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Great Rescalening: a "new" movement base

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    #76
    Originally posted by biggamer21 View Post
    Double Edit: I will say you're right with the ctf-quick being more difficult but it's still possible. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing , the current values feel way too floaty.
    One thing to keep in mind is the current lifts/maps are tuned for the current base movement - gravity* and everything else that goes with it. If the movement changed lift jumps could be adjusted if required. Not difficult and if everything else is "better" a reasonable concession.

    *don't crucify me I am not sure on the terminology here.
    Posts are about duel unless otherwise specified. ut duel shortcomings | What is timing? | dm-twentyseven

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      #77
      I tried both examples and they are indeed still doable, though you need a good dodge to make it work or do it from slightly further up the lift than you could normally do them from. Even then within a few tries I could do both of them 100% of the time so it's hardly at trickjump level. This was without moving, if you do keep moving while on the lift and do a running dodge you will very easily make it. It was easier than dodging without moving on the default movement.

      As far as adjusting lifts, I think they need some work anyway. They seem to require very precise timing to get the most of out them. Even with the default UT4 movement you constantly see people failing the one on DM-Outpost23 from below sniper to belt and the one on CTF-Titanpass to the flag for example. If I had to guess it's a case of the lift slowing down too much at the top, meaning that if you wait too long you don't get the full speed anymore. If you don't wait long enough you often dodge into the lift's wall, giving you a relatively small window of opportunity.

      Originally posted by fb.pb View Post
      I didn't mind it too much just running around with it. The issue I had was the somewhat frustrating delay between dodges. I again found myself sliding after every dodge just to make up the delay time. I also I think it would be really easy to hit people with the weapons as they are now.
      Well that's half the reason for doing this, to find out if giving the movement UT99 properties still makes the weapons feel like they do now. Everyone already thinks they need adjusting (nerfing mostly) anyway, the question is whether they need that because the movement is so different from movement in previous games or if its the weapons that are so different. If it is weapons then what about them is it? In general they have very similar damage, speed, spread, splash radius and a lot of them actually have a lower ROF so they shouldn't be more lethal, yet they are.

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        #78
        Another big reason people fail lift jumps is that the netcode for them is really not optimal yet.. I'd rather they were like the lifts UT99 NewNet used in some builds, where they wait until your character on the server steps on the lift before going up, and that way the client and server lifts are always synced up rather than it being a warpy mess when you lift jump/dodge. Worst of all the current implementation is ping dependent, so even if you do master the timing of it on one server, you're going to have to re-adjust on another.

        As for some weapons feedback, I haven't played enough games yet with the mutator to say for sure but I think the Flak is still slightly OP even with this movement - in comparison to both UT99 reg and NewNet Flak. I think it's due to the damage, since UT99 NewNet seemed to (from what I could feel) have very aggressive damage falloff on the shards (before this was implemented, Flak was considered very OP in NewNet), and in UT99 reg you obviously had to lead your shots which made it harder to hit with.

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          #79
          Good point Joel.

          About the flak, lower damage and higher rof with a tighter spread would be more satisfying. The fire rate is one shot per second in UT3/4, whereas in UT it was 1.5/s, a 50% difference.

          This flak acts very clunky and feels compensated with higher damage(stuff like bounce/spread/center shard etc too) due to the slower rof, why they decided to change that in UT3 is anyone's guess.
          Last edited by biggamer21; 12-19-2015, 11:20 PM.

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            #80
            Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
            Another big reason people fail lift jumps is that the netcode for them is really not optimal yet.. I'd rather they were like the lifts UT99 NewNet used in some builds, where they wait until your character on the server steps on the lift before going up, and that way the client and server lifts are always synced up rather than it being a warpy mess when you lift jump/dodge. Worst of all the current implementation is ping dependent, so even if you do master the timing of it on one server, you're going to have to re-adjust on another.
            Netcode definitely plays a role here. It tries to make the lift move the instant you step on it when you really haven't yet as far as the server can see. The same thing goes for reaching the top.

            As for some weapons feedback, I haven't played enough games yet with the mutator to say for sure but I think the Flak is still slightly OP even with this movement - in comparison to both UT99 reg and NewNet Flak. I think it's due to the damage, since UT99 NewNet seemed to (from what I could feel) have very aggressive damage falloff on the shards (before this was implemented, Flak was considered very OP in NewNet), and in UT99 reg you obviously had to lead your shots which made it harder to hit with.
            That could be it. UT99 Flak by default doesn't actually have any damage falloff. The falloff on it in UT4 almost plays no real role in how lethal people perceive it to be at the moment, it doesn't get activated until well into mid range.

