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    #31
    I had posted the following in the General Discussion thread before this subforum was created, and because it hasn't been moved yet, I'd like to quote it here

    Originally posted by PrimeIcarian
    1. Mixed gameplay gravitating to UT99, but including UT2004 mutators:

    The movement set could be a mix of 99's and 2004's, a lot like UT3 did but with some differences:
    -Single jumps by default, and as high as UT99's jumps
    -Double/Multi jumps could be activated by a mutator (weirdly a name I haven't read much in this forum, despite UT's vital need for them)
    -Wall Dodges by default
    -Dodge Jumping configurable in the Multi-Jump mutator, and unless dodge cooldown is disabled, the dodge jump CD lasts twice as long as the normal one
    -Dodging in ramps boosted without the need for dodge jumping
    -Weapon Balance from UT3 (the best imho)
    -Dodge cooldown from UT99 (Has a mutator that disables it for authentic 2004 gameplay)

    To defend my suggestion, I'd like to say:
    -UT2004's Double jumps and dodge jumps as they were are usually abused (a metagame-friendly abuse) to create viciously fast matches, it's fun, but it has a terrible backlash: the fast gameplay causes players to prefer distances rather than close combat, and added with the giant-scaled maps, it overpowers hitscan weapons (Shock Rifle, Lightning Gun, Sniper Rifle) and leading most players to abandon the rest of the arsenal (except for the Shield Gun). I believe this new UT should have a near-perfect weapon balance so it can expand the metagame possibilities, thus attracting FPS fans looking for variety in a time where everyone is saturated with CoD and its clones

    -Keeping a more grounded gameply will attract new players, as UT as it was in the 90s/2000s cannot appeal to contemporary FPS players anymore, that seek realism and action at the same time.

    2. All-new gameplay set, based on a Special Movements Key (Shift)

    The SMK is a personal suggestion of mine, as I always left hour-long matches because my fingers were hurting bad. Even as I don't expect it'll be applied to UT14 neither that people will approve it, I'd still like to share it too:

    -SMK + W = Sprint: as long as you sprint you get momentum and run faster (of course, it has a max speed, but it's a lot faster than dodging), but strafing would be drastically hindered while sprinting, steering would make you lose momentum, and you wouldn't be able to shoot. Jumping during a sprint makes you jump larger distances (mostly like a costy dodge-jump that can't be abused) but you still lose some momentum after that. For all that matter, stamina is infinite.
    -SMK + A/D = Dodge: I removed forward-dodge because it's the most difficult to make, and it's easily replaced by looking to the side and side-dodging forward. Works like any other dodge and its applications, like ramp-dodging.
    -SMK + S = Backflip: I don't know whether the player sees the backflip (it'd be really vertiginous) in first-person or simply a back-dodge.
    -Holding SMK in mid-air close to a ledge: Ledge grab and climb. Analogue to the double jump, as the player jumps twice to reach a higher ground. It would cost time and leave you vulnerable, but you can press Crouch to cancel it at any time and drop, and already having momentum before the jump makes it faster.

    Mixed Movements:
    Wall Dodge (No need to explain)
    Wall Sprint (Can be sidewards or upwards, consumes momentum instead of building it up)
    Slide: Sprint + Crouch (The more momentum you have, the longer you slide)
    The Matrix Flip: Upwards Wall Sprint + Back flip

    To defend my suggestion, I'd like to say:
    -It would remove the double-tapping needed for dodging, thus giving UT a more malleable movement (although many still defend the double-tapping and I don't blame them)
    -Makes the gameplay a lot more varied and appeasant to contemporary FPS players, while doing its best to keep the realism that attracts modern gamers so much
    -The momentum-based parkour is a whole new concept for UT, and theoretically, it doesn't need giant maps for sprinting and maneuvering, so it doesn't break the weapon balance.
    Regarding the other movements:
    -Hammer Jump: A MUST, but I'm not sure about Rocket Jump
    -Air Control: I don't know, it could be customizable as in Ut99
    -Team Boosting: Never used it before, but it must be cool for team games
    -Lift Jumping: Yes, DO IT!
    -Jumppads: Yes, it takes the player places where the lift jump doesn't.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
      Steve, I hope that you guys will invest deep thought in contemplating the following argument:
      "If it's not broken, why 'fix' it?"
      Pretty much this.
      And +1 for the b u n n y track idea

