Great Rescalening: a "new" movement base

[Infiadux]

That's good to know. The way dodge reset time works in UT4 is different from any previous UT, so there no simple number I can copy over. If you (or someone else) could try to do some really precise measurements of this that would help a lot. So record the gap between dodges several times for both games at the highest fps you can (preferably not shadowplay as it has variable framerate) and average those frame counts. To account for any animation and eye bobbing effect it would probably be even better if you record a couple of sequences of 5-10 dodges instead of single ones. The dodges should last the same amount of time in UT99 and with this mutator so you can get a much better measurement if you know how long it takes to do 10 consecutive dodges in each game.


Indeed. The piston jumps momentum (and health cost) are part of the character properties, not part of the hammer. I hadn't looked at doing other weapon jumps yet, but I can adjust the weight of the player to compensate for the gravity in the next version so that everything works the same again.


True, the crouch height isn't changed so is almost certainly due to the collision shape change. I could check at which height this will become possible again. If the change isn't too much I will put that in too, though simply matching it with UT99 height doesn't necessarily make this work. If I have to lower it by a large amount it could make the crouch size excessively small and too much of an advantage as far as making yourself harder to hit, but I don't suspect that.

OK, I finally figured this out. My auto-dodging AutoHotKey script just didn't want to work in UT99, so I tried Logitech Gaming Software and after a few headaches figured out that if you put a delay between the depress and release events of the directional keys UT99 actually recognizes the input. This might be important for figuring out the reset value, so here is the macro I used:

Press down directional key
Wait 5ms
Release directional key
Wait 5ms

And loop that indefinitely. 1ms seemed to cause inconsistencies, I guess UT99's engine can't handle that much input.


I recorded a video at 120FPS, and here are the results:

729 frames in UT4 for 7 dodges and first frame of the 8th, ~56 frames between each dodge (56 55 56 56 56 57 56)
649 frames in UT99 for 7 dodges and first frame of the 8th, ~43.4 frames between each dodge (43 43 43 44 43 44 44)
~49 frames dodge duration for both games

Soo the reset is about 105ms longer in UT4 calculating from average frames between each dodge, and about 95ms if just counting overall frames. Not sure which one is more accurate.. The videos didn't come out very smooth, so I'm wondering if I should have used 60FPS instead - my PC is from 2007 so it might not be able to handle recording 120FPS smoothly.

Edit: wow, this is very strange - I just tested UT4 standard movement and it's ~42 frames between each dodge, only slightly faster than UT99! I guess most of the perception of UT4 having lower dodge reset time comes from the long dodge duration making it much easier to time dodges, while in UT99 it's a lot harder due to the shorter duration. After running around a bit I was able to dodge almost as fast as the dodgebot in UT99 (though not quite) and I never even knew it was possible to dodge so often.

This movement tweaks recieved to much positive feedback, why it isnt official yet?? I know epic team is busy but this is community game. Lets get this into game asap! ))

Yeah, would be great to have this in an official build. Epic looked at it before but they said it's not in the next build because they didn't want to change too many major things at once - the 15% player scale increase and a big movement change. https://youtu.be/zGRUNwr7gJo?t=1m18s
Hopefully this means they will try it once they figure out the scale stuff

[tigerclaw]

Hey Stolid

Would it be possible to upload the uasset for your character?

I'd like to tweak and feedback on it and use it as a base for my weapon balance mod

IMO it's the best movement yet, 99% due to it being much cleaner and more accurate than vanilla or other instances

It works and feels nice for ground movement but i think it could be tweaked for UT4, for example for walldodging it's much less forgiving than vanilla UT4 movement

I've looked at adding in a walk mechanic via blueprint, is this something you want to look at? Epic have seemed quite reluctant to add this in so far

[Stolid]

OK, I finally figured this out...

Well, that's quite surprising.
I actually did almost exactly what you did with the script to get to the current dodge delay in the mutator. I just didn't record a video since my PC is also very old and I don't trust it so I timed it manually. I would've been accurate enough with it to notice if it were this different so I think I just compared the wrong numbers at some point.

