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TAM / FREON / 3SPN and how can it be part of Unreal Tournament!

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    where am I wrong in my post exactly?

    I've played plenty of tam cups, mostly div 1 "clanbase", so I know what Im talking about. I love TAM actually, but its a fact thats its easy to play compared to TDM (cant say for CTF). Pick 4 players, in a few maps they can be a top team, it wont be the case in TDM, it requires much more time and practice to be a good team. Moreover a beginner in tam will be able to do some damage quickly, he has all the weapons and doesnt even need to move, he can just spam around a corner. Of course when I say beginner, I mean someone who already played some FPS... In tdm a beginner gets destroyed. And it can be hyper frustrating for him. He will just run during 20 minutes, without even grabbing a weapon. In TAM, each round, he hopes.

    And that is something very important. Nowadays, fast FPS players are really good, we have all played for years, fifteen years even for a few. I know some friends who tried ut2004 months ago, they gave up because the skill gap is huge. We really need something for new players. Matchmaking is an option, a more "noob friendly" mode like TAM, is also an option.

    last point : I remember I enjoyed TAM at the beginning for another reason. When you are dead, you become a spectator. And you can see how best players on the server are playing.
    Last edited by boNz; 12-12-2014, 02:02 PM.

    Comment


      TAM has the distinct advantages of obvious objectives and goal. Most people joining TDM matches have no idea it's even about control at first.

      Either game is going to be as difficult as your competition is competent.
      Originally posted by Mysterial
      An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

      Comment


        If you guys start this Mod, why don't you add Multi Arena per Map Support (where 'TAM' could be found in the Clan Arena) and call it like it once was: Rocket Arena / Rocketeer. Loved to play and map for those When I last played TAM, it was a very basic version of RA on default DM Maps. Did that change (so I could understand why to make TAM instead of RA)?

        Comment


          Yeah, it's not a "version of RA" at all.

          Loaded spawns and NI (No Items) game play can be adapted to all sorts of different game types. It is not a game type in and of itself. Nor is round based play.

          RA's multi-arena setups worked because it was mostly made for a 1v1/2v2 format, where the small maps forced confrontation. There was no where to run. This played well since it lacked of items to create flow. The arenas were also designed with the effects of no self damage in mind, so damage free rocket jumps and such things didn't completely break map flow. The down side was the big download.

          TAM was designed for DM maps, looking for a more competitive 4v4/5v5 format. It maintained (mostly) normal self damage, so as not to disrupt map flow, spawned players collectively so there was the option for better teamwork, and introduced a negative feedback loop, which often is forgotten as a primary tenet of TAM, as today is is mostly disabled. The downside was no items to promote flow, and very defensive play, especially at the ends of rounds.

          Self damage completely changes the weapon balance, and thus the game. I also still have not seen an adaptation of the spawning on any given map mad to work like the TAM mod did.

          They are different mods, and they could both exist. Or someone would come up with another similar mod, and call it something else.
          Originally posted by Mysterial
          An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

          Comment


            Originally posted by ecreif View Post
            Normal DM was just awful, timing is the least interesting thing in a competetive game. Its actually learning a course and looking at the clock.
            If you do that and are good at it all other skills become less important because the arsenal and health wins.
            How is that competetive?
            Of course some are better at timing than others, but some are also better at drinking beer very fast than others..

            For me skill has nothing todo with memorize map courses and times. Its about who is stronger in an equal fight.
            Firstly I have to point out in my opinion that this is a somewhat shortsighted view. Timing itself may be a skill that doesn't rely on other players, but you must remember that there is also another player on the map who doesn't want to let you do what you want - or in the case of TDM, an entire enemy team. It's not just 'running a course' because there are variables.

            It adds a level of depth to the game. Let's take for example a situation on DM-Rankin in UT2004. Your opponent is a strong aimer but you managed to get the first frags and a good position. You worked the 50 shield, LG and shock into a timing cycle so on an open map like Rankin you have a large advantage and can control the range of the fights. You're free to stack up on the vials in the outer area and your opponent is restricted to rockets and flak.

            Your opponent is playing out of control and so has a few options. He has to stack up on health and try and whittle down your health with spam, and pick a moment to attack. If he heard you take the shock, does he try to damage you at the next shock pickup? Does he try to control the 50 corridor with flak spam and build up shields slowly? Or does he try to attack the next 100 shield? Will he attack you head on in a closed space, or will he try to control your health with long range spam while he builds up his own?

            Let's say for example that you got reckless and he managed to land a massive flak bomb on you at the 50 shield and take it. At this point a few things could happen. Your stacks are fairly even now though you still have the weapon advantage. You can try to run away for health but you know if you do that you will give up the LG, shock and/or 100 and this will massively shift the balance. You can try and fight to the end to maintain control but you could also die and lose it. Similarly he could try to chase you down or instead set up for the next item. You can't keep "all" the control anymore so what happens?

            In duel you need to have a well-rounded skillset. Players with better aim have lost to players with better tactics as much as the other way around. But even in an aimbased game like 2k4 only players with a fully well rounded skillset will achieve top results consistently. I can do well in TDM by playing to my strengths but that can only take you so far in 1v1.

            And this is without touching on TDM tactics like timing key weapons, switching before dying not to give guns to the enemy, synchronised boosters, and stuff like that.

            With regards to TAM: I think it's pretty inevitable that the gametype will be included. IMO it is a perfect option for public play precisely because there is no control and every round is balanced. Who wants to join the losing team halfway through a TDM game with 10 minutes to go when there are 2 high skilled players on the enemy team who locked down the map? While TDM practice games (arranged clan practices) probably improved my skill more quickly than any other gametype, TAM was great fun to play casually on publics and great for improving my hitscan aim due to the nature of the mod. However I am not so fond of it as a competitive mod. It becomes a game of corner peeking and LG's then rush with mini as soon as they are low. It feels more like a game of CS than UT because people are reluctant to attack in the open and run into a wall of combos and headshots for example.