      Comment


        #33
        I'm not hugely fussed about the base movement. I know that the UT community wouldnt want to change much about it and while I dont like UT movement, the game has such excellent weapons that its hard to care too much.

        What I would like to see however, to make up for the movement somewhat, is weapon related movement. Different types of weapon jumps and boosts. Rocket jumps, shield jumps, impact hammer jumps, whatever, just give the game more of a vertical axis.

        It already has more of a vertical axis than most games, but for an arena shooter the game is very horizontal. Would love to see more rocket jumps and stuff.

        Comment


          #34
          • Running speed (in the past has been the same forward/back/strafing)

          -A decent combination of ALL UT. It cant be too fast, dodges have to be your primary form of movements.


          • Acceleration (how fast you change direction when moving)

          -I believe its been instant or close to it all of UT, should remain that way.

          • Air control (how much you can affect the direction of your movement while in the air)

          - The default for UT99 felt well, not as heavy as UT3 and not a floating balloon like UT2k, it was set at 30%.

          • Jump height

          -Simular to Air control, i believe the original had an happy medium between, float like a balloon high and stick to the ground of UT3. UT99 felt like you had some momentum in the air, but not stuck to the ground or flying sky high.

          • Gravity (affects how floaty the game feels. With higher gravity, even if the jump impulse is modified to result in the same jump height, you’ll spend less time in the air)

          -Same as the 2 above the classic just seems to have had a middle ground of this, in UT3 you feel as if the gravity is about to squish you every time you jump or dodge, in UT2K you feel as if you are playing on the moon at all time. A more sport like gravity was better, UT99 kinda had a simular gravity to quake 3 back in the days for how quickly you went back to the floor. It felt right.


          • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)

          -UT2k dodge floats too long and slow, UT3 dodge are effected too heavily by the point above (gravity) UT99 dodge was the smoothest of the 3, but im not against doing it slightly different. It needs to not feel like you are stuck on the ground (UT3). But at the same time it cant feel like you are filled with helium, a middle ground can be found.

          • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)

          -Pointless mechanic, make the jump higher or make the maps that does not required this. Unreachable area is for weapon boosting, like piston.

          • Wall dodge (ability to perform a dodge while in the air away from a nearby vertical surface)

          -Good mechanic, it can be improved upon, most likely a less float dodge, but not so heavy as UT3, will make it actually better.

          • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).

          -Staple to reach hidden power ups, offense in capture the flag and assault. If anything it should be improved upon, perhaps shock bubble boosting self damage reduction/allow pulse rifle primary to act as the quake 3 plasma gun, inflict minor damage, but allow to boost yourself across walls using the bounce of the primary explosion. It opens creativity.



          • Team boosting (ability to provide impact/rocket jumping benefits to teammates, who take no damage in normal teamgames)

          -Again staple for gametypes like CTF and Assault, Team damage is always on in TDM, so this is really only for these other 2. I believe this should also be improved upon and carefully crafted this time around. UT99 had alot of teamwork and strategy in this area and it was quickly slashed for UT2003 removing all of it. Perhaps this time it should be embraced and balanced withing the game to increase the general public teamwork. Team piston setting is a unique thing to UT99, something that should definitively be considered to come back. For anyone that does not know, with the secondary piston you could hit in a general angle on a map, load the primiary and have a team member dodge or jump, depending on what you wanted to achieve, and the player would be launched in the angle you selected with the alt fire. Setting up your launch, i believe if such a team and knowledge oriented mechanic should be balanced within the game for everyones benefit. It adds to the metagame and to the learning curve.