Just for the sake of it, could you try doing this again but without the script, just manually trying to get as close as possible to the minimal delay? To account for your higher inaccuracy you'll have to redo it a couple of times to get a good average.
I think there might still be an effect caused by the one tap dodge functionality that is making the dodge rate higher than it would otherwise be, at least in more realistic circumstances.



@tigerclaw
I still want to iterate on this version for a bit, I don't think it's a good idea to have two versions of nearly the same thing floating around.
Also, I want to see if I can make this work in a robust way with other gametypes/mods. Some will have their own pawn they use so a mutator that does the same could break it and prevent you from playing mods with your weapon balance mutator completely. At least if there are separate modules you can test the things that don't break.

In what sense do you find the walldodging to be less forgiving? If it doesn't need tons of mantling or have some other downsides I'm quite willing to tweak things so that it is exactly as forgiving.

Adding walk would be quite problematic, there is no way to make keybinds yet as far as I'm aware so the only option would be to possibly override a current movement function that has a distinct bind and animation tied to it already like crouch. Obviously you wouldn't have crouch anymore then.
Even with doing that you'd need a walk animation, simply slowing down the run animation would look really bad and I haven't messed around with animations at all.

[Infiadux]

Well, that's quite surprising.
I actually did almost exactly what you did with the script to get to the current dodge delay in the mutator. I just didn't record a video since my PC is also very old and I don't trust it so I timed it manually. I would've been accurate enough with it to notice if it were this different so I think I just compared the wrong numbers at some point.

Just for the sake of it, could you try doing this again but without the script, just manually trying to get as close as possible to the minimal delay? To account for your higher inaccuracy you'll have to redo it a couple of times to get a good average.
I think there might still be an effect caused by the one tap dodge functionality that is making the dodge rate higher than it would otherwise be, at least in more realistic circumstances.

Alright, took me a few tries but this is the most consistent two runs I could get:

627 frames for 6 dodges and first frame of the 7th in UT99; delays between dodges: 52, 56, 56, 55, 58, 53, 53 (54.71 avg)
645 frames for 6 dodges and first frame of the 7th UT4; delays between dodges: 63, 57, 59, 60, 60, 58, 57 (59.14 avg)

Interesting, in comparison the difference between manual and script run in UT4 is not as big as in UT99.

I suspect there might be some funkiness going on like being able to queue dodges in UT4 but not in UT99. Say you tap the directional key once while the dodge reset still isn't up, and then tap it a second time AFTER the dodge reset time is up. In UT4 you would dodge, but maybe in UT99 you wouldn't? At least that's how it feels like to me, if I double tap faster (rather than try to time it better) I can get better results in UT99.

That could explain why the script is so much more effective, as it has only a 10ms delay between the two taps, while it's harder to double tap faster than 80ms by hand.

[Stolid]

Indeed, I figured that was exactly what was going on.
This brings it almost back again to them having the same delay. Going by the total time UT99's delay is exactly 25ms shorter, down from the fairly substantial 100ms. Apparently I'm not entirely going crazy yet as far as feel/timing between UT99 and the mutator.

Are you using the default double tap time (0.250) by the way? It probably affects the minimum delay time in UT4, which could be definitely be considered a bug if not a straight exploit.

[Infiadux]

Indeed, I figured that was exactly what was going on.
This brings it almost back again to them having the same delay. Going by the total time UT99's delay is exactly 25ms shorter, down from the fairly substantial 100ms. Apparently I'm not entirely going crazy yet as far as feel/timing between UT99 and the mutator.

Are you using the default double tap time (0.250) by the way? It probably affects the minimum delay time in UT4, which could be definitely be considered a bug if not a straight exploit.

I don't know what I'm using in UT99 (can't even find that setting even though I swear it used to be in there somewhere) but I am indeed using 0.25 in UT4. Does that really affect the minimum delay?

And yeah, it did feel strange that it was a whole 100ms off. Just running around in the two games it felt like it was around 30ms slower in UT4. 25 seems like a much more reasonable number to adjust it by.

