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Many Gametypes + Unfragmented Community - Is It Possible?

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    Many Gametypes + Unfragmented Community - Is It Possible?

    I'm pretty sure many here have already thought about how to both have all the gametypes they want, and still have enough players to play with in each one.

    FliccC put this very nicely:

    Originally posted by FliccC View Post
    Although there is a definite upside to having multiple game-modes. I want to remind all of you, that this very feature is also the biggest weakness of UT.

    In the past different communities formed around different game-types, basically splitting the total player-pool into multiple smaller ones. As soon as people stopped buying the game, and newbies stopped coming, we all suffered because every single community eventually got so small that it got extinct, although the total amount of UT players was still reasonably big.

    Why did it split up the player-pool, weren't there also players who played multiple game-modes?
    Yes, but from my memory at least everyone was very protective about their own realm, more less fighting for who's right, or which one is better. Ignorance.

    In UT2004 we basically had a total amount of players (100%), which split up into:

    Normal Weapons (50%)
    Instagib (50%)

    and these even split up further into

    nw TDM 20%
    nw CTF 15%
    nw AS 7%
    nw ONS 5%
    nw BR 3%

    iCTF 35%
    iTDM 10%
    iAS 3%
    iBR 2%

    not to mention all the smaller specialized mods and mutators used exclusively by even smaller groups. UTRPG, ASTrials, TrickJumping, LowGrav etc.

    as soon as everyone left and every game-mode basically died out, the only thing that survived was the lowest common denominator: TAM (100%). A casual game-mode instagib-players could play just as well as nw players. But I wouldn't call this mode UT, and I wouldn't call it fun. The most consistent player-base over the years probably was on the demo-servers, which only ran nwTDM and nwCTF, DM-Rankin only / CTF-Face only. These servers are full, even today. But the competitive scene is (I know some don't want to hear this: ) dead.

    Now this is something important to think about, also when looking at a possible match-making system. Trying to queue for a CTF game could take half an hour, playing UT could mean, that a lot of people are waiting at the same time, instead of playing (another game-mode) with each other.
    Let's dedicate this thread to finding a strategy for making the players more approving of other gametypes than their own comfort-zone. Otherwise, what's the point of investing countless hours in developing BR/DDOM/AS and their respective maps when everyone will be playing TDM?

    I think we should push for mixed-gametype servers for everyone to get the full UT experience. Everyone who isn't competitive/pr0 surely won't mind playing a nice match of CTF right after a Deathmatch.

    Another solution, courtesy of FliccC (I don't like it, because it means that the innovative modes won't get played):

    Originally posted by FliccC View Post
    Solution: Make as many mods and game-modes possible but restrict Match-Making to only 3 types: 1on1, CTF, TDM.

    Each with it's own competitive rule-set: 1on1 = noAmp, 15min; CTF 5on5 = noSuperWeapons, 20min etc. The chosen maps would also need to be restricted to be competitively viable. Rules and map-cycle of match-making would need to be actively moderated, to evolve with the players playing it. I will go deeper into that when we'll be discussing Match-Making (in October?).
    Snir "DDRRE" Hassidim - Living and breathing UT since 2002!
    "When Video Games and the Enterprise Meet" - Read my chronicles of building a gamers club at my workplace.
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    #2
    Don't implement any modes other than DM and TDM.

    Two reasons:
    1. Players who get bored of DM will be desperate to play anything else, and there won't be the big fancy team-oriented officially supported game types (CTF, ONS, AS, BR) to absorb their boredom. That means more Jailbreak, CUT, Airfight, KOTH and whatever else comes along that get an equal chance at a first impression. It's like trickle-down economics for sadists.
    2. You avoid the entire translocator debate if you leave CTF up to the modders.



    Then again, that's just shifting the responsibility onto the marketplace. If the marketplace just ends up serving CTF, AS and BR as the top-three 'favorites' on every page, it's back to square one.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Dementiurge View Post
      Don't implement any modes other than DM and TDM.
      Wait... what?

      They're mains, yes... but I'll definitely get bored of only playing two modes. Honestly I play (V)CTF, Assault and ONS/WAR more than killing some random guys off in an arena (of course they're fun, but come on...)

      Comment


        #4
        I don't think an unfragmented community is needed that much. It's a free game, so it should always have enough players anyway. The real problem is how to promote custom gametypes...
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          #5
          By not providing those other game modes you don't really prevent the core community for the few remaining game modes from shrinking. You only force people to go and play entirely different games.

