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Movement Feedback Build 2014-05-30

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    Movement Feedback Build 2014-05-30

    Here is my feedback on the movement after all the commits today. This is based solely on the UTDMGameMode which means SteveUTCharacter with all the default settings. The idea of this thread is to give some feedback that may be helpful in development based on the current build. I won't be arguing about any missing mechanics in here. I am, however, happy to discuss my thoughts on any of my feedback.

    Build 2014-05-30
    • 800 movement speed on Test maps A-C feels good. Deck feels like it has not been scaled properly (it feels slightly too large)
    • The speedup still does not feel good. It happens too slow so perception bias kicks in: You can never really tell you are speeding up. As I've said before, the only time you notice the speedup is when it ends (Case: when you finish a dodge out of the speedup). It makes you feel like you got stuck on the ground and can't move for far too long. Sitting duck syndrome applies here probably. The other problem is that because of how slow you speed up, dodge spam is still the fastest way to move around,a dn since it feels consistent and controllable I imagine it is all people would do with the current settings.
    • The dodge feels good, but it might feel great if the arc was nudged down just barely. It feels a little floaty.
    • Gravity feels good. Jumps feel right and dodges land well.
    • Small detail, but you can dodge by pressing LRL in quick succession. Pretty sure that shouldn't happen
    • Boost dodge is still there. It doesn't feel terrible but it does let you exploit a couple of pickup places in C. I am not entirely opposed to boost dodge as long as the arc is brought down a bit or maybe have the tail of it drop off faster (so you can get higher but not much distance).
    • Mantling feels decent in this build. It does seem to convert slightly too much of your momentum still, though. And I am still of the opinion that the penalty should be a little more harsh (like stopping you for 0.02 seconds and then bouncing you on the ledge. I tried for about 10 minutes to accidentally mantle and I couldn't make it happen. That's a good sign.
    • Wall dodge feels GREAT. You can tell it's happening and it only gives you about a 10% boost compared to a normal dodge. That is a good feeling right now.
    • This comment may be useless, but it feels like the response time when you press a direction is just barely too slow. It sort of makes it feel like you are accelerating into the speed instead of immediately moving. I dunno, it just feels wrong slightly. This was a criticism people had in UT3.
    • Mantling seems to activate when you are not moving. I don't think Mantling should work unless you are currently moving.
    • You can currently dodge out of a mantle to immediately get on a ledge. Doesn't seem right.
    • The dodge delay feels pretty spot on to me.

    I do have to re-iterate that I am not very fond of the speedup mechanic. I think for it to be as effective as it needs to be, the speedup needs to happen faster. But that runs the risk of making the dodge redundant or useless. I think for it be as balanced as it needs to be, it needs to stay where it is or slow down even more. But that runs the risk of making it completely useless. Right now I think it's a bit on the line as far as being useless because dodge spam still feels like the fastest and most consistent way to move right now.

    Edit: Here is a video I made showing a bunch of the movement and shooting some of the weapons. The first map is Test 'C' and the second is, well... you know

    Last edited by Sir_Brizz; 05-31-2014, 05:04 AM.
    HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
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    #2
    I was under the impression that the SteveUTCharacter was based off the older NickUTCharacter prototype from about a week ago and therefore was redundant? For example some of the bugs like boost dodge and infinite wall dodge that have been subsequently fixed in the NickUTCharacter4 version still exist in the SteveUTCharacter. For movement feedback It's probably better to focus on the most recent prototype which appears to be NickUTCharacter4?
    "Gilanguar"

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Sir_Brizz View Post
      The speedup still does not feel good. It happens too slow so perception bias kicks in: You can never really tell you are speeding up. As I've said before, the only time you notice the speedup is when it ends (Case: when you finish a dodge out of the speedup). It makes you feel like you got stuck on the ground and can't move for far too long. Sitting duck syndrome applies here probably. The other problem is that because of how slow you speed up, dodge spam is still the fastest way to move around,a dn since it feels consistent and controllable I imagine it is all people would do with the current settings.
      Two more ideas to try to help here:


      Lower eye-height during sprint-forward, proportional to acceleration. The basis for this is in the body's natural reaction of pitching forward when accelerating into a sprint, and then gradually raising back toward full height over time as acceleration decreases and the body approaches full sprint speed.