[tigerclaw]

UT1s distance and speed values scale at different levels to UT4, you can't just scale them both to say... 2.3 and they fit perfectly

There's also the problem of air/fall speed, it's A LOT faster in UT1 compared to UT4, even after a decent gravity increase

Gravity alone won't fix this, the only way i could get them to match on a distance scaled map with a correctly scaled model was with a gamespeed increase or 5-10% depending on the scale you used

Unless there's a way to increase air speed or trick it somehow then you'll never get rid of the floaty air play

The issue with walldodging is fairly simple, i can use it fine however it's a bit sharper/faster than vanilla and you can't adjust easily in the air, which makes it harder to miss when trying to walldodge and land into a certain area

You have to adjust your dodge very accurately when you're dodging as you don't have enough room whilst in the air to forgive more than a minor directional miss, is what i mean

There are other issues, tbh it's great but it still falls into the same traps we've been stuck in because of the bloated player size, like the high run speeds and crazy yet strangely innefective strafing

[tigerclaw]

If you don't want to release the asset that's fine, do you have a mod i can use to measure UE4 speeds and distances?

I was using a HUD from Thomson but it's not compatible with the newer editor version i think

It's a pain in the ***, but i can throw together a scaled model and tweak it to match UT1 by look and "feel" by about 97%, i've gotten a look at the movement changes from this last year and can see which settings remove the clumsy movement from the game, i'd just rather not have to scale EVERYTHING by eye

Unless i really have to lol

[Stolid]

I don't know what I'm using in UT99 (can't even find that setting even though I swear it used to be in there somewhere) but I am indeed using 0.25 in UT4. Does that really affect the minimum delay?

And yeah, it did feel strange that it was a whole 100ms off. Just running around in the two games it felt like it was around 30ms slower in UT4. 25 seems like a much more reasonable number to adjust it by.

It shouldn't affect it in UT99, but the value is in your User.ini listed as DodgeClickTime.

If my guess to how it works is correct it means that you can have a larger gap between your double taps as your double tap time goes up. It could allow for easier timing as you simply have more time to perform it.
You'd have to compare ~0.15 with 0.5 to be sure it has any effect in the real world.

[Stolid]

UT1s distance and speed values scale at different levels to UT4, you can't just scale them both to say... 2.3 and they fit perfectly

There's also the problem of air/fall speed, it's A LOT faster in UT1 compared to UT4, even after a decent gravity increase

Gravity alone won't fix this, the only way i could get them to match on a distance scaled map with a correctly scaled model was with a gamespeed increase or 5-10% depending on the scale you used

Unless there's a way to increase air speed or trick it somehow then you'll never get rid of the floaty air play

The issue with walldodging is fairly simple, i can use it fine however it's a bit sharper/faster than vanilla and you can't adjust easily in the air, which makes it harder to miss when trying to walldodge and land into a certain area

You have to adjust your dodge very accurately when you're dodging as you don't have enough room whilst in the air to forgive more than a minor directional miss, is what i mean

There are other issues, tbh it's great but it still falls into the same traps we've been stuck in because of the bloated player size, like the high run speeds and crazy yet strangely innefective strafing

Why wouldn't distance and speed values scale the same way? It might not look the same compared to a map or compared to the character size, but as far as movement they compare perfectly. Fall speed because of gravity or gamespeed is exactly the same too, it is just an acceleration so whether you change the v or the t in the equation doesn't matter as long as the a matches.

All dodging is faster so I guess you could say you have less time to adjust than you used to, but that isn't just with walldodges. Without increasing the air control past previous games or slowing dodging back down there isn't much to do about that.

If you don't want to release the asset that's fine, do you have a mod i can use to measure UE4 speeds and distances?

I was using a HUD from Thomson but it's not compatible with the newer editor version i think

It's a pain in the ***, but i can throw together a scaled model and tweak it to match UT1 by look and "feel" by about 97%, i've gotten a look at the movement changes from this last year and can see which settings remove the clumsy movement from the game, i'd just rather not have to scale EVERYTHING by eye

Unless i really have to lol

I don't have a particular mod, but you can use "Showdebug physics" in console to give you some information like coordinates and velocities etc. It's far from ideal though so I mostly used it as a check after I changed something. I did most of my scaling by using simple physics and the source code of the games.