            That's not to say I don't enjoy it at all but I only started playing well when I joined a team with a free and aggressive style. Every time we tried to play with 'tactics' I'd either get nervous or bored. It worked best when we just play with 'common sense'. But it's true that there are a lot less skills to master in TAM. Communication, movement and aim - that's all you really need. In TDM you need all that plus team chemistry and tactics as well.

            I don't think it's fair to blame TAM for the death of TDM in 2k4 because at the end of the day more people found TAM more fun so more of them played it. Those of us who enjoy TDM more can complain about the net effect but I'm not sure limiting available options is a sensible thing. Given the way UT4 plays I doubt we will see a repeat of the overly hitscanny, defensive nature of 2k4 TAM anyway even if it is implemented. Personally I say go for it, whether it is TAM or CA or something else. It will be a great thing for new players to improve their playing and could potentially act as a 'gateway' into other mods. The one thing it can seemingly do is appeal to players who dislike map control (such as even insta players) as well as those looking to practice their fragging.

            Comment


              Tam/Freon I guess at some point will be added.
              In europe its hugely popular and good way to learn the game

              We still have full server everyday on Core freon server, and ffm tam is full everyday.

              So im actually not worried about that.

              make good movement and well balanced weapons and it will be added.

              www.corenation.com

              Comment


                Can someone explain me what TAM/FREON is ? I never heard something about this things?

                Comment


                  Freon is, lets say 4 vs 4 dead players freeze instead of dying. So if a team m8 stands close for 5-6 seconds u thaw the player and he gets back.

                  Tam is 4 vs 4. all have same weapons ammo hp shield (as with freon, u basicly spawn with it all), so no pick ups. then the team with last living members(member) takes the point. both freon and tam is first to 10 points. im not english speaking but hope my quick explanation helped


                  your more than welcome to come try it its utk4 www.corenation.com freon

                  Tam you can have a go at F.F.M clan server our neiighbour clan http://www.ffm-clan.com/
                  Last edited by Ghash_Hardass; 03-06-2015, 12:27 PM.

                  Comment


                    @Ghash_Hardass: You mean 5vs5

                    I would love to see tam as one of the default game types in the new ut. I played more tam than any other game types (mainly on ut2k4).

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by dufte View Post


                      I would love to see tam as one of the default game types in the new ut. I played more tam than any other game types (mainly on ut2k4).
                      Same here!

                      Comment


                        Pretty sure that having a novice-friendly gametype like TAM could be absolutely essential to the game's success, both initially and long-term. It's what many, many people who have played FPS know (spawn with multiple weapons, shoot people) and many others want (as not everyone is willing or able to manage/time pickups and armor). From there you can then make the transition to TDM and duel at some point (that's what I did in 2k4), but having to start with those modes is bound to be hugely frustrating for so many players that we should like to keep in the game.

                        Comment


                          I've always been a sucker for the type of elminiation mechanic in game modes like TAM, especially with teamwork.
                          The dynamics of every round change throughout the game, things that work at the beginning of a round with all players alive don't work as well when it boils down to a 1v1, and things that work in a 1v1 won't work if it's a 3v1.

                          That combined with the threat of having to sit out for a while if you perform poorly just makes the whole experience so rewarding.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Tichinde925 View Post
                            Hello Everyone!

                            TAM, which stands for Team Arena Master, is a casual gametype, which was created by the UT2004 community, which combines the elements of Team Deathmatch with Last Man Standing.
                            Done. You can find the original post here. Enjoy !

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Gully View Post
                              Pretty sure that having a novice-friendly gametype like TAM could be absolutely essential to the game's success, both initially and long-term.
                              my friend that is absolutely not true. tam slowly killed every other mod. maybe ut4 tam will be active in short term but its not good for other mods in long therm. before tam every mod had a huge skill ceiling. there was enough beginners and enough pros. everyone could find players on his level. if you didnt want to improve it was fine, there were others on your level. if you wanted to improve there were always teams players above you and you could improve.

                              after tam it all changed. you dont have to fight for weapons. there are no powerups to time. you dont have to fight for armor. most low skilled players moved to tam instantly. the new players just played tam because other mods did not have big activity after tam. and if they played other mods where they had to fight for even having a weapon, where they had to time items and powerups or simply said they were out of their comfort zone most of them simply gave up quick after the first big losses. im not talking about few exception who became great in 1v1, tdm or ctf. I'm talking about the majority. In tam even if you dont get kills you get points. even if you resurrect someone(stupid mod imho) that gives you more points then hard earned kills.

                              eventually even the best players from tdm ctf instagib etc moved to tam because they couldnt play their own mod because there was simply not enough people. and the new players didnt try and learn other mods for the very same reason.

                              in short term its fine. especially for beginners. they can spectate how the pros play while they are dead. they can see how they use movement, how they do move combos, how they evade shots etc. so its good that they can learn the basics, movement, weapon handling. but the problem in long term it soaks players from all other mods and slowly kills all.

                              Comment


                                2kx was already dead when TAM came out.
                                Originally posted by Mysterial
                                An instant hit, accurate, instant kill weapon is overpowered. There's no skill ceiling. It's limited only by the shooter's accuracy. It also severely impairs the defensive side of the game - ignoring ping, it is nearly irrelevant what your opponent does - click the right pixel and you win. Even non-instant kill instant hit weapons are often problematic - the Shock Rifle example is obvious before even getting to other games.

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