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Please save CTF : faster teleporter + 3 rockets pack

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    #46
    The distinguishing thing with 2k4 and UT3 is that aiming higher gives you a lot more distance than UT does by comparison. Also, since UT3 retains momentum you can get quite far throws by moving right and throwing high.

    I really think that the momentum retention is valuable but needs to be balanced. Right now, IMO, the arc is too high, the speed is way too slow, the disk seems too heavy, and it carries no momentum meaning you can move almost as fast by dodge spam/sprint which is ridiculous.
    HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
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      #47
      Originally posted by CvP View Post
      For trajectory, I think it is important to have it like UT2k4 where you don't have to fire a LOT of times to get somewhere faster. However, it should have less charges than UT2k4. It needs to be such an amount that people have to mix and match instead of always in telemonkey mode.

      Also, longer trajectory + less charge = people moving fast but not warping too frequently to make most weapons useless.


      PS: I also think the charge count should be dictated by the map designer rather than a FIXED value by Epic. Some CTF maps will require 7; some maps will be totally useless with anything more than 4.
      CvP:
      1) did you play competitive ctf in any of the previous UT's?
      2) do you plan on playing competitive ctf in UT4?
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        #48
        Originally posted by CvP View Post
        For trajectory, I think it is important to have it like UT2k4 where you don't have to fire a LOT of times to get somewhere faster. However, it should have less charges than UT2k4. It needs to be such an amount that people have to mix and match instead of always in telemonkey mode.

        Also, longer trajectory + less charge = people moving fast but not warping too frequently to make most weapons useless.


        PS: I also think the charge count should be dictated by the map designer rather than a FIXED value by Epic. Some CTF maps will require 7; some maps will be totally useless with anything more than 4.
        Absolutely no.

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          #49
          Originally posted by raxxy View Post
          Absolutely no.
          The voice of reason.

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            #50
            Originally posted by Infra` View Post
            CvP:
            1) did you play competitive ctf in any of the previous UT's?
            2) do you plan on playing competitive ctf in UT4?
            And that has any relation to this...how?

            Originally posted by raxxy View Post
            Absolutely no.
            Nice argument.


            Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
            I really think that the momentum retention is valuable but needs to be balanced. Right now, IMO, the arc is too high, the speed is way too slow, the disk seems too heavy, and it carries no momentum meaning you can move almost as fast by dodge spam/sprint which is ridiculous.
            I think currently it has some kinda exponential deceleration. It shots out fast but after a while, decelerates really fast. Not sure though.
            Steam: cvp_bg | UT: CvP

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              #51
              Originally posted by CvP View Post
              And that has any relation to this...how?
              It's important. A lot of people commenting on these forums are not active players and have no plans to become active in the future. Also, I think he is saying that because it seems like you don't really have much CTF experience based on the things you've said.



              Brizz: The beacon trajectory is calculated using basic kinematics. Because acceleration due to gravity will be a constant value, you need to change the initial velocities (x,y,z) to tweak it the way you want. The forward velocity will determine how fast it goes. The upward velocity will determine how long it stays in the air. Together they will govern how far you can throw the disk.

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                #52
                Originally posted by cafe View Post
                It's important. A lot of people commenting on these forums are not active players and have no plans to become active in the future. Also, I think he is saying that because it seems like you don't really have much CTF experience based on the things you've said.
                Yes this is mainly it CvP. I'm not trying to sound condescending, just more of an honest question. Things like varying ammo amounts per map will not work in competitive play. I played American and Euro ut99 ctf competitively for a few years and I am by no means a veteran, but I have seen and played with a lot great players. Organized matches raise the bar in regards to game play and you will find a new respect for the game (and on a lighter note a severe addiction so be warned ). Transing doesn't seem so spammy if you know how to defend against it (shock combo), or you are using teamspeak/vent and one of your teammates told you about the incoming person in advance. The game doesn't need to be designed based on public matches alone. Public matches are spammy and there is little team coordination, which is crucial in ctf where each player has a role (attacker, midfielder, defender).

                I truly want UT4 to have a healthy competitive ctf scene. Certain core game mechanics might not seem like a big deal, but they could drastically impact the lifespan of the gametype. UT4 doesn't have to be developed only for competitive play, but competitive play is what will keep this game alive and healthy. Limiting the trans is not going to be popular and will hurt the gametype. I'd much rather have unlimited trans by default and then an official mutator to limit the amount if necessary.
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                  #53
                  I think CTF should be balanced for competitive play first and foremost. Pub CTF has pretty much never been a big draw for casual players. We need matchmaking specifically tailored for competitive CTF with: set positions(3 offense, 2 defense), some sort of integrated voice comms, 2 map per match format. I think there should even be a commendation system, so that players can rate each other for skill in a certain area (Good flag carrier, good defender, etc.)

                  Kind of off topic, but I think it's really important to balance gameplay for competitive players. If CTF is successful AT ALL, it will be competitive CTF. Unstructured, casual CTF is one of the most unappealing gametypes I can imagine.

