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A variation of CTF I dont think has been done in UT yet.

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    A variation of CTF I dont think has been done in UT yet.

    On Reddit last night I ended up getting into a spat with someone over what he claimed to be lackluster game modes in Overwatch. Which caught my attention because as far as I know king of the hill and payload are widely accepted to be the best modes for fortress game play. WHich is especially interesting to me because I do have a fortress mode in the works for UT4.

    So I started asking him if he knows something that would be better and sadly the most I could get out of him is that Tribes had really good CTF. Then after than it was ad hominem. Normally I blow **** like this off but it did get me thinking. What if there is a chance he is right? What if there is a grain of truth to this?

    It kind of makes me mad because he resorted to telling me to learn about first person shooters rather than actually explain his point.

    Anyway, I never really played much Tribes and never really felt like it was something I would enjoy. The best I was able to do last night was open the wiki and start reading up on it.

    So the main difference I was able to see is that Tribes CTF has a secondary objective that also has to be defended or it will make the flag super vulnerable to capture.

    Which lead me down more paths of thought. My least favorite thing about capture the flag is when you get a stalemate where both teams have to hide in their bases holding the enemy flag. So its possible a power generator would be a good way to deal with that.

    But what if the only way to capture the flag is to have a king of the hill mode take place in the center of the map. Forcing both teams to have to fight it out and contest a center point in order to score a point?

    So not much is solidified but I have a funny feeling there is something of value to be gleaned here.
    - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
    YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
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    #2
    First I'll quickly explain the difference beetwen Tribes CTF and a regular CTF (I played a little of Tribes, especially Tribes : Ascend). Just to give what, as a gamer, I can feel about it.

    The main objective to win remain the same as any other CTF, to just capture a certain number of flag. But you can just come around, take it, and get away with just a bunch of people to outplay/outsmart, there's actually a base which generally consist of :
    -One generator, which power up all the other structures of your base. It's really important to protect it as it means that your base will completely shut down if destroyed and render you extremely vulnerable. In general it is hidden at the heart of your camp.
    -Two or three turrets. Big mothafaking turret that shoots powerfull plasma ball (one directh it can easily one shot most characters). They have a limited range however and can be easily taken out from a long distance, since they are in the open.
    -One radar. It's always good to have an idea where the enemies come from, especially in a game with enormous speed like Tribes. It detects and show both on your radar and on your HUD where the enemies are (if they're in range ofc). It's generally placed on high place, like towers.
    -One or multiple vehicle platforms. You where able to use different vehicles (depending of the game), which of course can really help out, wether to get the flag even quicker or just shell the enemies in their base.
    -Multiple loadout platforms. There's only two ways you can switch class in Tribes, to die, or to go at a station. So of course if destroyed that means your team will have a harder time to adapt to counter opponents.

    This are the main structures, but depending of the game and/or map there was also some variation (like shields).

    You should also take into account that Tribes have a singular movement system, using jetpacks and sliding to move at an exceptional speed. This meant that a flag could potentially be captured at a glance and in a few seconds.
    And of course that it's class based with Light/Medium/Heavy and an access to different weapons/perks/abilities depending of the class chosen. Which made it a fast shooter in the idea of quick movement (although only if able to understand it correctly) with some tactical opportunity (with the bases).

    But it comes at a cost. It's far from easy to understand these mechanics, especially the jetpack/slide combo, and with that the capacity to aim correctly (most weapons were projectiles, you have to lead). Combining that with the idea that you also have a base to manage, but yet isn't the primary goal (it's still a CTF, but sometimes you might forget it ) make a game with a lot of depth indeed, but not something anybody will immediatly pick up or be interested to learn about. Imagine the frustration you can have when you start the game, playing like one of your regular shooter, you just discover you have a jetpack and then BOOM ! someone just passed right next to you at 120 km/h and one shotted you. Frustrating indeed.

    Are players today ready to re-learn and re-try such games ? I'm not certain. There will always be some hardcore fan that want to see complex shooters to exist and be the master race, but looking at what is played and succesfull today and how the gaming industry has changed, I'm not sure the majority would appreciate such gameplay.
    Now note I'm in no way an expert in these domains so I could be wrong.

    Sorry for so much rambling, wasn't expecting to turn it out like this. But at least it makes us think.

    So yeah all of this to say that you can't really satisfy everybody as we all have different taste. Some love Payload, or point capture, or *place any game mode you want*, others not.