[tigerclaw]

If i had to guess i'd say that UT1 runs at over 100% gamespeed by default and 400uus isn't the run speed

Truth by told i have no idea, i just know that scaling a map to x and then running from a > b at x scaled value takes a different amount of time than it should do

The easiest way to scale this is to get the run speed right(ish) then multiply it compared to UT1s values, like a moving dodge is 1.8x run speed, standing dodge is 1.5x(horizontal velocity

Jump and Z dodge velocity are easy, since if you don't increase gravity then all you need to do is set this to match the scaled Z height needed

Once you have this roughly matched out then a dodge length and velocity should scale match up from UT1 > UT4

So what matches is the run speed relative to distance, then the dodge and jump length and heights will also match when scaled up

Air control, accel, decel and apparently a few other settings also mess with this scale

Then you have the FUN job of matching air and ground control to UT1, which is FUN believe me

I might be wrong about what scales up incorrectly, there's something which scales up wrong although it's been over a year since i last messed around with UE4 so i might be remembering which it was wrong

There's a lot you're missing man, you need to compare the two by eye and have sharp senses and know how to test it properly to really see

[tigerclaw]

And the fall speed values may be the same, but it's not the same

Even deck16 vs decktest(smaller than deck16 and lower falls) shows this easily, when you wall or creep off a ledge you fall faster in UT1 vs UT4

Air accel seems to effect this at the start, as does gravity as a whole - unless the fallspeed parameter can be edited as a whole then it'll stay like that

I'll look for something which might help

There are a ton of interesting little things which make the difference between the two games, some you could call "features" rather than bugs

FOR EXAMPLE - in UT1 when you dodge you need to tap both keys whilst on the ground for it to register, in UT4 you can tap the first key at any time and only have to tap the 2nd key whilst on the ground(or within the min walldodge distance for walldodges) and it will register as a dodge so long as it's within the dodgeclick time

What this means is that you can jump onto say a box or a ledge and dodge straight off it with minimal delay you can also do something like key>jump>key and walldodge this way, rather than jump>key>key, people were using this at the start to boost dodge which is how i noticed it

The land speed reset, land bob offset(i've probably named both of these wrong idk) and the camera height all make a huge difference to how the game feels compared to how the game plays, 2 of the 3 can be edited to match but the camera offset is animated differently in UT4 compared to UT1

Animated in an uglier way... but you can sort of make it work

I don't want to "match" UT1 values to UT4 tbh, there's no point in doing this, UT1's movement when you look at it's accuracy and how good it feels from noob to absolute amazeballs pro blows most games out of the water

Values aside, UT4 doesn't come close to comparing and there's lots of little things which we really can't fix, only Epic can fix them and unless they plan to start recruiting div1 skill BT players(or timbur) anytime soon then they won't even realise any of these issues exist

[Stolid]

UT99 by default (hardcore) indeed doesn't run at normal speed, it is time dilated. My mutator completely accounts for this though.
There's no real way to start off by getting the run speed "right". The engine uses different size units, so right relative to what? A map, which one? The character height? The character width? The eye height?
Maps won't change, so you can't really make dodges shorter or longer meaning you are hard limited to what you can change run speed to. For this reason I took the running dodge distance as the standard and then worked my way back to scale dodge speed, run speed, jump height, eye height, gravity etc to have the same relative scale.

Yes, you fall faster in UT99 than in UT4, but you fall at exactly the same speed using my mutator, which means about 10% faster taking about 10% less time. (This doesn't equal 10% higher gravity.)

I haven't really messed with the bobbing, but other than that if there's anything I'm missing you've yet to tell me specifically, let alone demonstrate it. Without that there's really nothing I can go on as far as changing anything.

[HexxuSz0r]

can anyone who is playing stolid's mutator report, if hitscan and rocket hit rate is lower due to dodge being snappier ? i was thinking we can not really resolve all the problems only tweaking guns, it has a great lot to do with how movement interacts and current dodge is a tad bit slower and long, just wondering if stolid's values have any positive direction apart from being more fun and feeling at home.

[Infiadux]

Is there going to be a new version for the current build? Or are there problems preventing one from being released?