          Level Designer constrained movement features:

          • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)

          -UT2003 ones sometimes were too weird, UT2004 and UT99 angles were good enough for this. It cant be near vertical, it has to be a legitimate slop to not feel weird.

          • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)

          -Always been in UT, no reason to ever remove.

          • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)

          -Its map situational, i feel sometime its very overused to some mappers.

          We can also certainly discuss and consider new movement elements.

          ** For example, the movement mechanics in UT2003 and UT2004 biased the game toward hitscan weapons, and also caused scale issue with interior levels which had to be built to support large scale jumps. This isn’t meant to bash those movement mechanics, which were also a lot of fun, but to point out the consequences of the design.

          -I agree with you on this, the problem with the floaty gameplay is that it helps hit scan dominates the scene, even if UT2k hit scan weapons like the LG, were highly nerfed compared to the classic sniper rifle, which is an overpowered monster. The longer you are floating with the reduced air control, the easier the target. An happy medium should be reached between ut2k and ut3. UT99 was somewhere in between, but it does not need to be exact emulation. With the low latency and the power of the internet now, hit scan really does not need help, if anything projetiles needs to be the one considered for help the most. Hit scan should be limited in power to sniper rifle, shock beam, minigun, enforcer. Their power needs to be balanced so that they dont outright destroy everything, meaning they shouldnt have too much effect on players momentum. No lockdown, like UT99 used eventually, minimal bouncing on shock beams. Shock beam should never again be the primary hit scan gun (ut2k), this is sniper rifle territory. And this territory still shouldnt mean, beat everything at any ranges.
          Last edited by minteK; 05-13-2014, 08:33 AM.

          Comment


            #35
            Personally I think THIS serves as a good middle ground although dodgejump could definitely stand not be shorter. Air dodge might even work then, but I'm not completely sold on that yet.

            Also, UT1 has a very good foundation that you tried to replicate in UT3 but didn't entirely succeed in. UT3 feels to heavy and you have too much aircontrol. UT1/Ut2k4 aircontrol is pretty much perfect for a UT game imo, it allows for direction control but not let you escape a well placed rocket in your trajectory.

            Also, running speed should be the same in all directions - you should not be punished speedwise by running backwards since that in itself takes mapknowledge to pull off and would make it too easy to hunt down an escaping target.
            Dodging up ramps and edges (think Antalus) in UT2k4 feels right at home and should be kept along with the doublejump, but maybe let the extra jump give you bit more airtime instead of jumping higher. That way it will remain a way of "dodging" splash damage, but not almost entirely negate it as you can in 2k4.
            Last edited by dac; 05-13-2014, 08:50 AM.

            Comment


              #36
              My name is sLY and I currently compete in Pro Unreal MLUT tournaments. I also competed in OGL, Teamplay.net, TWL, and Proving Ground tournaments in the past. I played competitively in UT99, UT2k3, UT2k4, and the short lived UT3 (just 1v1 in that game). Here's my opinion from my experience in the competitive scene.

              • Running speed -- I'm indifferent. Whatever works best with the weapons.
              • Acceleration -- Again, indifferent. Whatever "feels" best.
              • Air control -- As long as the packet loss bug doesn't lock me into place like I'm playing Quake, I'm happy with either!
              • Jump height -- Probably something like UT99. Floaty = bad
              • Gravity -- See above.
              • Dodging -- I liked UT3's dodging. The dodge jump left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and was bad for map design.
              • Double jump -- I would prefer no double jump, but it's not the end of the world.
              • Wall dodge -- No harm in the wall dodge!
              • Impact/Rocket jumping -- Absolutely. This is a necessity.
              • Team boosting -- Absolutely, BUT allow server admins the option to ENABLE/DISABLE. In competitive CTF different leagues have different rules. The North American CTF community allowed this. Believe it or not, team launching is a lot harder than you would imagine in a competitive environment (especially when you have to load rockets).
              • Ramp boosting -- Yes, a great feature.
              • Lift jumping -- Yep!
              • Jumppads -- Yep!

