this setup is round time. There is generally too much time between end of pickups and end of round. Players tend to faff around until as late as possible to push for the kill, shortening the round might alleviate that somewhat, or somehow tying end of round to last major pickup.
            It doesn't force a real engagement, though. Even with shorter round times and whatever other fixes you can dream up the main problem is there is no reason for the OOCP to encroach on the ICPs territory for the length of the map. They are better off watching for small openings and taking pot shots especially if they somehow ended up without any armor by that point (which I have indeed seen). Plenty of the games I've watched have turned out that way with varying degrees of success for the OOCP.

            Something like a powerup that has an actual chance of turning the tide of the match forces the player's hands. It's either going to make the ICP so advantaged that he will easily win, or it could but the OOCP into a position where they don't feel like they have to hang back. I don't think that would be a mistake and it would undoubtedly create much more interesting gameplay scenarios than the current average game that tends to play out like:

            1) Rush the Belt
            2) Rush the other armor
            3) Rush the Flak/Rockets/Shock
            4) Avoid each other until all the pickups are gone
            5) ICP avoids all contact with OOCP as long as possible
            6) OOCP hangs back and spams corners/takes long range shots at ICP until time runs down
            7) Occasionally OOCP rushes ICP and dies

            It deviates from this occasionally when someone decides to rush the weapons or ignores the belt but at least half of the 25 or so Showdown matches I've watched have played out almost exactly like this. It's more fun to watch than Duel but it still gets quite boring and #7 rarely helps make it more exciting.
            Again there is no requirement for a player to be heavily stacked, what you choose to pickup is your prerogative. You need to play it - if someone is spending their time getting belt, jacket, pads on asdf they will not have many weapons. 200 base health heavily changes what is important. Stack wise with current spawn system asdf/solo are fairly balanced, deck can be lop sided (not sure if amp evens it out really) and tuba only has the jacket, making it the most "unbalanced" map (from the stack perspective you have) currently.
            Stack isn't the only thing that matters, however it is probably the biggest deciding factor in the match (in addition to what weapons you are able to get but as long as you get one of the four best weapons you don't have to worry currently). FWIW I don't think amp makes much of a difference on Deck currently because it's difficult to fight over it where it is and it runs out so you don't gain much by getting it when the other player is just going to turtle up until it's gone.

            There is more nuance to many Showdown matches but if you, on ASDF for example, get Belt and Shock or Flak against someone relatively equally matched to you, the game is pretty much over for more than one reason. I've seen that a few times.
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              #51
              Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
              It makes a difference whether you feel like seeing it or not. It's not 350 "effective health" (as if that is a thing). Two players in the situation you described, all other things being equal, the Belt player would have a distinct advantage coming out of a scrap with essentially 40 more health than the other player.
              What.

              I need more characters.
              Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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                #52
                I don't get why they put a time limit on rounds, give players 200 starting health or overhealing on 25 health packs.

                Why not just have a 10 or 15 minute time limit on the game, 100 starting health, normal health packs and have rounds last until someone gets fragged?

                IMO it'd be a whole lot more interesting that way.
                Last edited by MoxNix; 08-10-2015, 10:20 PM.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by joellll View Post
                  What.
                  Well I feel kind of dumb now thinking that Belt stacked up to 200 for some reason again... sorry. For those of you watching at home the calculations would be (assuming 200 damage taken, 200 is the maximum absorption of vest/pads):

                  100 - (200 - MIN(150, 200*0.75)) = 50 health for vest/pads

                  100 - (200 - MIN(150, 200*1.00)) = 50 health for Belt

                  At 150 damage you can spot the difference but ultimately it won't matter unless you have less than 50 health:

                  100 - (150 - MIN(150, 150*0.75)) = 63 health for vest/pads

                  100 - (150 - MIN(150, 150*1.00)) = 100 health for Belt

                  So the real differences apply only when health drops low. So presuming there was a scuffle that left both players with 50 health before the belt/vest+pads were grabbed, the Belt would offer more protection.