      I think this will help the player "feel the sprint" right away, partly just because of the lower-to-the-ground perspective, but mainly because its effect — unlike the speedup itself — is instantaneous, not gradual.


      Adjust FOV during sprint-forward, again proportional to acceleration. A slight decrease of FOV may be just a corollary of the previous point (in that the pitched-forward head/eyes are not just –Z but +X also); on the other hand, IIRC increasing FOV is something other games do to communicate "sprint mode" to the player — though I'm not so clear what basis this has, if any, in reality.


      Again it should be emphasized that this whole idea-spiel hinges on the sprint's acceleration not being a simple constant factor, but rather front-loaded: a burst to some initial value followed by a linear decrease to zero, so that velocity is parabolic over time until the full sprint speed is reached.




      @Brizz: thanks for spinning a new thread for the latest build instead of burying it 600 posts deep into the original prototype thread … much easier/saner to follow along.

      Comment


        #4
        Here is a video I made of the current build. (edit: put it in the first post too...)

        Last edited by Sir_Brizz; 05-31-2014, 05:03 AM.
        HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
        BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Gilanguar View Post
          I was under the impression that the SteveUTCharacter was based off the older NickUTCharacter prototype from about a week ago and therefore was redundant? For example some of the bugs like boost dodge and infinite wall dodge that have been subsequently fixed in the NickUTCharacter4 version still exist in the SteveUTCharacter. For movement feedback It's probably better to focus on the most recent prototype which appears to be NickUTCharacter4?
          Nick's prototypes are prototypes. The closest thing to "official movement" there is is SteveUTCharacter. It's the default movement in UTGameMode and UTDMGameMode. He has been tweaking values trying to get a good feel outside of Nick's stuff, so I will continue to comment on Steve's movement until they say we should do otherwise.
          HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
          BeyondUnreal - Liandri Archives [An extensive repository of Unreal lore.] - Join us on IRC [irc.utchat.com - #beyondunreal]

          Comment


            #6
            Ok tested and made some changes

            air control 0.535
            gravity 2.25
            dodge inpulse horizontal 1375
            jump z velocity 775

            i also increased the shock ball velocity to 1850

            the speed up mechanic isn't noticable until you get near to max, but those speeds are too fast for close combat as you're just skating around, it doesn't seem to add anything or work for the game

            wall dodging is more balanced vs regular dodging, enough to be useful but not abuseful

            mantling is 100x better, it's short and unintrustive and smooth enough so that it doesn't interfere with game fluidity - you should be able to jump/mantle onto a surface and dodge again once you've landed without much delay same as you could in ut99, dodging mid mantle seems to let you fly up the in the air a bit though

            min walldodge time is in order, you can basically walldodge from the ground(it seems?) and there's no min time between wall dodging, which means you can just fly along the wall like on deck you can get from boots to above amp just by walldodging along the side walls

            edit: dodging off a ledge then dodging off a wall feels great and you can go really, really far

            open to abuse, but with a min walldodge time and max walldodge chaining we might be able to have it as a balanced game mechanic
            Last edited by tigerclaw; 05-31-2014, 05:28 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Yay videos! Nice to see a Deck recreation off the bat
              The movement sounds are distracting, though. They make the game feel heavier than it really is...
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              Comment


                #8
                In my opinion the speedup feature needs to be reversed!
                The increase in speed should occur immediately after you perform a dodge (or maybe a jump).
                It would work like this:
                Right after a dodge your regular movement speed will increase. So if you normally walk on 800, after the dodge you will walk in 900 (let’s say).
                The catch here is that if you don’t perform another dodge, for lets say half a sec, you will start to decelerate. A deceleration of 900 to 800 in 1.5 (maybe 2) seconds is suggested.
                I don't know and at the moment and don’t have the tools that will help me decide if further acceleration should be added if you stich multiple dodges together. But I will propose at least a second chance for more acceleration.
                It is still UT not quake
                Acceleration through jumping is also a good addition, but it should not accelerate you that much, cause jump is easier...
                Last edited by darksinn3r; 05-31-2014, 06:37 AM.
                Maps:||DM-TournamentGrounds||CTF-TitanGuard||DM-RelentlessMachine||
                Weapons:||Tridium Impaler||