              One thing missing from this is piston boot jumps (using jump boots and pistoning off a wall) and piston boot dodges (pistoning on ground while dodging for accelerated distance and speed). This was in UT99, 2k3, 2k4, and UT3. I just want to make sure the basic physics of allowing yourself to piston while also boot jumping remain in the game.

              Also, the translocator mechanics. I hope for the ability to telepunt, shock combo punt, etc... (and no limit this time). Also with the ability to effectively use as a weapon like in 99.

              I mention these two things because they somewhat have to do with movement/positioning yourself around a map.
              Last edited by sLY1838; 05-13-2014, 09:44 AM.

              Comment


                #37
                Theres definitely going to be alot of back and forth here, some give and take and some arguing I have played 2k4 and UT3 the most so those are what I have to base this off of.

                • Running speed -- I'm indifferent. Just not COD style sprint
                • Acceleration -- ^
                • Air control -- I felt like 2k4 had good air control.
                • Jump height -- Probably something between 99 and 2k4.
                • Gravity -- See above.
                • Dodging -- I prefer dodge jump for mechanics.
                • Double jump -- Yes please.
                • Wall dodge -- Yes please
                • Impact/Rocket jumping -- Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
                • Team boosting -- Yes or no, doesn't matter
                • Ramp boosting -- Yes.
                • Lift jumping -- Yep.
                • Jumppads -- Yep.

                I feel like I'd rather have 'too floaty' than 'too heavy'. It's UT not COD, so a little more floaty than too weighed down would be better in MY opinion. I'd prefer LESS floaty than 2k4 but not as heavy feeling as UT3 - if that makes sense?

                Comment


                  #38
                  So, how about making an official thread for each of these points, with the first post being a list of pros and cons for each side, plus the more interesting new ideas listed? Because just opinions are not worth a whole lot, when there is nothing to form an opinion from...
                  Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
                  My website, listing all my Unreal series mods and mutators

                  Comment


                    #39
                    General Movement:

                    • Dodging (fast low jump in any of the 4 cardinal movement directions, with a sudden deceleration on landing)
                    - The UT3 dodge height could be reduced a little bit, if we are going to have dodge jump(an usual one, not the one I propose below). If not, keep it like UT3 is good enough.

                    • Double jump (past titles only allowed the double jump to occur at the apex of the jump. UT2004 allowed double jump during dodge, UT3 did not/)
                    - Double jump during dodge, I think, could be replaced with a jump which mostly contribute horizontal speed(to the direction you are pressing), and reduce the time tolerance a little bit to make sure the max distance of a dodge jump is less than UT2K4 version, but with a slightly higher speed

                    • Impact/Rocket jumping (ability to jump extra high by jumping while point impact hammer down or using other splash/impulse providing weapon at cost of some health).
                    - I hope we can make hammer jump or RJ more user friendly, compared to Quake RJ, you need obviously more time to prepare a hammer jump, especially a high one, which is kinda interrupt the flow, and the self damage could be reduced a bit for a lower hammer jump (not for a high one), which means the self damage increase in a non-linear way, so lower hammer jump would be a popular one which can give you a comfortable way to reach those place slightly higher than a double jump, but for a much higher place, you either use jumpboots or a fully charged hammer jump which remains expensive so it won't be overused.
                    For RJ, I am not sure if we need it. If we really need a second weapon to do interesting jump, or push enemy away, I suggest we use Bio Gun, because the goo can stick to anywhere, and create additional jump opportunities like a wall goo jump, or a jumppad goo jump, etc. And it is very UT-ish!


                    Level Designer constrained movement features:
                    • Ramp boosting (ability to scale a near vertical surface by dodging into it, possible on any near vertical surface in UT2003, and only on LD permitted surfaces in UT2004)
                    -Yes! I am a big fan of ramp boosting or ramp dodge.
                    -The only concern I have, is we need to have AI support. I mean bot should also use and prefer to use this trick, which will make the solo match very fun.