          Anyway, the problem with the competitive community is that many players simply jump to new games when they come out. The only way to prevent one game's competitive community from shrinking is to prevent other games from being released.
          <elmuerte> you shouldn't do all-nighters, it's a waste of time and effort
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            #6
            Got pretty bored of Onslaught and Assault in UT04 very quickly, some flaws that came to mind, very slow paced, too many vehicles and not enough ground soldier action, took too long to complete objectives, not saying that is a bad thing, UT was always about instant gratification of doing something, even the frags came very slow in these modes. Needs to be at least one revolutionary mode, something that no game has tried before. Like maybe having 3 bombs in a base and having to deliver each one to the enemy base in certain locations, the first team to deliver 3 bombs first to the enemy delivery points in their base wins. If a bomb does not get delivered or captured by enemy, it is returned to the friendly base, sort of like a 3 flag ctf sort of deal. Other traditional modes can be worked in like DM, CTF, maybe with small twists of some kind. Was a big sniper CTF fan in original UT although would never expect insta CTF to return to any new version of UT. It should be focused with solid game modes that everyone wants to play a little or a lot.

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              #7
              The many gametype's is fine so long as UT has ONE gametype which can hook the masses. We need something fresh though.

              Those are the keys to the Kingdom.
              Last edited by xios; 09-02-2014, 02:56 AM.
              irc.globalgamers.net | #2k4ctf |#ut4pugs | #unrealtournament | Ownedwell.com | UT2004 Grail

              Comment


                #8
                Some console games in particular have had Queues specifically for mixed-gametype pubs. This also helps alleviate the issue of less-popular gametypes having queues that are longer than others which inherently accelerates the death of that gametype because people would rather play a gametype they like less than wait around doing nothing. See: Titanfall. A solution to this would be allowing people to queue up for a gametype while already playing in a pub.

                This is one area where a lot of lessons could probably be taken from previous games' successes and failures.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by conX5 View Post
                  Some console games in particular have had Queues specifically for mixed-gametype pubs. This also helps alleviate the issue of less-popular gametypes having queues that are longer than others which inherently accelerates the death of that gametype because people would rather play a gametype they like less than wait around doing nothing. See: Titanfall. A solution to this would be allowing people to queue up for a gametype while already playing in a pub.

                  This is one area where a lot of lessons could probably be taken from previous games' successes and failures.
                  Great idea.
                  Snir "DDRRE" Hassidim - Living and breathing UT since 2002!
                  "When Video Games and the Enterprise Meet" - Read my chronicles of building a gamers club at my workplace.
                  Facebook | LinkedIn

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I don't know about you guys, but on my Team Fortress 2 server I have all maps of all gamemodes and it works fine, people aren't annoyed by it. Ofcourse, UT has a few that are just too different to be together, but you can mash together quite a few, at lease I think so. While with TF2 people are fine with the server swtiching gamemodes, it seems like UT players hate that kind of thing.

                    The fragmenting is not too much of an issue, I mean, the gamemodes that people want to play will be played, that's just how it is(Even if at the moment all I can play on UT99 are stupid modifications or funnel maps, or either the same map all day long..gee, I just want to play the vanilla game online).

                    Anyways, I've always had the Queue idea in the back of my mind, because I've tried filling up my TF2 server A LOT and just flat out failed.
                    It would be nice if you could Queue in a server, and then specify at which amount of players and or or Queued players you want to automatically join. You could play on other servers while waiting or even not be playing the game itself at all. a Queue for a gamemode would be nice too. But for the server specific thing, let people easily see how many people are in the Queue and how many people are playing the game. This would make it so much easier to seed servers. People just don't have the time to idle on a server the whole time.

                    Also, the feature of joining or notifying when there's a spot available in a full server is pretty important to have, a lot of games have that. It could also be a good idea to expand upon that and let two friends wait until a server has less players, so when 2 spots go, both join at the same time.
                    Last edited by Dylstew; 09-06-2014, 02:41 AM.

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                      #11
                      There were more assault players than ons players in '04? [scratches head]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by JZL View Post
                        There were more assault players than ons players in '04? [scratches head]
                        Depends on your definition of Assault. If you count Trials and Racing, then yes.
                        Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
                        My website, listing all my Unreal series mods and mutators

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                          #13
                          The main problem never was too many game modes but lack of one main one.

                          If you look on cs there is de_fuse mod which is one big main competetive mode and there is hell a lot of other mods. You just need one big game mode that you focus on and promote and then you have another mods to give game more content.