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                    #54
                    Yes, I have played competitively but that's besides the point. You don't need to play competitively to understand the game; heck, you don't even need to be a top player for it.

                    You don't really need "unlimited" trans if you each of your trans take you longer distance and takes you there faster. If you read carefully, the changes I suggested, together, actually boosts translocator while making this more newbie friendly.

                    Originally posted by Infra` View Post
                    but competitive play is what will keep this game alive and healthy.
                    It will not. UT4 will die out within a year if this game revolves around competitive only. But that's just my opinion as someone playing UT since the start for thousands of hours. We'll see how it pans out.
                    Steam: cvp_bg | UT: CvP

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                      #55
                      CTF needs to focus on competitive play. Let's face it, VCTF is a much better casual gametype. There are countless gametypes that will work better as for casual play than weapons CTF. Weapons CTF as a whole is probably the most complicated gametype in UT.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by cafe View Post
                        I think CTF should be balanced for competitive play first and foremost. ... If CTF is successful AT ALL, it will be competitive CTF.
                        Definitely agree here. CTF requires too much team cooperation to play without teamspeak/vent. Each player needs an assigned position and you need to know what routes your flag carrier/enemy flag carrier are going. Pub CTF is usually more every man for himself, no real coordination. We need some support from the older MLUT players, the ones that weren't a**holes at least.

                        Originally posted by cafe View Post
                        Weapons CTF as a whole is probably the most complicated gametype in UT.
                        Definitely agree with that. CTF requires dm skills, movement including hammer/trans, power up timing, and teamwork. Basically everything a good dueler needs to be plus some.

                        Originally posted by CvP View Post
                        Yes, I have played competitively but that's besides the point. You don't need to play competitively to understand the game; heck, you don't even need to be a top player for it.
                        I'd disagree here. You don't experience the full game until you play organized matches. This could even just be pugs, but you need to play organized matches where each player has a role and you are communicating with each other throughout the game via voice.
                        Originally posted by CvP
                        You don't really need "unlimited" trans if you each of your trans take you longer distance and takes you there faster. If you read carefully, the changes I suggested, together, actually boosts translocator while making this more newbie friendly.
                        Yes, the trans is supposed to take you long distances quickly, but long throws with a delay leave you vulnerable to attack. The unlimited trans helps you avoid being hit as your travel to the enemy base. CTF is about defending flags and capping flags. CTF isn't a, "oh I see you so let me stop and fight you" type of thing. If I see you in mid and I'm an attacker, I'm going to just trans past you. Long throws is nice, but it doesn't matter how long the throw is if there is a delay that leaves me vulnerable.
                        Originally posted by CvP
                        It will not. UT4 will die out within a year if this game revolves around competitive only. But that's just my opinion as someone playing UT since the start for thousands of hours. We'll see how it pans out.
                        Haha that's a pretty bold statement. UT has never been a casual game. It's a hardcore skill based arena shooter. There has always been casual players, and we politely refer to them as newbs. UT4 is not going to attract a lot of casual gamers who are not willing to take the game seriously and train to get better. This path of improving your skill leads to organized play. UT4 needs casual players, but it will only retain them if they find the game fun. What is fun? Being good and not dying every 5 seconds. How do you do that? By taking the game seriously and practising.
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                          #57
                          Personally, I wouldn't mind if they scrapped the Translocator completely. Or maybe at least replace it with something like the grappling hook from Quake.

                          Never enjoyed it in any of the older UT games and can't see how new players would either. IMO it just adds too much chaos.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Infra` View Post
                            Haha that's a pretty bold statement. UT has never been a casual game. It's a hardcore skill based arena shooter. There has always been casual players, and we politely refer to them as newbs. UT4 is not going to attract a lot of casual gamers who are not willing to take the game seriously and train to get better. This path of improving your skill leads to organized play. UT4 needs casual players, but it will only retain them if they find the game fun. What is fun? Being good and not dying every 5 seconds. How do you do that? By taking the game seriously and practising.
                            Gonna interject here and say: UT is the modded game that started modded games as far as I see it, they may not spend alot of time in the hardcore gametypes, but casual players can find plenty of **** to do that doesn't require 85% accuracy with reaction times lower than 90% of the population.

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                              #59
                              Good point raxxy, I didn't mean to use such a blanket statement. In addition to the competitive scene, UT99 had an extremely active modding community. The amount of custom content in UT99 is another reason it had so many players. Custom gametypes like MonsterHunt were extremely popular and attracted new/casual players. UT4 is going to need a healthy modding community in order to attract new players. I think Epic making UE4 free and also including the editor is a great step in that direction. Hopefully it brings out a lot veteran modders and new folks.
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                                #60
                                Cafe, brizz,
                                Thanks for your very interesting analysis of the TL Mechanism. all was said.

                                Brizz/Raxxy, i'm looking forward to test a new TL
                                Cunni, 37 years old, 16 years of UT, 90% CTF, 10% Duel
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