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              #81
              Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
              UT99 NewNet seemed to (from what I could feel) have very aggressive damage falloff on the shards
              This is correct. It was actually probably a bit too aggressive but it was definitely a step in the right direction.
              Creator of NewNet for UT99

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                #82
                Was refreshing to see this talked about on the stream today, good job Stolid and Zaccubus

                It really makes the game feel more fluid controlled and responsive.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by biggamer21 View Post
                  Was refreshing to see this talked about on the stream today, good job Stolid and Zaccubus

                  It really makes the game feel more fluid controlled and responsive.
                  Yeah, they said they won't implement it in the next build because they don't want to change too many variables at the same time, but hopefully they will try it officially in some build eventually It would work well with the changes the next build too, they raised eyeheight which will probably make the game feel really slow.

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                    #84
                    Up

                    Has someone installed stolid' s mutator in a HUB ? I d like to test it for real. Thank you all.
                    Cunni, 37 years old, 16 years of UT, 90% CTF, 10% Duel
                    https://www.twitch.tv/cunni_ut
                    http://plays.tv/u/Cunni
                    Discord PUG Community

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by Cunni View Post
                      Up

                      Has someone installed stolid' s mutator in a HUB ? I d like to test it for real. Thank you all.
                      would be great!

                      Comment


                        #86
                        I don't know of any EU hub that has it available unfortunately. There are only a handful of server admins that have hubs running, so you'd probably have to contact them directly to request it. Even then one single request might not convince them to bother doing it.

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                          #87
                          Oleq / rAge, we rely on you
                          Cunni, 37 years old, 16 years of UT, 90% CTF, 10% Duel
                          https://www.twitch.tv/cunni_ut
                          http://plays.tv/u/Cunni
                          Discord PUG Community

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                            #88
                            Yeah, not sure of any EU hubs running it but there is Seniors Nirvana in the US that has it.

                            As for some more feedback - the dodge reset time feels slightly longer than UT99. I always miss dodges in UT4 after playing UT99 for a bit, and I even measured it by counting frames in a recording and it seems like in your mutator it always takes ~33ms longer or so for the reset between dodges. It's an inaccurate test but might be something to look into for the next version (which I assume will be needed for the new build as it's using a different engine version).

                            Also, are rocket jumps higher to compensate for the gravity increase? I think in v2 piston jumps are, but rocket jumps aren't. As far as I remember at least.

                            Oh yeah, and one more thing - it seems there are some issues with the crouch height, in fact with this mutator you can't crouch off the minigun bridge and drop down to belt on ASDF through that gap. (You can still slide off) I assume it's due to the flat collision on the bottom as opposed to the capsule, as the crouch height wasn't changed AFAIK. Could try to fix this by making crouch height 99? Not sure if that would break anything else but it seems unlikely.

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                              #89
                              Originally posted by Barktooth View Post
                              Yeah, not sure of any EU hubs running it but there is Seniors Nirvana in the US that has it.

                              As for some more feedback - the dodge reset time feels slightly longer than UT99. I always miss dodges in UT4 after playing UT99 for a bit, and I even measured it by counting frames in a recording and it seems like in your mutator it always takes ~33ms longer or so for the reset between dodges. It's an inaccurate test but might be something to look into for the next version (which I assume will be needed for the new build as it's using a different engine version).
                              That's good to know. The way dodge reset time works in UT4 is different from any previous UT, so there no simple number I can copy over. If you (or someone else) could try to do some really precise measurements of this that would help a lot. So record the gap between dodges several times for both games at the highest fps you can (preferably not shadowplay as it has variable framerate) and average those frame counts. To account for any animation and eye bobbing effect it would probably be even better if you record a couple of sequences of 5-10 dodges instead of single ones. The dodges should last the same amount of time in UT99 and with this mutator so you can get a much better measurement if you know how long it takes to do 10 consecutive dodges in each game.

                              Also, are rocket jumps higher to compensate for the gravity increase? I think in v2 piston jumps are, but rocket jumps aren't. As far as I remember at least.
                              Indeed. The piston jumps momentum (and health cost) are part of the character properties, not part of the hammer. I hadn't looked at doing other weapon jumps yet, but I can adjust the weight of the player to compensate for the gravity in the next version so that everything works the same again.

                              Oh yeah, and one more thing - it seems there are some issues with the crouch height, in fact with this mutator you can't crouch off the minigun bridge and drop down to belt on ASDF through that gap. (You can still slide off) I assume it's due to the flat collision on the bottom as opposed to the capsule, as the crouch height wasn't changed AFAIK. Could try to fix this by making crouch height 99? Not sure if that would break anything else but it seems unlikely.
                              True, the crouch height isn't changed so is almost certainly due to the collision shape change. I could check at which height this will become possible again. If the change isn't too much I will put that in too, though simply matching it with UT99 height doesn't necessarily make this work. If I have to lower it by a large amount it could make the crouch size excessively small and too much of an advantage as far as making yourself harder to hit, but I don't suspect that.

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                                #90
                                This movement tweaks recieved to much positive feedback, why it isnt official yet?? I know epic team is busy but this is community game. Lets get this into game asap! ))

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