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      #3
      Man, none of that stuff sounds anything like it would be even slightly fun for a fortress style game like TF2 or Overwatch. :/

      You don't have to apologize this was exactly the response I needed to explore the idea some more.

      I have a feeling that a variation of CTF might be possible though hmm
      - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
      YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
      Steemit: https://steemit.com/@thecastle
      Twitter: @zZCastleZz

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        #4
        Well, you can try a base based mode, but don't try too much to take tribes as an exemple or model, simply because it had mechanics and a gameplay that was really unique to any other shooter. So the game was balanced accordingly to these movements.

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          #5
          Has any attempted a mode where you capture a flag by contesting a control point at the center of the map? That combined with resetting the match after every capture might be an interesting twist.
          - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
          YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
          Steemit: https://steemit.com/@thecastle
          Twitter: @zZCastleZz

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            #6
            Heh... With a description so short, I would say TF2 ? With the Special Delivery mode (the doomsday map with a big spaceship).

            Or do you have something else in mind ?

            Comment


              #7
              Seems like the simplest form of this would be to make it so you can capture without your flag being home.
              Having a capture point separate from the flag is something that actually dates back to Team Fortress Classic (TFC) or perhaps Quake Fortress, though putting it in the middle of the map could make flag running very easy.

              Originally posted by Castle View Post
              Man, none of that stuff sounds anything like it would be even slightly fun for a fortress style game like TF2 or Overwatch. :/
              !
              Tribes (or, at least, Tribes: Ascend) is a literal fortress game mode with flags. Tribes is built around making it impossible to for flag runners to capture flags (ergo, the "Fortress"), forcing the rest of the team to work together to break through or disrupt while at the same time keeping their own base fortified. Without the engineer class and CTF_2fort, TF2 would not have any claim to the word "fortress" at all.

              Comment


                #8
                tribes, and tribes CTF was great. however, the skill ceiling to play it was around about as high as UT
                so not noob friendly at all

                one thing not mentioned in here, is that in tribes CTF, you could 'throw' or pass the flag to a teammate. how far it went depended on your speed/momentum at the time
                also, when the flag drops, you can't return it. you have to wait 30 seconds (?) for it to return. if an enemy touches it, the 30 seconds resets

                a couple of interesting mechanics. throw might work in UT CTF. i'm not sure about the return thing, since UT CTF maps are a lot smaller than tribes ones. and navigating to a precise location is a little trickier with tribes jetpack

                Comment


                  #9
                  IIRC there was a CTF mod for UT2003 (or 2004) called Alliance or something similar. In that mod flag can be picked up only by a player who picked up a fixed number of orbs placed somwhere on map. Each of that orbs gives to carrier some weakness (slower speed, lower weapon damage, lower health), making him very dependent on the rest of the team.

                  -----
                  Speaking of Tribes (Tribes 2 in my case) BTW, it was my first game that gave me large open maps and vehicles (which was a few years before UT2004's Onslaught). Me overall impression was that Tribes is a well tought skill-based team game. IIRC also there were no blood/gibs and mature taunts ("shazbot!"?) - looks like more esport-oriented to me.
                  - got sig? -

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by bacon buster View Post
                    throw might work in UT CTF.
                    Hell yeah - that sounds awesome. Kind of ctf crossed with an element of bombing run. The m button could be used to launch it. It would make the game much faster though, and possibly raise the skill ceiling even higher, while rewarding teams that communicate a lot. I can imagine an attacked being low on the way out throwing a flag across the chasm on blank.

                    This would make a great mutator... 'flag throw'

                    But on this topic in general, I think the CTF game mode has lots of room to expand. It takes a while to make a new game mode, as far as I'm aware, probably less long to build on existing ones. Might add the fun the game seems to need to compete with overwatch.

                    Imagine CTF with flag throw, and also two nodes just outside base that control access to the flag - ie: you have to shut the node down before you can grab. Hard to imagine how it would play out.

                    I think any kind of 'class' element in UT would break the spirit of the game... not in an offensive way, but it's just so UT that everyone spawns equally.
                    Maps: DM-Dying_Sun WIP & DM-TokaraSwamp
                    www.shockandrockets.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ali Dark View Post
                      I think any kind of 'class' element in UT would break the spirit of the game... not in an offensive way, but it's just so UT that everyone spawns equally.
                      I am tempted to build some basic game modes like payload, team king of the hill and a variation of CTF without going into the class stuff until later on.

                      What if payload is fun in standard UT4? It might actually be fun.
                      What if CTF only needs some small changes to make it way more interesting?

