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A major problem with CTF

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    #16
    The main issue I see here is that you (OP) try to play CTF in single player mode.

    CTF is a team game and you need to approach it as such.

    CS:GO shows how far you can get with good matchmaking and a mandatory voicecom. Even new players learn how to act as a team.
    We never had such a feature with previous UT games, so pubs were more chaotic and sometimes frustrating.

    But even then you had streaks of good teamplay simply because players learned what they had to do in a teamgame.

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      #17
      Originally posted by DECA1 View Post
      Ok, so we probably all agree that the hardest part of CTF is getting that **** thing back to our base. And that is because the enemy team will always be alerted to your whereabouts and that you're an important target THE MOMENT you take the flag.

      So imagine you're playing a 5v5, 4 of your teammates are defending and you're the solo attacker! The enemy team, however, are all attacking and have only one defender. So if you manage to get the enemy's flag, while 4 of them are attacking and only 1 is defending, technically you only have to beat one guy to get the flag.

      But then that guy respawns, right at the base. So you have to kill him again. By the time you do that, those attackers are all back and trying to protect their flag. So even if you kill all of them in one life, the ones respawning are still probably going to be fast enough, using translocators and whatnot, to reach you AGAIN.

      And now, suppose that after your heroic efforts and 8+ kills alone in a single life, your team comes to protect you and the enemy engages them. If by some stretch of the imagination you die and one of the enemy team translocates to their flag (which really isn't that hard to do), their flag is instantly safe and all your efforts have been for absolutely nothing.
      I think I understand your overall point, and I am 100% in agreement with you. The actual details about how you described the situation though has left you open for some fair counterpoints. The whole part about solo-Rambo-ing for a flag cap and so forth. People can (and will) spend hours picking apart the details in that part. Others will insult you and say you don't understand CTF, or that you just suck, that your sister is ugly and your Momma dresses you funny, and whatever else they feel they need to say in order to shut down your opinion. And in the meantime miss the overall issue. The forest for the trees kind of thing.

      The real issue as I see it, isn't how you got the enemy flag halfway or most-way across the map, all that matters is that you and your team got the flag that far. No, the real issue is that you had to fight to get it there, and now all they have to do is barely touch it and it auto-magically returns aaalll the waaaay back safe at home. To me, and to some others out there in the world (scattered in small packets like some kind of rebel forces) that just smacks of BS.

      So, anyway, it was mentioned in this thread, and you touched on it a bit yourself;

      Make the flag not return instantly;
      .

      Bingo.

      If you had to fight to get the flag halfway home, make them fight to Carry the Flag back home. Whats good for the goose, should be good for the gander (or something like that).

      If you speak to some of the elder natives, you'll hear them tell the tale of a man, a man named Versix. who did a version of this CarryTheFlag style 'back in the day' for UT. But then over time, he sort of let it die on the vine. But while men come and go, ideas remain. Then we, @ Chaos, picked up the banner of this idea and carried it a bit further. (And let me tell you kind sir , the issues that come up when putting this into play are no small matter, whew!)

      Personally, I would be happy if every game ever made from this point forward started using this logic. Then, maybe someday, the world will collectively look back at what is considered 'normal' CTF these days and think "My God! How did we ever live in a world like that?!" Short of that, well.. guess we're counting on mods/muts.

      tl:dr - They used to try to cure disease with blood-sucking leeches.

      Comment


        #18
        Attacking the enemy base should be a team effort; the scenario you propose in the first post should never happen. It happens in public play, sure, but it still isn't good play. If you have a few buddies one or two can cover you/delay respawning enemies while you fall back. I saw CS GO mentioned, and its a good example in situations such as the hostage maps. One guy cannot push in and grab the hostage and get out without cover. CTF also isn't just about breaking defenses therefore capturing the flag should be easy. Its a very dynamic game. Assault is more of a gametype focused on breaking defenses.

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          #19
          Originally posted by R.Flagg View Post
          If you had to fight to get the flag halfway home, make them fight to Carry the Flag back home. Whats good for the goose, should be good for the gander (or something like that).

          If you speak to some of the elder natives, you'll hear them tell the tale of a man, a man named Versix. who did a version of this CarryTheFlag style 'back in the day' for UT. But then over time, he sort of let it die on the vine. But while men come and go, ideas remain. Then we, @ Chaos, picked up the banner of this idea and carried it a bit further. (And let me tell you kind sir , the issues that come up when putting this into play are no small matter, whew!)

          I presume people have actually played this concept a decent amount over the years since it's been a discussion topic as long as this genre has existed. How on earth do flag standoffs ever end? We see standoffs that last half as long as the match already and sometimes push the lengths of OT and that's with instant telefrag returns and powerups usually going to return players. Having to fight your way across the map twice to end one (and have at least a 1 man handicap on the return run) sounds immeasurably more frustrating than having your teammates cherry pick instead of covering. And believe me I've yelled at my monitor plenty about that.

          Comment


            #20
            CTF worked just fine in UT99, so why mess with it? If a map makes for bad game play, it won't be very popular.
            UT4 CTF Maps: CTF-Whiplash | CTF-Sidewinder | CTF-Highpoint | CTF-Hardcore | CTF-Tubes-Of-Spam

            UT99 CTF Maps: CTF-DagnysBigAssMap-V2 | CTF-Dagnys-P****WhIpPeD | CTF-Dagnys-Dark-Delight-LE102 | CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
              CTF worked just fine in UT99, so why mess with it? If a map makes for bad game play, it won't be very popular.


              I agree here. UT99 CTF had a very strong playerbase with lots of clans, ladders, tournaments etc. It was very popular and it was lots of fun playing CTF back these days. Unfortunately, this changed after UT99.


              Originally posted by Buffekerel View Post
              Another balance is people NOT PLAYING IT.

              At least some people are trying to fix problems or think about problems and discuss about them.
              Maybe, but please keep in mind there are lots of people trying to fix nonexistent "problems".
              Without talking to anyone in particular here, sometimes I think those guys should go for a different game instead of trying to distort the UT series to a point of there liking (beyond recognition as an UT title).
              Last edited by ZenMaster; 08-27-2014, 03:57 AM.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by ZenMaster View Post
                It was very popular and it was lots of fun playing CTF back these days. Unfortunately, this changed after UT99.
                in my eyes it changed in ut99 already. with the introduction of lowping the game changed a lot and ppl were going for pulse, asmd, sniper all.the.time.
                this was the time when the hitscan problem (hand in hand with defensive play being beneficial) occured for the first time. also the maps scaled up. coret, dreary and such were not built for hitscan stuff. go check the newer ones.

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