                          The main mode should get more attention then other from devs. Should be team based and competetive with depth and new ideas. Dev team push for CTF and i will say it will fail because CTF is slightly changed DM. I'll repeat it over and over on this forum that CTF is a not good enough mode for todays market and playerbase.

                          UT community didn't survive like other communities did, UT was created by epic that have money and could make that happend, ...

                          there was only few tournaments > which means there is no real pro players in UT> because to be a proplayers you need to have game with tournaments and leagues for long time for thing called META GAME came to exist.

                          Reason why cs players play mainly same maps for years it's not just because they are good maps but having same map pool for longer time makes team/players create more new strats for map, then counter strats and creating "META GAME" where teams keep creating new ideas for map in order to win.

                          UT never get that far competetive. I know there are some highly skilled players way better than chumbo even he is good player but in cs one of the most famous quotes is "cs is a game of small margins" and until those margins will be created in UT competetive game mode we can't really talk about "pro players" and "eSport"

                          CTF doesn't give part from movement (translocator) any tools to play with for players. There is no depth in this mode and even if you try to find some it would be only player experience not viewer one and eSport is about viewers.
                          Last edited by pR8; 09-08-2014, 08:10 AM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by FliccC
                            Solution: Make as many mods and game-modes possible but restrict Match-Making to only 3 types: 1on1, CTF, TDM.

                            Each with it's own competitive rule-set: 1on1 = noAmp, 15min; CTF 5on5 = noSuperWeapons, 20min etc. The chosen maps would also need to be restricted to be competitively viable. Rules and map-cycle of match-making would need to be actively moderated, to evolve with the players playing it. I will go deeper into that when we'll be discussing Match-Making (in October?).
                            This is the best way. Also add Ladder/Leagues and competitions / tournaments with said gametypes. For trying out experimental gametypes... if there will be seasons then there can be one non-standard gametype added to the pool for testing how viable it is.
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                              #15
                              Hi,
                              i will make a premise and try to be brief:

                              Premise:
                              A. we agree that we want the new UT to have a large playerbase yes? In order to achieve this I think we will also have to agree on the necessity of offering gamemodes that are fun, attractive, give that "UT experience", but should still be accessible for new players.
                              B. The UT fans will be onboard with the new UT anyway, they already know what they want to play and will play it

                              My thoughts:
                              -i think simply narrowing down the choice only to the "core" (or you could say "old") gametypes is wrong.
                              the reason for which other gametypes spawned and replaced others was that: a. They were fun, b. They gave players something new, c. Always playing the same gametype can become dull

                              -i agree that always playing the same map and gamemode can be very nice and rewarding too. like football; that s always played on the same map , yet it remains very exciting. The problem here is that coming to appreciate this is something you achieve only when you re quite experienced IMO, so you dont want to concentrate only on those to gain new players and let the playerbase grow.

                              -the fragmentation, as some call it, but you could also define it as "new gametypes being born", is what kept UT games alive, rather than destroy them, as someone else was suggesting. Even if you look at what is being played today on ut99 and ut2004 you will see that it's largely mods and gametypes that were not in the original versions.

                              -in my very personal opinion a "big" gamemode that implements almost every element of the UT palette, such as ONS/AS/races/VCTF, could represent a good point of attraction for new players (we could even think of blending elements of these together in a new gamemode)

                              A possible solution:
                              only let a certain amount of "core" gametypes be accessible in the beginning (DM, TDM, CTF and their insta versions). You have a to gain a certain amount of total points to then be able to access the "big" gametypes (like ONS), a bit more points to access the whole wide world of UT with all its mods. Alternatively make a 2 step process: first core, then all gametypes. Another alternative is to have a few very different gametypes (e.g. dm, ctf , ons, utrpg), then open the rest.

                              The rationale for this would be to let new players learn a minimum of UT skills, before being thrown into the sharktank. This way you could avoid scaring some players away, who would only get smoked all the time if you gave them everything from the start. Having a more gradual approach can let new players understand a bit more of the game itself and hereafter make a more conscious decision about what gametype they prefer.
                              In a certain way, UT revolves around the mastery of an armamentarium of skills (your movement-, aim-, weaponskills, vehichle skills, etc that are then applied to the gamemode and strategy you decide to go for...

                              sorry about the textwall,
                              cheers
                              Last edited by Gengisgandhi; 09-17-2014, 07:55 PM.

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