                      Having to hold the enemy flag on a central point of the map to capture it would probably make for an interesting change. Also what if there was an alternate objective that can modify how hard it is to cap the enemy flag?

                      My MAIN gripe with CTF us that you can often end up in stalemate games. Otherwise the mode is fine. What if there were mechanics in place to make those stalemate games impossible?
                      - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
                      YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
                      Steemit: https://steemit.com/@thecastle
                      Twitter: @zZCastleZz

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
                        Seems like the simplest form of this would be to make it so you can capture without your flag being home.
                        Having a capture point separate from the flag is something that actually dates back to Team Fortress Classic (TFC) or perhaps Quake Fortress, though putting it in the middle of the map could make flag running very easy.
                        The idea is that the center point becomes a king of the hill style mode where you have to hold the flag in that space for X seconds without the other team contesting it.

                        Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
                        !
                        Tribes (or, at least, Tribes: Ascend) is a literal fortress game mode with flags. Tribes is built around making it impossible to for flag runners to capture flags (ergo, the "Fortress"), forcing the rest of the team to work together to break through or disrupt while at the same time keeping their own base fortified. Without the engineer class and CTF_2fort, TF2 would not have any claim to the word "fortress" at all.
                        That's good for Tribes and all but for UT4 I have a tough time imaging this being pulled off. Hmm
                        - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
                        YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
                        Steemit: https://steemit.com/@thecastle
                        Twitter: @zZCastleZz

                        Comment


                          #13
                          So while I dont care for the tribes method of CTF described here, never played it, it does bring up another idea though that I think would be a great addition. The ability to score points towards winning other than capturing the flag. Say for example a ctf match now requires a team to get 100 points. You can earn 20 points for a flag cap or create an easier but less rewarding 2nd objective that awards say 5 points per completion.
                          PayBack

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by PayBack View Post
                            So while I dont care for the tribes method of CTF described here, never played it, it does bring up another idea though that I think would be a great addition. The ability to score points towards winning other than capturing the flag. Say for example a ctf match now requires a team to get 100 points. You can earn 20 points for a flag cap or create an easier but less rewarding 2nd objective that awards say 5 points per completion.
                            yeah so its not only about the flags. Even though that comically makes this a CTF mode that doesn't focus on the flags I like the idea.
                            - Russell Meakim AKA The Castle
                            YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjE...JOGtfv1RK2DpNg
                            Steemit: https://steemit.com/@thecastle
                            Twitter: @zZCastleZz

                            Comment


                              #15
                              So yeah about the CTF/KOTH mix, Special delivery is exactly that.

                              In case you didn't played it, here's the description :
                              "Special Delivery is a game mode introduced in the Pyromania Update. The objective for both teams is to take a neutral briefcase to a specified area of the map, while preventing the other team from doing so. It combines elements of Capture the Flag and Payload.

                              Once the round starts, the neutral Australium briefcase is unobtainable for 45 seconds. Once taken by a member of a team, the Australium becomes property of that team by switching to that team's color and will emit gold sparkles, small clothing particles and a long golden trail. If the carrier is killed, the briefcase will be dropped and can only be picked up by the same team. If the opposing team successfully defends it for a duration of 45 seconds, it will return to its original location and become neutral again, allowing either team to take it.
                              Players must take the Australium to a loading platform. Only the team with the Australium can make the platform operate. Similar to the Payload Cart, the platform will gradually dispense health and ammo to friendly players. Unlike the Payload Cart, the speed of the loading platform is not dependent on the number of teammates on it; only the teammate carrying the Australium can move the platform. If the Australium is dropped or the Australium leaves the platform, the platform will retreat and gradually return to its original position. Once the platform reaches the top of the rocket, a compartment on the nose of the rocket will open. The team that places the Australium in this compartment will launch the rocket, winning the game. Note that once the Australium compartment is open, the platform no longer needs to be raised in order to launch the rocket. As long as a player is able to make contact with the compartment, the rocket will launch."

                              Could be an interesting version to try, with some tweaking of course.

                              One other version I saw was during a stream about the Alpha of Lawbreakers. Here you have only one battery, that you have to transport to your base. Once placed on the platforms the Battery charge up, and you have to fully charge it to 100% AND keep it inside your base for 20 (?) more seconds in order to win one point/round (first win to reach two points win). The twist is that of course the enemy team can intercept the battery by killing the carrier and then standing near it for around 5 seconds. However the Battery keep it's current level of charge ! So it is possible (while probably not the best option ) to let it charge at the enemy base and then stole it and win !

                              So here some ideas you can pick.

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