                  Given this, why even have the difference in absorption rates? In regular gametypes it reinforces the value of the Belt but it seems contrived But I do understand Matt's point above better at least
                  Last edited by Sir_Brizz; 08-10-2015, 11:09 PM.
                  HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
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                    #54
                    Turns out armor protection is now 60% and not 75%, that means each 5dmg taken takes 3a and 2h. In other words, 2/3 of health lost for the amount of armor lost, or 150% armor lost for the amount of health lost. In absolutes: 33.333h lost for each 50a lost. That's 66.666h for Vest, and 100h for Vest + Pads.
                    Last edited by luauDesign; 08-10-2015, 11:19 PM.
                    DM-1on1-Deck8 | DM-1on1-BirdCage | DM-Complexo (GoldenEye Redesign) | DM-ShootThemMalcomsGood | DM-1on1-Toxicity

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
                      Well I feel kind of dumb now thinking that Belt stacked up to 200 for some reason again... For those of you watching at home the calculations would be (assuming 200 damage taken):

                      100 - (200 - (150 - MIN(150, 200*0.75)) = 50 for vest/pads

                      100 - (200 - (150 - MIN(150, 200*1)) = 50 for Belt

                      So the real differences apply only when health drops low. So presuming there was a scuffle that left both players with 50 health before the belt/vest+pads were grabbed, the Belt would offer more protection.
                      The belt is overpowered. .

                      Also its 60%, but with 200 health it does not matter. It could be ~40% and stacks would still be the same @ 200health when one player has belt and the other has jacket/pads. At the end of the day if you have enough health to use all the armor you know your exact health amount by.. adding the two values together. Rocket surgery right there.

                      and because I spent the time doing this to explain visually while you worked it out on your own (good boy). Imaginary 50 damage weapon.



                      As for the whole.. conflict thing. The bomb in CS makes the teams fight. They could both sit in their spawns but they don't. If your team is down one cap in CTF you don't sit in your base and never try to cap? Noone is going to +back if they are going to loose, at some point they have to try something. Not fully understanding why the same does not apply here but thats cool.
                      Last edited by joellll; 08-10-2015, 11:32 PM.
                      Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by joellll View Post
                        As for the whole.. conflict thing. The bomb in CS makes the teams fight. They could both sit in their spawns but they don't. If your team is down one cap in CTF you don't sit in your base and never try to cap? Noone is going to +back if they are going to loose, at some point they have to try something. Not fully understanding why the same does not apply here but thats cool.
                        The thing in CS is, however, that one side will always give up a round if both teams were locked in inaction. Since you have the additional asymmetrical win condition outside of kills there is automatically a drive there, if you don't attempt to do xyz you lose. Plus in a regular match you get the added bonus of attack/defense dynamics shifting on the fly for both teams which is nice.

                        I wonder if that could be interesting in a non team scenario at all, where both players enter each round with a predetermined role or attribute that determines a secondary win condition at some point in the round (or to begin with). Just as a spit balling exercise - One obvious selector for that condition could be whoever gets last pick at spawns for the current round (the "underdog"..). You could take that and say, on top of the 60s round limit, the underdog has to collect U N R E A L (letters which are spawned randomly on say weapon bases that only the underdog can pick up) and if the round ends without a kill whether or not he has all letters determines if he wins or loses the round.


                        Since you guys keep arguing about armor values and overall defensiveness - at the risk of repeating myself repeatedly - I still feel like map style is missing a bit from the currently ongoing discussion. I.e. defensiveness is not nearly as much of an issue on Tuba vs Solo. Same with armor stack(s) - yes one person might get a 100 armor bump, but they had to give up something else that's powerful in return. Hence the actually interesting part of spawn choice and run plan at the beginning of a round vs endless circling in an emptied out Solo which allows plenty of avoidance one the map is void of resources and there are no more locational motivators besides evasion.

                        I don't even.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by joellll View Post
                          Not fully understanding why the same does not apply here but thats cool.
                          It does apply here in the last 30 seconds of the game maybe. But there is no incentive to try anything until the game is almost over and you haven't made enough progress. Unless you can match up to them based on your weapons/stack you don't gain anything by forcing a fight and that is exactly what you see in Showdown right now.
                          HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
                          BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

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                            #58
                            Something as simple as respawning the health packs on the normal timer, or even a slightly extended one, would promote a surprising amount of aggression.
                            Originally posted by Mysterial
                            An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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                              #59
                              Wait... The OP says vials and keg can heal to 299... Is that right? 299 max health instead of 199?

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by MoxNix View Post
                                Wait... The OP says vials and keg can heal to 299... Is that right? 299 max health instead of 199?
                                Since none of the maps have enough vials to get to 299 its hard to say but they raise you above 200 currently. +25s only heal to 200.
                                Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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