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by darksinn3r View Post
                  In my opinion the speedup feature needs to be reversed!
                  The increase in speed should occur immediately after you perform a dodge (or maybe a jump).
                  It would work like this:
                  Right after a dodge your regular movement speed will increase. So if you normally walk on 800, after the dodge you will walk in 900 (let’s say).
                  The catch here is that if you don’t perform another dodge, for lets say half a sec, you will start to decelerate. A deceleration of 900 to 800 in 1.5 (maybe 2) seconds is suggested.
                  I don't know and at the moment and don’t have the tools that will help me decide if further acceleration should be added if you stich multiple dodges together. But I will propose at least a second chance for more acceleration.
                  It is still UT not quake
                  Acceleration through jumping is also a good addition, but it should not accelerate you that much, cause jump is easier...
                  No, that's backwards. The point is to not require people to do annoying dodges just in order to move faster.
                  Unreal Tournament 4 eXpanded MultiPlayer (UT4XMP) efforts
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                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                    No, that's backwards. The point is to not require people to do annoying dodges just in order to move faster.
                    Actually in UT99 dodging within a single flat area wasn't much of an advantage over running(or as it's commonly known straight lining)

                    The advantages come when you use dodging/jumping to cut through maps quickly(over areas that can't be ran over), the better you can do this the better the benefit, knowing when to dodge and when not to ect

                    Having a speed up mechanic just encourages straight lining and actually leaves lowskill players as a disadvantage rather than just learning to dodge

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                      No, that's backwards. The point is to not require people to do annoying dodges just in order to move faster.
                      People will always do annoying dodges, even without a reason. I don’t think there is a GOOD way to counter dodge spamming without breaking a UT game.
                      The only way to reduce dodges is to introduce the cod-like sprint mechanism that will prohibit dodging while in sprint... ahh and also to allow mantling only in sprint…
                      But this way is bad (?)
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                      Weapons:||Tridium Impaler||

                      Comment


                        #12
                        i seem to be able to get stuck on the Ramp on map A. Can you confirm this?
                        Click image for larger version

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                        On this ramp if i just try to go straight up it i get stuck.


                        You mentioned you liked the wall dodge, did you notice you can dodge away from the direction you were traveling? So if you run forward towards a wall at an acute angle, jump against it, then dodge backwards, all of your forward momentum is instantly reversed. I'm not sure how I feel about this, it's a bit strange.
                        Last edited by TGRye; 05-31-2014, 02:15 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Deck looks awesome in the right scale and feels right with the movement shown.
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by tigerclaw View Post
                            Actually in UT99 dodging within a single flat area wasn't much of an advantage over running(or as it's commonly known straight lining)

                            The advantages come when you use dodging/jumping to cut through maps quickly(over areas that can't be ran over), the better you can do this the better the benefit, knowing when to dodge and when not to ect

                            Having a speed up mechanic just encourages straight lining and actually leaves lowskill players as a disadvantage rather than just learning to dodge
                            I completely agree with your post.
                            It will be nice to reward new players with a speed boost after the mandatory mastering of the DODGE
                            Furthermore, from the start of this community, with my impressive number of 16 posts :P, I opposed people that were proposing the most hardcore approach concerning every aspect of UT. The rewarding of movement mastery through speed increase, even though seems a bit dangerous towards the more casual design approach of ut, is a good way and chance to approach new players. This, combined with the weapon balance I have in mind (and will share as soon as I finally get my **** together), might create the best ut game.

                            Also I believe deck requires a major redesign to accommodate the new movement. The distances promote pixel hunting and all the walkways seem very wide (except two :P).
                            I propose a more vertical design approach, especially in the three walkways above the acid pool!
                            Last edited by darksinn3r; 05-31-2014, 07:25 AM.
                            Maps:||DM-TournamentGrounds||CTF-TitanGuard||DM-RelentlessMachine||
                            Weapons:||Tridium Impaler||

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by darksinn3r View Post
                              People will always do annoying dodges, even without a reason. I don’t think there is a GOOD way to counter dodge spamming without breaking a UT game.
                              That's not the point. The point is not requiring it. In UT2004, you move so slow without dodging that it makes no sense to ever do that. But if moving is faster than dodging, then moving around becomes more pleasant (you just press and hold a key, instead of having to do W+turn+DD+Space+W+turn+DD+Space etc.). That way nothing is stopping you from dodging (and you should dodge to, well, dodge fire), but nothing is requiring you to dodge when there are no enemies around.
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