                    • Lift jumping (taking advantage of lift momentum to get a boost to your jump at the top of the lift’s path)
                    -Yes, if possible, make horizontal moving platform that can give you extra horizontal speed if you jump or dodge, this way we can create some very original movement elements in the map.

                    • Jumppads (provide a long distance jump to a specific destination)
                    -I really like UT3 jumppad, with customizable air control, it is perfect. But one thing annoys me is that we can not easily replace the visual and the ambient hum sound.
                    -Technically I wish we can choose between cylinder collision and box collision for the jumppad. I remember in Quake they use box collision (I could be wrong, after all it's been so many years), and sometimes it fits the level design purpose much better than a cylinder
                    -Oh, one thing I don't like about UT3 jumppad is, very difficult to use it to make a really long jump, the curve will miss the target if the jump time is too short, basically it won't just boost the speed accordingly to a point that make sure you can land at the target location. So for a really long jump, I have to make a very curvy line and it could do landing damage to the player which is not welcome.
                    [WIP]: DM-Deck(Remake) | DM-DeepBlue | DM-Peak(Remake)

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                    Comment


                      #40
                      There were thousands of die-hard UT99 fans.
                      There were hundreds of die-hard UT2K4 fans.
                      There was one die-hard UT3 fan.

                      The movement, mechanics, and scale of the original Unreal Tournament was superb. Why elaborate on something that worked so well? It was simplistic in nature. It was easy for beginners to learn, yet difficult to master via competitive play - much like the Quake series.

                      This is simply my own opinion.
                      www.mouserpad.com

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by de`pain View Post
                        There were thousands of die-hard UT99 fans.
                        There were hundreds of die-hard UT2K4 fans.
                        There was one die-hard UT3 fan.
                        LOL, well put!

                        On topic, I would love to see the running speed a little bit faster than UT99. Also, the deceleration when landing a dodge would be best left out. I've tried this in mutators before and it feels so much more fluid. Finally, I think the delay between dodges could atleast be reduced, if not removed completely. No dodge jumps or double jumps please, because of scaling issues mentioned 1000 times already.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          UT99 movement were the best (simple and fast), UT3 the worst (slow). I'm a diehard ut99 fan and also play the bunnytrack mod alot.

                          So for all the points in the main post id say "like ut99". So no doublejumping in the base form, a mod would be fine. No wall dodging. yes to ramp boosting, team boosting, rocket/impact(and other weapons) jumping, lift jumping.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            If people are so against double jumping, it should simply be a mutator.
                            History: UT99 (2003 - 2007; 2009 - Now) UT2k4: (2005-2007), UT3 (2008-2009)
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                            Comment


                              #44
                              My input will be based on UT3 since that is the most recent version of UT I have played

                              General Movement:
                              • Running speed: significantly faster is better.
                              • Acceleration faster
                              • Air control this is good in UT3
                              • Jump height higher please. The average NFL player can vertical jump 40 inches. I think for UNREAL 48 inches is legit
                              • Gravity slightly less but not to the degree of 2k4
                              • Dodging should dodge a bit farther 3-4 feet
                              • Double jump if regular jump is increased and dodge jump is added I am fine with getting rid of double jump. Dodge jump should move a player 6-8 feet horizontally, 5 feet vertically
                              • Wall dodge YES! 4-6 feet
                              • Impact/Rocket jumping YES! 2 rocket jumps possible, if a player has 100 health a rocket jump inflicts -45 health
                              • Team boosting sure, why not

                              Level Designer constrained movement features:
                              • Ramp boosting ABSOLUTELY
                              • Lift jumping ABSOLUTELY
                              • Jumppads ABSOLUTELY
                              Last edited by sanch3z; 05-13-2014, 12:16 PM.
                              DANG YOU UT2K4 KIDS! GET OFF MY LAWN!

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I Personally would like to see Wall Running.

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